Long post, realize a lot for a new guy, if you can read it all, I give you props..

Ok, so I have tried to study Japanese several times in my life. I lived there as a child for several years, have visited several times, and still don't know much of any Japanese. I am still thinking to some degree that it is impossible for me to learn another language, but I am going to give it another shot anyway.

At one time I studied some of the Pimsluer, and read some of the Genki, so I have idea of some verb conjugation, and some words, so while I can recognize them when typed are spoken I likely have forgotten what they mean.

Anyway, I am the kind of person that is always open to new ideas, especially ones that make sense and don't just go with something that has been passed down just becuase its the way it has always been done. I am very interested in the RTK1 but I still need a little convincing and answers.

1. With my extreme limited amount of Japanese knowledge it feels like I am not actually studying Japanese. I am pretty good at studying via flash cards, so I have no doubt that if I put my mind to it I can pound through 30-50 a day. Going with the AJAT theory I should just be studying the kanji and not Japanese..this seems hard to do. How much time should I devote to learning the RTK, and how much should I spend learning actual Japanese? If I am learning Japanese and run into new Kanji or old ones I learned through RTK should I try using the readings or just stick with what I've learned through RTK?

Like if I learned the Kanji for "eye" Now in my studies I learn how to say "eye" in Japanese. Now when I review the kanji in RTK should I associate it with "eye" in english or try to say "eye" in Japanese when I review it.

2. Does knowing all 2000 kanji really help you when it comes to learning Japanese. I know when I was trying to learn japanese, brutally trying to force 100 verbs into my head it was lost very fast. Is this supposed to help with that?

3. What book/website would you recommoned to use while doing the RTK? Again like I said in my first question, I want to learn japanese at the same time.

4. How many of you started RTK with no Japanese knowledge and have seen success?

5. How many people have really become fluent using AJAT?

6. Once done with RTK, I have read the some people suggest Tae Kim. I have read this site, and it seems like it would involve looking up a lot of kanji readings. Do people use software that lets you easily look things up...please let me know if you do!

Basically, with my total failure to learn any other language during my lifetime, despite living in several different countries, I have this idea that something in my head just doesn't let me put things together like others do.

Anyway, any help or encouragement is appreciated.

WontStop Wrote:1. With my extreme limited amount of Japanese knowledge it feels like I am not actually studying Japanese. I am pretty good at studying via flash cards, so I have no doubt that if I put my mind to it I can pound through 30-50 a day. Going with the AJAT theory I should just be studying the kanji and not Japanese..this seems hard to do. How much time should I devote to learning the RTK, and how much should I spend learning actual Japanese? If I am learning Japanese and run into new Kanji or old ones I learned through RTK should I try using the readings or just stick with what I've learned through RTK?

I'll be frank. You aren't really studying Japanese. But thats ok. Its preparatory work. And because its preparatory work, it will probably work better for you if you devote your time to finishing RtK in its entirety first *before* starting to learn real Japanese. You don't have to do it this way, but its probably the easiest way. It will be worth it though, because.... [continued below]

Quote:2. Does knowing all 2000 kanji really help you when it comes to learning Japanese. I know when I was trying to learn japanese, brutally trying to force 100 verbs into my head it was lost very fast. Is this supposed to help with that?

[continued].....it transforms Kanji from a bunch of squiggles on a page ('how the hell would I ever recognise this?!") into something you are very familiar with. I have never actually studied the traditional way (I started out with RtK), but I have heard that kanji-filled texts present a real pain for traditional learners. For those who finish RtK, its a common complaint to hear "children's books are way harder to read than normal books. So much hiragana! I just wish there were more kanji..."

Quote:3. What book/website would you recommoned to use while doing the RTK? Again like I said in my first question, I want to learn japanese at the same time.

You're better off focusing on RtK, imo. But if you don't want to, Tae Kim's grammar guide is a good place to start for a beginner. Its what I did straight after RtK.

Quote:4. How many of you started RTK with no Japanese knowledge and have seen success?

Me. I did RtK, then Tae Kim then KO2001 (a fairly popular book in this forum. Basically just a collection of 3000 progressively more difficult sentences that introduce you to around 4000 words of vocabulary.) I can now read Manga and enjoy it without the aid of a dictionary, I've played Chrono Trigger in Japanese (again, sans dictionary). With a little effort I can read most things.

Quote:5. How many people have really become fluent using AJAT?

