Just a thought that came up recently after thinking about AJATT.

I'm actually starting to think that JLPT 1 is something to aim for AFTER being fluent in Japanese. You know, another certification to add to your resume and without too much effort.

I think one of the hard parts of JLPT studying is getting an idea of how often the words and phrases are used by native speakers. To make up for that, you'll likely fall back on "natural" resources to get that native Japanese.

If that's the case, why not just get native-like fluency first and just use JLPT to fill-in-the-blanks once you feel ready to take the exam?

It's kind of like how it's better to get IT certifications AFTER you've had experience in the workplace, since you'll have a better understanding of the purpose and usage of certain technologies.

On the other hand, someone who passed the IT certification with no experience, might have the paper qualification, but doesn't have enough real-world experience to jump into the workplace without extensive training and re-thinking(and you know how companies these days only want people with experience...:-).

In relation to Japanese, the guy with experience and native fluency will fit in much more easily (and be able to come up to speed very quickly) if hired at a Japanese company.

On the flip side, the JLPT 1 guy with no real-world fluency will stumble and fall on things that the Japanese might consider common sense or basic. They have the paper qualification, but none of the much more valuable real-world experience.

Lastly, even Heisig's system is very similar. It teaches readers to build kanji fluency BEFORE jumping into the field and reading Japanese. With that added experience as your foundation, learning Japanese from reading sentences with kanji becomes attainable and....dare I say it....fun....

Speaking of fluency, what do you think of these definitions of (some kinds of) fluency? http://www.is.wayne.edu/drbowen/CRTVYW99/Guilford.htm - Obviously any definition will only be a guideline since we can never agree on it, but I was surprised at how apt this list was, and wonder if something along these lines can't be applied to clarifying what many of us mean when we talk about 'fluency' (and use them to aid the kinds of clear-cut goals we might aim for).

In terms of "fluency", I basically mean getting to a
level where the JLPT1 exam is more of an afterthought.

It's a certification within reach without too much effort (rather
than having JLPT as the basis of your Japanese learning)

The idea is to let your Japanese reach maturity first
and then build off that experience.

For example, when job hunting, the JLPT1 may get your foot in the door,
but once that doors opens, you'd better be ready....... :-)

In other words, learn to read/write/listen/speak
Japanese with confidence first (i.e. not look like an idiot and waste
someone else's time) and then use the JLPT1 certification as bait for
employers... :-)

Anyway, I was just using job hunting as an example.

chamcham Wrote:If that's the case, why not just get native-like fluency first and just use JLPT to fill-in-the-blanks once you feel ready to take the exam?

Because "native-like fluency" is at least an order of magnitude beyond JLPT1. It takes a lot longer than getting to a reasonably proficient level and it's likely that if you're ever going to need a JLPT certification, you're going to need it well before you've reached the holy grail of "native-like fluency".

Codexus Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:If that's the case, why not just get native-like fluency first and just use JLPT to fill-in-the-blanks once you feel ready to take the exam?

Because "native-like fluency" is at least an order of magnitude beyond JLPT1. It takes a lot longer than getting to a reasonably proficient level and it's likely that if you're ever going to need a JLPT certification, you're going to need it well before you've reached the holy grail of "native-like fluency".

That was my thought. The time when you'd need the JLPT1 ends when you reach real fluency. It's a crutch to prove to employers that you really can speak their language, even though you stumble a bit and have a funny accent. By the time you reach 'native-like' fluency, you'll have enough experience on your resume that it won't matter. (If you can reach that without immersing yourself in the language 24/7, including work, then you're even more amazing and really don't need the JLPT anyhow.)