leosmith Wrote:Learning kanji is a big hurdle, and makes Japanese different to learn than other languages. After messing around with several techniques, many of us have found that learning kanji out of context using Heisig is the most efficient way.

Unfortunately, many people who do this huge and intense exercise, I'll call it a crusade for short, become crusaders. They finish Heisig, and instead of going back to normal language learning techniques, which work quite well in Japanese after one learns kanji by the way, they look for the next crusade. They go for the RTK2 crusade. Or the KO2001 crusade. Or the 10,000 sentence crusade. They continue this isolation, doing their flashcards and hiding behind their computers.

What they will find out, if and when they finally exit the crusade mode, is that they still have a long way to go. To become fluent, you must actually use the language for a great deal of time. With a difficult language like Japanese, probably thousands of hours.

Do those of you on crusades have exit strategies? What will you do to master actually using the language after your crusade? Or will you go on another crusade? Will you ever give up your flashcards? Are you afraid of losing that low-usage vocabulary?

Shirley, many of you have wondered about this. And there are lots of people on crusades here. So maybe some of those who have successfully made it out of the crusade stage can give the masses some tips too.

I "crusade" for the following reasons:

1. I work full time and attend college full time.

2. I don't have consistent access to native Japanese speakers.

I'm a big believer in having a solid foundation. A strong tree needs strong roots type of thing. That means while I am in America I want to focus on developing the strongest foundation possible for when I do get to start actively using the language. The more vocabulary I know and the more speech patterns I've familiar with the less time I'll have to spend learning those things once I actually do get in the position to start using it.

So my exit plan will occur when I move to Japan. I'll still keep up my reviews and add new material but actively using the language in the real world will definitely take priority at that point.

You are saying that if you don't stop using learning techniques after completing RTK1, then you're being isolated, hiding behind your computer, and only learning low-usage vocabulary? I haven't seen anyone like that here. Just a lot of people trying out different techniques with an open mind.

leosmith Wrote:Shirley, many of you have wondered about this.

First of all, don't call me Shirley...

My plan is as follows. Upon exiting the RTK1 Crusade I'll go straight into reading CNN.co.jp and other news sites using the program rikaichan to help me learn the readings of the kanji and get a feel for advanced grammatical use. I'll also get some children's manga with furigana providing me simple sentences to read.

One morning not too long after this, I'll march my lazy ass up to one of my friends who speaks Japanese and beg them to help me...

CKBrown1000 Wrote:First of all, don't call me Shirley...

Airplane, baby!

"You people" and your over generalizations. Excuse me while I go lock myself in my room, bar off all contact with the outside world, staple my mouth shut so as to prevent any accidental production and continue onward toward my next crusade.

activeaero Wrote:1. I work full time and attend college full time.

What will you do after you have graduated and finally ended your low-level crusade for your bachelors, masters, and/or doctorate? You realize you'll still have a long way to go? You crazy crusader you.

Quote:2. I don't have consistent access to native Japanese speakers.

Try skype or Home if you have a PS3.

nest0r Wrote:I haven't seen anyone like that here. Just a lot of people trying out different techniques with an open mind.

Look haaaaarder. They're all around us. Can UC!? There... you see it now don't you? Don't fib... they're watching you.

There is no exit strategy for learning a language. It's a relationship within you. Treat it well and you'll reap the rewards. Put a few bucks in the tank and leave it to rust and all you've done is wasted your time and money.

leosmith Wrote:

leosmith Wrote:Learning kanji is a big hurdle, and makes Japanese different to learn than other languages. After messing around with several techniques, many of us have found that learning kanji out of context using Heisig is the most efficient way.

Unfortunately, many people who do this huge and intense exercise, I'll call it a crusade for short, become crusaders. They finish Heisig, and instead of going back to normal language learning techniques, which work quite well in Japanese after one learns kanji by the way, they look for the next crusade. They go for the RTK2 crusade. Or the KO2001 crusade. Or the 10,000 sentence crusade. They continue this isolation, doing their flashcards and hiding behind their computers.