Khatzumoto, the AJATT author. I'm sure there are a few on this forum too. I'm not fluent yet, but I've reached the stage where I know that its inevitable; just a matter of time.

Quote:6. Once done with RTK, I have read the some people suggest Tae Kim. I have read this site, and it seems like it would involve looking up a lot of kanji readings. Do people use software that lets you easily look things up...please let me know if you do!

Online dictionaries (Yahoo, Sanseido...I don't use them so I don't know the links) can be helpful. I use an offline dictionary reader (known as an EPWING reader). Try and search the forum for some discussion on that, if you want.

Quote:Basically, with my total failure to learn any other language during my lifetime, despite living in several different countries, I have this idea that something in my head just doesn't let me put things together like others do.

Nonsense. Once you start the process, learning a second language is inevitable. All you have to do is not stop. You can do it

6 months ago i felt the same way you did. Always struggled with new languages despite some decent exposure.

I'm only 6 months ahead of you but here are my responses/thoughts:

1. Really read what Heisig/RTK aims to achieve. Once you truly understand its purpose you won't be concerned about "not actually studying japanese". My personal advice would be to do RTK Lite first and nothing else. Others will definitely have a different opinion on just doing Lite. I myself did it all and wish i'd just done the lite version as I kind of felt kanjied out after doing it (no major regrets though - would have just liked to have got to meatier stuff sooner). However i strongly suggest that whether you do the lite or full version just do it all and do not do anything else.

2. 110% YES. You will learn to hate words just written in hiragana and just loooove kanji.

3. just do RTK only - nothing else. Again my personal advice is just do RTK lite first. Then you can start something like KO2001 and continue to add kanji on the side. Using an SRS and something like KO2001 will eliminate that "brute forcing" effect. Add a small dash of the Iverson method and you'll be laughing.

4. I started with extremely limited knowledge (although many wasted hours of japanese study) and have seen huge improvement in reading and comprehension ability after completing RTK. I mean really HUGE!!!!

5. this is the great unkown question

6. if you've finished RTK (or even the lite version) then this will not be an issue and will actually be enjoyable. Also rikaichan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rikaichan) is your friend and i find Denshi Jisho very user friendly for such a technophobe as me.

Like i said i was in a similar situation 6 months ago. I have finally realised there is no "ONE" method (and that includes AJATT - no disrespect). You just need to find what works for you. You will get invaluable advice/ideas from the users on this forum (as I have) and when you start to put together the plan that is right for you, it all just starts clicking and you will kick yourself for not working it out sooner.

Thank you for the encouragment! I am done with my first fifty and I have them down, but I will see if I ca still remember them tomorrow.

When you guys memorize the stories, do you memorize them word for word, or do you just kinda generalize the stories?

Rooboy Wrote:... and when you start to put together the plan that is right for you, it all just starts clicking and you will kick yourself for not working it out sooner.

This happens to me so often as I continuously learn how to learn better. I make an adjustment or read some advice and I'm like "Why didn't I realize this already??" - I'm sure the person who invented the wheel kicked themselves for not thinking of it sooner. Perhaps wondered why it wasn't already invented. ;p

WontStop Wrote:Thank you for the encouragment! I am done with my first fifty and I have them down, but I will see if I ca still remember them tomorrow.

When you guys memorize the stories, do you memorize them word for word, or do you just kinda generalize the stories?

I think the important thing about the story is trying to visualize it, not the words as written. You're not trying to rote-learn the stories, you're trying to create an association between the key-word and the primitives. I think Heisig uses the term "imaginative memory".

This can be hard, especially for some of the abstract keywords, but if you get this right, you will remember the kanji long after you've forgotten the words of the story.

Gotcha...I have been reading more online and it seems that some recommend RevTK lite...anyone here use that instead of the complete RTK1?

WontStop Wrote:When you guys memorize the stories, do you memorize them word for word, or do you just kinda generalize the stories?

Image, image, image, not memorizing stories.

I wanted to point out that there are possible exceptions in some ways. The way something is said, and what exactly is said, can be part of the specific image of your story. This is different than memorizing the story word for word. For example, just today I learned the kanji for 'investigate.' Somehow when I hear the word investigate I think of a Dave Chappelle stand-up. He's talking about strip clubs and says something like, "If someone came up to me and said 'Hey! Heeeey! (the man points) Don't go in there, there are #breasts# in there!' I'd be like a white guy in a horror movie--'I'd better investigate!'"

So, I made my story to be part of a horror movie, and I imagine myself in that situation saying (in the Dave Chappele white-guy-impersonation voice) "I'd better investigate!" It sticks well, and helps me remember that specific keyword.

