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Done. Hooray!
I think I'll pass on RTK3 and just pick up the rest as I go along.
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Will do.
At the moment:
Correct Answers
Mature cards: 88.9% (160 of 180)
Young cards: 92.6% (7629 of 8243)
The deck's only 1.6 months old so I haven't tested many mature cards yet, hopefully that first percentage should go up with practice.
Edited: 2009-09-30, 1:08 pm
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I've never actually seen a compelling reason not to use mnemonics. Everyone seems to assume that once you learn a kanji using a mnemonic, you're stuck having to use that mnemonic to recall the kanji every time you have to use it, forever. Its simply not true. It just means you don't have to spend hours and hours learning by rote. mnemonics allow you to plough through a lot faster and save your wrist some strain. I was incredibly pleased when I discovered heisig, because I had been using mnemonic memory systems for over 2 years to remember just about everything. I can still recall a list of 20 random objects I've read twice in my life (both occasions 2 years ago) backwards and forwards, using a mnemonic system not dissimilar from heisig's. Its a lot easier with concrete things than some of the abstract concepts that kanji convey, but its not that hard really.
Mnemonics used correctly will only help you. The key is to make them as vivid as possible. They should be funny, disgusting , sexual, absurd anything that will resonate with you. If you actually find yourself laughing at the image of a mnemonic you've thought up, it's more likely to stick than if you've just read the story and tried to memorise it.
Chances are, you're not saving time by not using mnemonics in my experience.
But what ever floats your boat. Its just heisigs entire method is so hinged on the mnemonics, it seems if you're just going to learn them by rote you could just get a list of kanji from the internet somewhere and do the same thing.
Edited: 2009-10-13, 6:21 pm
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I wonder what the OP's success rate is with reviewing right now?
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"RTK without the mnemonics" isn't RTK. I'm trying to think of a comparison; maybe "AJATT five hours a week", or something.
Not to say that I think the approach is off-track. My experience was that there came a point at which I'd gotten enough of a feel for how kanji work that mnemonics were unnecessary and unhelpful (Giant_Enemy_Crab, would you use a mnemonic to remember a three-digit number, or that your weak point can be attacked for massive damage?).
~J
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Honestly I couldn't be bothered to read ALL THE WAY through this thread, but just wanted to add my 2 cents.
The main part of the Heisig system that benefited me was simply the keywords set up with component analysis all tied in and introduced in a systematically as building blocks.
SOME of the kanji, yes I will use mnemonics, but in all honesty, most of them i just remember the keywords for the parts and sometimes the kanji as a whole, I just try to get through as quickly as possible.
I have finished RTK once already quite quickly with good retention rates, and had some stuff come up in my life causing my reviews to pile up too much after a couple months of doing nothing so i decided to simply wipe my progress and start again, using the same systematic approach instead of slugging my way through 1400 reviews and probably a large failed pile.
If I could not remember the kanji without a mnemonic, i would THEN use a mnemonic, but I didn't waste my time trying to get an image into my head until i knew that I needed to. On my second round through so far all my reviews have been 98% and up even though it has been a few months, so it does work for me, I think it's just a matter of how much some people need mnemonics compared to others.
A good friend of mine that is also studying japanese, was introduced by me to RTK and used the exact same method as I did, without telling me at first. One day we were discussing RTK and he admitted to not really use many mnemonics, but just recall the pieces needed to make up the kanji almost like a li st, same as me when he couldn't recall the kanji as a whole, and only using mnemonics in the most dire of circumstances.
He is now on RTK3.
Point is, I think the main strength of RTK is the systematic approach, with the keywords already laid out for us. The component analysis is really the only reason I decided to do RTK and it worked for me, and with less work than trying to make up stories for every kanji.
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I've met lots of people and lots of skills, so you could be one.
But.... if this is the forum by which you validate yourself, you might find something flashier. A friend is working on 1,000 digits of pi...
Happy kanji!
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I will act as the voice of dissent in this thread, and say: Based on my reasoning and experience, I don't believe that it's possible to complete RTK w/o the 'stories'--at least, not as fast or as easily as one would do so with those imaginative associations, nor with an acceptable retention rate w/o a tonne of unnecessary work. Of course, if someone claims to have success with it, my believing them or not should have no impact on them, nor should it prevent others from analyzing and experimenting and deciding for themselves.
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Yes.
I'd say 7/10 fall into the "can write this straight away" category (ie. native speed), 2/10 I'll stall on for a bit, and 1/10 I'll fail.
Edited: 2009-10-21, 11:08 am
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Ok, I timed properly and I did 55 in 10 minutes. Overestimated a bit >.>.
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Slightly deviating from the thread topic but not much.
This has been bugging me for about some time now: in the RTK Heising specifically states, that you need to spend considerable time on preparing your story for the Kanji and never look at the Kanji as it is, never let the elements "speak for themselves". However, I found I've been doing just that with all the Kanji: I started using just compact sentences with primitivenames rather than the whole story. I wonder whether that's wrong. As for the Kanji at the very beginning (up to frame 150-200), even that short sentences faded out now (as if not needed at all), and just the picture of the character immediately springs to mind.
I do get confused sometimes at my current level (frame 960) with multi-primitive Kanji, but maybe because they are just that difficult (and trying to solve it with simple Anki drilling). Will it get even worse as I go over the latter half of the book? I just assumed my imaginative, picture memory isn't working as well for me as the word memory.
Any thoughts appreciated.