What they will find out, if and when they finally exit the crusade mode, is that they still have a long way to go. To become fluent, you must actually use the language for a great deal of time. With a difficult language like Japanese, probably thousands of hours.

Do those of you on crusades have exit strategies? What will you do to master actually using the language after your crusade? Or will you go on another crusade? Will you ever give up your flashcards? Are you afraid of losing that low-usage vocabulary?

Shirley, many of you have wondered about this. And there are lots of people on crusades here. So maybe some of those who have successfully made it out of the crusade stage can give the masses some tips too.

just pick up a book and go for it. it's not such a big deal.

just don't be surprised when you have to use a dictionary and guess the meanings of things. it's hard. especially if you push yourself into reading difficult things to soon.

just keep finding L+1 things. find L+1 books. a good example is this one: アルマタ大事典. it's basically 300 1-page essays on interesting subjects ranging from sports to flowers, public figures to weird places. if that's too easy, find someone a bit harder.

the key is to browse the books first, read a few pages, and make sure it's not "too hard." it's important to enjoy what you're doing... otherwise the book becomes a big flashcard =/

I think people crusade in those areas simply because you CAN'T crusade output. If they could, they probably would. There's also the fact that a lot of AJATTers simply underestimate output and believe they will automatically be good at speaking Japanese "once they become good enough". So they keep getting better and better... yet somehow, they become good enough to pass JLPT2 etc, without being able to speak coherently, unlike people who study Japanese in Japan who can speak Japanese very well before they pass JLPT3.

I think it's nice to find a balance, but I don't think it matters much in the end unless you loose dedication. If you're good enough at passive Japanese to pass JLPT1, read a novel, watch the news, you will easily adapt and learn to output in a month or two of active conversation.

leosmith Wrote:

leosmith Wrote:Learning kanji is a big hurdle, and makes Japanese different to learn than other languages. After messing around with several techniques, many of us have found that learning kanji out of context using Heisig is the most efficient way.

Unfortunately, many people who do this huge and intense exercise, I'll call it a crusade for short, become crusaders. They finish Heisig, and instead of going back to normal language learning techniques, which work quite well in Japanese after one learns kanji by the way, they look for the next crusade. They go for the RTK2 crusade. Or the KO2001 crusade. Or the 10,000 sentence crusade. They continue this isolation, doing their flashcards and hiding behind their computers.

What they will find out, if and when they finally exit the crusade mode, is that they still have a long way to go. To become fluent, you must actually use the language for a great deal of time. With a difficult language like Japanese, probably thousands of hours.

Do those of you on crusades have exit strategies? What will you do to master actually using the language after your crusade? Or will you go on another crusade? Will you ever give up your flashcards? Are you afraid of losing that low-usage vocabulary?

Shirley, many of you have wondered about this. And there are lots of people on crusades here. So maybe some of those who have successfully made it out of the crusade stage can give the masses some tips too.

So your argument boils down to A) Heisig-derived techniques only work for learning the kanji, and not any other part of learning Japanese, and B) AJATT/RevTK people use these techniques exclusively for all aspects of language learning, therefore they will suck at Japanese.

I take issue with both points. The first is just meaningless what-if; you got any proof of that? The second is a gross mischaracterization of this community.

There's nothing to see here; move along.

PS: Stop calling me Shirley!

Leosmith, you had a very interesting sentence in your quoted part "instead of going back to normal language learning techniques". Now, why is the normal language learning part supposed to be a goal?

I wanted my goal to stop systematically using pre-generated learning material. I'm already there, with some minor steps I'm planning in the future. Since that, the road I'm on now has no exit, but will eventually end. Now it's a matter of finding material I'll use for 100% comprehensible input mixed with vast amount of material for native input.

For now, that's been line by line breakdown of a drama via SRS, in conjunction with reading the transcription and listening to the audio rips. On top of that, I add new words from this to my vocabulary deck.