Tzadeck Wrote:

WontStop Wrote:When you guys memorize the stories, do you memorize them word for word, or do you just kinda generalize the stories?

Image, image, image, not memorizing stories.

I wanted to point out that there are possible exceptions in some ways. The way something is said, and what exactly is said, can be part of the specific image of your story. This is different than memorizing the story word for word. For example, just today I learned the kanji for 'investigate.' Somehow when I hear the word investigate I think of a Dave Chappelle stand-up. He's talking about strip clubs and says something like, "If someone came up to me and said 'Hey! Heeeey! (the man points) Don't go in there, there are #breasts# in there!' I'd be like a white guy in a horror movie--'I'd better investigate!'"

So, I made my story to be part of a horror movie, and I imagine myself in that situation saying (in the Dave Chappele white-guy-impersonation voice) "I'd better investigate!" It sticks well, and helps me remember that specific keyword.

So I looked up the keyword investigate. It apparently uses the kanji for tree and shelf, so in order to remember how to write these two things, I thought you need to incorporate it into the story. Your dave cheappele story(I love Dave Chappele) doesn't say anything about those. S

WontStop Wrote:Gotcha...I have been reading more online and it seems that some recommend RevTK lite...anyone here use that instead of the complete RTK1?

RtK Lite is good if you're in a real hurry to get a decent amount of kanji knowledge. If you have the time and determination though, there's really no reason not to go through all of RtK1, it does cover the 常用漢字 which represent the kanji the Japanese government consider "official" and "common". Since I didn't do RtK Lite, I can't say how much more often you will run into unknown kanji, but if you plan to ever pass JLPT1, you will need to learn all of the 常用漢字 anyway, seems like a good idea to get all of them out of the way immediately.

WontStop Wrote:So I looked up the keyword investigate. It apparently uses the kanji for tree and shelf, so in order to remember how to write these two things, I thought you need to incorporate it into the story. Your dave cheappele story(I love Dave Chappele) doesn't say anything about those. S

Ah, what I just relayed was not my story, I was just saying why I used specific words from Dave Chappele in my story. I explained, "I made my story to be part of a horror movie, and I imagine myself in that situation saying (in the Dave Chappele white-guy-impersonation voice) "I'd better investigate!"

The kanji looks like this: 査. It is a tree on top of a knick-knack shelf and I wanted to emphasize the position of the tree in the kanji since the shelf primitive is usually on the right, not the bottom. The story is like this: I find one of those cliche horror movie 'You will die in 3 days!' messages carved into the little tree that I keep on my shelf. Rather than go to the police or hide somewhere I do the stereotypical white guy thing and say "I'd better investigate!"

The inclusion of the shelf shows how important actually imagining the story is. The shelf really doesn't have any important plot connection to my story, but it still sticks because I imagine a little tree on a shelf very vividly (in fact, a specific one at my firends house). That way I don't forget it in the same way I might if I didn't actually imagine it.

I shared this story, but really it's very personal. When I heard 'investigate' I can link it very strongly to horror movies in my mind thanks to the Chappelle stand up. Most people don't share this connection.

-I had little knowledge of Japanese when I started with the Heisig course, I'm at 500, and I really think it helps when you're figuring out what a sentence means.

-I don't think AJATT would fit wit my life, because what I am doing right now, as a Spanish native speaker, is All English all the time, and it's unintentional. Because I'm majoring in International Relations, everything I should read is in English (and I actually prefer reading in English because many translations from English books are a little crappy), I can't stop watching the news because that's a very important part of my education, I do watch Japanese news, but of course I don't get anything.

-And I also feel that If I stop doing stuff in English, my English skills will drop. My classmates who come from bilingual schools like the German or French High School or those who studied abroad languages like Russian once told me: OMG, I'm forgetting Russian/German because I haven't practiced for some time.
So I really don't want to lose what I've got. Of course I listen and watch Japanese programs, but I know it's not enough.

It depends on your lifestyle the convenience of AJATT, but in theory I think it's a good method.

quick question...how do you have Anki set up the best way...I mean the 4 options you have involving if the cards are shown in order or random?

I think its best to have them shown in random. If its done in order, its kinda like cheating to me

WontStop Wrote:quick question...how do you have Anki set up the best way...I mean the 4 options you have involving if the cards are shown in order or random?

Long answer

My Kanji/AJATT-sentences deck:
new-card-order: order added
new-card-place: after all other cards
review-order: order due
failed-cards: 10 minutes

Rationale: I review my new cards down to empty every day, so it really shouldn't matter what order I review them in--later reviews are randomized. I do new cards at the end, so if I'm time-limited (currently not a problem) new cards don't hurt my reviews. Reviewing the cards in the order they're due means that the cards that have been waiting longest get first dibs on my time. There's a very small theoretical benefit to the scheduling algorithm from doing this, but it's honestly small. Failed cards get at least a 10 minute delay after re-learning--this ensures they're well and truly gone from my short-term memory.

My Core 2000 deck (2000 example sentences, audio and text):
new-card-order: order added
new-card-place: after all other cards
review-order: largest interval first
failed-cards: custom (4 minutes)
(Not one of the four you asked about, but my leech threshold is 6 lapses, not the standard 16.)

Rationale: This is a "as much time as I like" deck. I'm not trying to master every single sentence--only the reasonably easy ones. The first two options hold back new material while I'm reviewing. I expect to run out of energy, motivation or time each day, so I prioritize holding on to the things I know best (longest interval). If I fail something more than six times after initially learning it, it's removed from circulation--such a sentence is beyond my current level and reviewing it would be a waste of time. So far, that's only happened to less than a percent of what I've attempted, so it's not as aggressive as it sounds.

When recovering a neglected RTK deck:
New cards per day is set to zero.
Review-order: smallest interval first
Failed-cards: after all other cards

This is painful. Do your reviews. But, if you don't, here's how I got back on. (In my defense, I was on vacation without electricity. I continued to learn kanji using index cards and later merged the two decks together. I learned about 400 in two weeks that way. It beats stalling, but is not as easy as using Anki.)

Ideally, Anki would have an option that sorts by decay rate (proportional to retrievability and inversely proportional to interval), but lacking that, smallest-first seems the best choice. Of course, this means failing a lot of cards; my first session was something like 40% retained. Once the reviews were done, I focused on re-learning the failed ones (which fortunately was a lot faster than learning them in the first place). A couple of days later I was back to learning new ones.

After working up to 100 in a day and a half, I have decided to go to the RevTK Lite..if I can figure out how to use it (If anyone can give me a walk through that would be awesome..all I get out of what I have found so far is I download a script that works with firefox..).

My research(of which I could have spent learning Japanese I know) has lead me to conclude that learning all 2000 will not serve me well in starting to learn vocab and reading/listening to Japanese things...the 1000 kanji is more than enough.

I just feel like I am wasting time when I learn the Kanji Gall Bladder...seriously?? Gall Bladder?

Wontstop- possibly like yourself I want to make some progress with speaking/understanding as a priority compromising on the number of kanji learnt.

If you haven't found it already there is an explanation of how to switch to RTK lite on the RTK1 section under the "New/alternative strategies for learning Kanji" thread. The following hopefully will provide the necessary link:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3347

I used the instructions successfully and am making the switch due to time constraints but there does not seem to be much written about how taking this approach has worked out.

One thing I have already come across is that some kanji are made up of previously introduced elements which have been skipped and for which you obviously have no association. I am not sure how best to handle this or whether it undermines the whole idea of not following the kanji in the order laid out.

If no feed back is received I will consider starting a new thread on RTK lite on RTK1

Woelpad made a list of 92 non-JLPT2 kanji that would needed for RTK Lite as primitives. Perhaps this is what you need?

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...2#pid14602

Thanks for the link. I don't get what you do when say the kanji for morning is made up of mist and moon but "mist" has not been seen before and you have no mnemonic for it.

You might want to ask in the RTKLite thread where someone will know about adding individual cards to RTKLite on this site, if that's possible.

fyi I believe there is also a shared RTKLite Anki deck. If the additional 92 kanji aren't already in that list, they'd be easy to add.

Sorry, I didn't use RevTK Lite. But I believe others have finished it.

Thanks for the reply and information. I'll ask a question on that thread.

WontStop Wrote:...so while I can recognize them when typed are spoken I likely have forgotten what they mean.

I had the same experience. This is where AJAT comes in...it's best to talk with other people, but that can be difficult when most of your vocab can't help you communicate about abstract ideas. Particularly, I have problems with the speed and tempo of Japanese speech, and just making out the words in a long sentence -- even when I know them! I use the software "RosettaStone", which helps fill in the gap. Besides being able to do the lessons as given, I practice extra during the lessons to try to say things at real speed myself -- that seems to help.