Today, I also bought two books in Tokyo that are based on "Toki wo Kakeru Shojo" and "5cm per Second" to complement the time I break down those two movies. I also found transcript books for various dramas which I'll ask my wife buy and send to me should they not exist on dramanote.

So what I'm doing is not necessarily sentence mining, though that may come in time. But I doubt I'll ever go to "traditional language learning methods" ever. Therefore, no exit strategy as I'm now on a long term campaign.

To answer the question in topic: Do I need one?

So called "crusades" are just goals some/most of us try to achieve on our way to the ultimate prize of getting "fluent" (whatever that word means to you) in Japanese. Whats wrong with that?

Its true that there is no other way of learning how to speak a language other than using it but its not required to start speaking at your first lesson. I think of it as doing RTK before & separately from other forms of study, it just feels more natural to be done with one task before starting the other (especially if you want to use natural materials in your studies).

I read and listen to English every day in great amounts but speak very rarely, all because I don't live in any English speaking country. Because of that my speaking ability degrades constantly but it's not a problem since I maintain my vocabulary&comprehension thanks to reading/listening and I can "activate" my production very easily. I did it a few times in my life and I know it doesn't take a lot of time and is very natural. So why should Japanese be any different?

There is a way to Crusade output. Lang-8.

Give up my flashcards? never!... *clutches*... my precious.

But seriously the efficiency makes crusading much more feasible. Goals are an important part of learning and having a crusade to finish gives you a good solid goal to work on. So long as it's actually moving your Japanese foward I see no problem with this.

Sure it gets to a point where you don't need these things anymore or you've simply completed every Japanese learning crusade there is to offer. Well, good for you. The way I see it learning a language is almost a crusade in and of itself. The crusade being learn every word you'll ever need and all the grammar you'll ever need to be able to understand and use those words. How you get there is up to you and you'll figure out where you need to go and what you need to do depending on where you're at.

I like this topic actually. My crusade consists of RtK and KO2001. But maybe I'll find another one after KO2001. Who knows. I like the fast progress you feel compared to doing things AJATT. But most of all I have to admit its the safety and security of doing it on my own instead of interacting with other people that I like. There I said it.

My "crusade" is learning Japanese. Using a SRS is just a way to make that more efficient by not forgetting as much as I would without one.

What exactly are those "normal language learning techniques"? Classes? Not using a SRS? Not studying and just hoping that things will eventually stick?

By comparison, "crusading" seems like a pretty good way to get some results. Death to the heretics!

mezbup Wrote:There is a way to Crusade output. Lang-8.

That's not a crusade! This a crusade, heathen: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...2#pid64392 - If thou canst decipher this sacred text, thou shalt Shirley maketh thyself into a numinous servant of the inscrutable, ineffable 日本語, Lord of all creation.

By the time I'm done "crusading" I'll be in Japan shortly thereafter, so I think that's a pretty solid exit plan. I'll definitely go shopping for groceries and stuff alone once I get there. Since I look Japanese, my goal is going to be to interact with Japanese people in a way that they don't suspect I'm a foreigner.

ocircle Wrote:By the time I'm done "crusading" I'll be in Japan shortly thereafter, so I think that's a pretty solid exit plan. I'll definitely go shopping for groceries and stuff alone once I get there. Since I look Japanese, my goal is going to be to interact with Japanese people in a way that they don't suspect I'm a foreigner.

That isn't going to happen. It will take you a very long time to learn Japanese customs to the level that it won't be blatantly obvious that you're a forigner and... there's always the factor of pitch. Unless you get it down perfectly, they will hear that you're a foreigner. (However, that depends on where in Japan you are, the pitch changes in certain areas and seem less important in some areas).

EDIT: Oh and mezup, lang-8 only teaches you to write Japanese essays (which is pretty easy, you have all the time in the world). It doesn't train conversational creative output at all.

This was orgionally posted in my thread about my studying technique, so I do think it would be nice to read all the comment in context.