WontStop Wrote:I am very interested in the RTK1 but I still need a little convincing and answers.

I haven't finished RTK, but already I notice it is easier to pick up new kanji because I recognize the *meaning* of primitives as learned from RTK. It's true, you shouldn't focus on learning new kanji (much) outside RTK. But I already knew a lot of the kanji in Rosetta Stone anyway, because of previous learning and because I was already into it. I don't think picking up some new kanji in there hurts my RTK. I also flip randomly through a kanji workbook I have for kanji I have done in RTK and learn some related compounds and phrases. If it's all *related*, it helps things "stick" for me!

WontStop Wrote:How much time should I devote to learning the RTK, and how much should I spend learning actual Japanese?

Spend most of your time on RTK, up to however many new kanji you think you should learn in a day. That varies widely from person to person, depending on how easily you memorize and how busy you are with other commitments. It's important to work on RTK *regularly* -- that is far more important than how many kanji you can squeeze into one session.

WontStop Wrote:If I am learning Japanese and run into new Kanji or old ones I learned through RTK should I try using the readings or just stick with what I've learned through RTK?

Readings drive me crazy! I never could remember all those, anyway -- I tend to remember whole words. So, focus on RTK and do other things to increase your vocabulary. Finding ways to use new words in speech and writing -- or using other methods like sentence-mining, software, or textbooks -- will help words "stick". You learn the kanji used in a word by recognition -- or even better, because the Heisig primitives help it to "just make sense" -- and you learn how to *say* the word through usage. Knowing a word always implies knowing how to say it. It's pretty rare that you look at a word, recognize its meaning, and don't know how to say the word!

Surely someday I will have to hunker down and learn the range of readings for each kanji, and rules on how to guess a reading in a new word. But I'll be happy to put that off as long as possible!

WontStop Wrote:Now when I review the kanji in RTK should I associate it with "eye" in english or try to say "eye" in Japanese when I review it.

When I review the RTK kanji, I only use the meanings. As for saying the correct Japanese reading, as explained above, I worry about that when I have an actual *word* (to read, say, or write). Otherwise, it's just rote study, and you already know what I think about trying to remember the readings of kanji!

WontStop Wrote:Does knowing all 2000 kanji really help you when it comes to learning Japanese?

Yes, because you can't just write, you have to read -- and you can't read if you don't know kanji. Also, learning verb conjugations is more difficult without knowing both the *dictionary form* and the *stem* (kanji). At least that has been the case for me.

WontStop Wrote:What book/website would you recommoned to use while doing the RTK?...I want to learn japanese at the same time.

Me, too. I don't think I could ever stick to the kanji without tying it to other stuff. I previously mentioned The Rosetta Stone (software). But you can't go far with that without grammar instruction, and every once in a while there's a kanji blooper. Here's some tools I use:

* The Rosetta Stone (software) -- for the immersion, and because you can test yourself; try not to pay full-price; check Amazon and eBay, and if you have PayPal, I notice a lot of coupons lately

* A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters (book) by Kenneth G. Henshall -- so you can look up unfamiliar kanji if you don't know a word (I no longer use it for learning new kanji, though)

* The Handbook of Japanese Verbs: A Kodansha Dictionary (book) by Taeko Kamiya -- great for learning and practicing verb conjugations, looking up verbs to find out which conjugation classification they're in, and looking up sentence patterns that you want to write or say

* Random House Japanese-English English-Japanese Dictionary (book) -- unfortunately, it's romanized (though it also has the kanji), but it has a *lot* more terms (50k) than the ones that don't romanize; there's no good alternative; also no computer terms because of the age, and for more than "website" and "email", the only alternatives are technical dictionaires that cost hundreds of dollars; there appears to be a newer version, though Amazon doesn't have any right now

* Langenscheidt Pocket Dictionary Japanese (book) -- more terms (40k) than most full-size books, bright yellow vinyl cover, compact; between these two dictionaries, I can find most words

* Denshi Jisho (online dictionary search) -- Japanese-English and English-Japanese; easily add to your search box

* Moji -- Firefox extension to look up words and kanji; give definitions, readings, strokes, etc

* SurvivalPhrases.com (downloadable audio podcasts) -- each lesson covers a few related phrases

* Japanese for Busy People (text + workbook) -- I only use the books occasionally, but the audio is great, because it's challenging; though they say vocab beforehand, the adult conversations are at full-speed, so this will help with your listening skills; note that "ga" is *often* barely pronounced, like "nga" or "na" (which I hear occasionally in Rosetta Stone -- "kago" (basket) being pronounced "kano"), and which I think is a regional accent -- perhaps western Japan, per friends; mine came with CDs, so I used software to extract all the individual tracks, and had to rename them by hand to fit the lessons -- it was a pain, but worth it; get the "kana" version, which quickly moves away from romaji pronunciations

* Anki (electronic flashcard software) -- you add your own decks and cards (which you can do different ways), and you can extract out all the "facts" (individual card data) to HTML for printing

Wow, that is way more than I meant to write, and I did not even mention all the books I was using before I started RTK! The ones (books) I listed are the minimum, I think.

WontStop Wrote:After working up to 100 in a day and a half, I have decided to go to the RevTK Lite..if I can figure out how to use it (If anyone can give me a walk through that would be awesome..all I get out of what I have found so far is I download a script that works with firefox..).

My research(of which I could have spent learning Japanese I know) has lead me to conclude that learning all 2000 will not serve me well in starting to learn vocab and reading/listening to Japanese things...the 1000 kanji is more than enough.

I just feel like I am wasting time when I learn the Kanji Gall Bladder...seriously?? Gall Bladder?

Just thought I should throw this in before you get too far along.

I'm at frame 557 and for the past two days I've considered switching over to RtK Lite. It seemed like a very attractive option as it covers approximately 93% of what you would read in common material in half of the time. (I get this percentage from another forum post where somebody posted a frequency chart for all of the Kanji on all of wikipedia).

Only 7% of the text will be unknown with only 1,000ish Kanji sounds pretty sweet - and like the logical thing to do. I couldn’t' sleep much though last night and I was dwelling on Kanji for a few hours while laying in bed (something that is happening more often), and this is how I look at it now: If I complete RtK Lite I will only be missing 7% of the Kanji, but that 7% will be comprised of nearly 1000 character.

Let's imagine that I'm out in the real world trying to read something. Using this logic, for every 100 words I read there is a good chance that I won't know 7 of them. That's seven of the 1000 words I haven't learned. So, I write them down on a piece of paper, take them home and add them to my SRS. Great! Now I might not know what the thing Iw as reading meant and as a bonus I only have to experience this situation a minimum of another 141 times (1000-7 I just learned=993. 993/7=141).

So, as a person who was in the same boat as you a few days ago I suggest that you just do as I'm going to do and suck it up. If Japanese isn't your first language then you're already handicapped enough - no sense adding to it.

Oh, and a side note. As of this very moment, what good does knowing any of the Kanji do for you if you can’t say them. Knowing how to write “see” is no more useful then knowing how to write “gall bladder.” That’s like saying that it’s more useful to know how to write vowels in English then it is to know how to write the letter “z.” Sure, I’ve only used it once in this post, but what happens if I ever do need to? It sure would be nice to have it.

I sometimes think it might be better to just learn all the primitives first and then just make up stories as you encounter the kanji. I mean after doing RTK there are a lot of keywords I can't remember, and I end up just breaking the kanji down into primitives to remember the words.

IceCream Wrote:btw... don't buy rosetta stone unless you are rich. It is obscenely priced, and if you look around, you can get a cracked copy. The software is really good, but in this case, just dont buy it. Its not worth quite that much.

To Wonderflex: i think you are overestimating what RTK1 does. RTK doesn't teach you words at all. When you go to read a book, you'll be able to read 0% of the words anyway. You will have a rough guide to what the word might mean, but it's not a substitute. So don't sweat it about the other 7% of kanji you don't recognise immediately.

To TerryS: i don't think you need to force yourself to learn every possible reading of a kanji, just learn the readings in context. You will be able to form connections between them quick enough in your mind when you read them.

I did say, "Oh, and a side note. As of this very moment, what good does knowing any of the Kanji do for you if you can’t say them. Knowing how to write “see” is no more useful then knowing how to write “gall bladder."

I fully understand that you can't "read" jack after you get through RtK - you just know how to write them. When I was refering to "reading" in my example I meant if you were to take RtK Lite and then afterward use those Kanji to learn how read with.

I don't see it as good to know 1000ish frequently used Kanji with 1000ish standard Kanji floating out there that you've can't recognize because you've never seen them. It's as I said, why handicap yourself anymore than you have to?

The ultimate choice will be up to each individual but having weighed the pros and cons for the last few days I'm not sure it's worth it to build upon this weaker foundation. Maybe it really is though.