The remainder of the post was:

leosmith Wrote:Learning kanji is a big hurdle, and makes Japanese different to learn than other languages. After messing around with several techniques, many of us have found that learning kanji out of context using Heisig is the most efficient way.

Unfortunately, many people who do this huge and intense exercise, I'll call it a crusade for short, become crusaders. They finish Heisig, and instead of going back to normal language learning techniques, which work quite well in Japanese after one learns kanji by the way, they look for the next crusade. They go for the RTK2 crusade. Or the KO2001 crusade. Or the 10,000 sentence crusade. They continue this isolation, doing their flashcards and hiding behind their computers.

What they will find out, if and when they finally exit the crusade mode, is that they still have a long way to go. To become fluent, you must actually use the language for a great deal of time. With a difficult language like Japanese, probably thousands of hours. Crusading hours have value, but may not have as big of an impact on the total number of usage hours that you think.

To learn a language efficiently to fluency, study hours should be a small fraction of usage hours. In the beginning, you will need to study more and use less. In the end, you'll be doing nothing but using. Crusading for too long will take away time you could be actually using the language.

So instead of crusading, one should try to learn things through language usage as much as possible. There are certain things, like study of kanji and grammar, that are most efficiently learned out of context. But for everything else, try to learn in context. Every person is different. I know people who never have to use a single flashcard, not even for vocabulary. I know others that can't learn anything unless they take it out of context. The former have a great advantage over the latter. An individual should spend as little of her time out of context as is practical.

Here's a sample balanced approach.
1) learn to speak the language first, building friendships with Japanese. You don't have to be good in the beginning; nobody is. Just be conversational. Audio programs like Pimsleur, Learn in your car, Michel Thomas, etc are very helpful.
1) Podcasts and other easy listening material are essential to begin to get an ear for the language.
1) Really nail down the kana. Write them out, use flashcards, do whatever it takes at first to get them memorized. Then actually use them by working your way through one of the many kana workbooks available.
2) More conversation. Get a Japanese girlfriend if you can.
2) More listening. Up the level of your listening material, but stay comprehensible.
2) RTK1 with this site, an SRS or paper flashcards. Physically being able to write them quickly and beautifully is a necessity.
2) Start working your way through a good text book. Genki or Japanese for Everyone spring to mind. Read Tae Kim as a supplement to you text. Keep in mind that most people who try to learn grammar by gleaning it wind up studying it anyway.
3) More conversation. Time to get all that grammar into your speech. Surround yourself with Japanese friends and girlfriends. Get intimately involved with the culture.
3) More listening. Try native material. Some TV, movies, radio, etc should be comprehensible enough to be worth your while to listen to by now.
3) Reading & writing. These should be your weakest skills, so don't be surprised if all that kanji work hasn't resulted in immediate success. Using flashcards, learn to read and write all the vocabulary you've learned to this point.
4) More conversation. Keep improving your grammar, and stay involved with the culture.
4) More listening. Try to wean yourself off of easy material, and listen to things a Japanese adult would.
4) Reading. Start off with readers, VOA, or any comprehensible material you can find that has audio. Translations are the best, but mouse over dictionaries are also nice. Listen, read, listen and read, in native and target languages. Figure out a combination that works well for you. As soon as you have good comprehension reading the item with no aids, move on.
4) Writing. Write essays. This will probably help your speech more than anything else. It's best if you have someone to give you a theme and make corrections. Strive for perfect grammar. In the beginning, use all the resources at your disposal to help you. Wean yourself off them with time. Recommend writing as you want to talk, not bookish.
5) Conversation. Enjoy.
5) More listening. It takes a long time to develop good listening skills. Keep it up.
5) Reading. Master newspapers. Read as much as you can fit into your balanced schedule, and listen to the same news that you read. This will help your listening too. It's straight forward, somewhat formal language, beautifully pronounced. Take confidence in knowing many westerners have learned to read newspapers, and make the skill your own.
5) Writing. Enjoy.
6) Conversation. Enjoy.
6) More listening. Movies and TV.
6) Reading. Novels, signs, menus, ads.
6) Writing. Enjoy.
7) Enjoy. If you don't enjoy on a regular basis, expect some decline in skills, but you'll get them back when immersed again.

So, in full context he wasn't knocking the use of SRS over traditional methods at all. He was just warning me that once I get through the early stages it's good to start transitioning out of SRS into real life usage.

SRS is the greatest thing I've ever seen for remembering things. Since I'm studying Kanji it's great, but I can't wait until I'm out of it and start moving on to other things. Although, to keep fresh on the Kanji I imagine that I will never get out of it. The Kanji will instead just start to get so far spaced out that I won't have to do more than a few a day.

Codexus Wrote:Death to the heretics!

...do you play "Knights of Honor?"

Tobberoth Wrote:

ocircle Wrote:By the time I'm done "crusading" I'll be in Japan shortly thereafter, so I think that's a pretty solid exit plan. I'll definitely go shopping for groceries and stuff alone once I get there. Since I look Japanese, my goal is going to be to interact with Japanese people in a way that they don't suspect I'm a foreigner.

That isn't going to happen. It will take you a very long time to learn Japanese customs to the level that it won't be blatantly obvious that you're a forigner and... there's always the factor of pitch. Unless you get it down perfectly, they will hear that you're a foreigner. (However, that depends on where in Japan you are, the pitch changes in certain areas and seem less important in some areas).

EDIT: Oh and mezup, lang-8 only teaches you to write Japanese essays (which is pretty easy, you have all the time in the world). It doesn't train conversational creative output at all.

Oh come now. Being totally undetectable in a store ought to be no problem. I'm not saying I'm going to go after Japanese citizenship -- now that would be absolute madness.

@wonderflex

If you keep up with your reviews, the SRS will eventually ween you off materials. I don't doubt there are people out there SRSing for the sake of it, but they'd only make a minuscule part of the population. Most people are here with a goal, though. When they reach their goal or get lost they come here, and other places, for advice on where to go next. Having a goal, and isolating yourself while on a crusade are two totally different things. Though it has some good advice, the post is pretty assumptive even when taken in context.

Leosmith expects reading to be my weakest skill, but that I can get a girlfriend first. A girlfriend for the purpose of using her for her language. What a ** cad!

Besides, a bookworm like me being happy not reading? Bwahahaha! That's so unacceptable. I live in Maine. I have no easy road to Japan or really to anywhere interesting. It's always been "open a book, open the world" here.

Rather than waisting time here, I'mma gonna go back to my Core 2000 crusade, where I'm actually learning to read Japanese sentences aloud and leave the womanizing to those who go for that kinda thing.

wildweathel Wrote:Leosmith expects reading to be my weakest skill, but that I can get a girlfriend first. A girlfriend for the purpose of using her for her language. What a ** cad!

Besides, a bookworm like me being happy not reading? Bwahahaha! That's so unacceptable. I live in Maine. I have no easy road to Japan or really to anywhere interesting. It's always been "open a book, open the world" here.

Rather than waisting time here, I'mma gonna go back to my Core 2000 crusade, where I'm actually learning to read Japanese sentences aloud and leave the womanizing to those who go for that kinda thing.

If you don't know, this may be of some use to you:

http://www.maine-japan.org/

It's the Japan-American Society of Maine. They post activity calendars and have exchange programs. Seeing how there are 11 exchange programs ranging from middle school through college, you should be able to find some people who you can talk and study with.

Finding a Japanese girlfriend is all well and good if you're single. :X

dizmox Wrote:Finding a Japanese girlfriend is all well and good if you're single. :X

My response was that I would need to ask my wife first.

Quote:Surround yourself with Japanese ...girlfriends

So maybe if become a lesbian...especially a promiscuous one....then I'll finally achieve that elusive fluency.