Google says they are mostly tech jobs. I found one Japanese-Chinese interpreter and a sales position, but there must be more.

http://www.n-ms.co.jp/solution/global_2008.html
http://china.alaworld.com/modules.php?na...%81%5B%83t
http://www.rock-well.co.jp/job.html
http://kigyou.jobdirect.jp/word/日本語能力/1
https://www.acaric.jp/modules/acaricuser...137&func=1
https://jobs.gaijinpot.com/japan-guide/i...b_id/31795

Although sitting the JLPT won't make you any better, I think it is a good thing to aim for and also it provides some proof to those who haven't met you or heard you speak Japanese that you can at least obtain a recognised qualification.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't get where all the JLPT hate comes from. The only thing I hate about it is that it's only offered once a year (2x in Japan).

I don't like it because it does not measure Japanese ability. There's too many people out there with JLPT1 who talk like shit.

It doesn't test speaking ability, but I'd like to see someone pass the listening and reading sections without ability. I don't think you cram around that - your reading & listening is either at a high level or it isn't.

vosmiura Wrote:

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't get where all the JLPT hate comes from. The only thing I hate about it is that it's only offered once a year (2x in Japan).

I don't like it because it does not measure Japanese ability. There's too many people out there with JLPT1 who talk like shit.

It doesn't test speaking ability, but I'd like to see someone pass the listening and reading sections without ability. I don't think you cram around that - your reading & listening is either at a high level or it isn't.

There's a pretty surefire way of breaking the reading section 80% of the time, (わくわく reading comprehension)

The problem is you are going to have to be at least JLPT level 3-2 to do it, recognize the different Kanji and the amount of effort you have to put into learning the method and how it works for each different type of problem, drilling it into you is kinda ridiculous. You'd be 25-50% of the way to actually understanding the reading if you used the time to study real things instead.

vosmiura Wrote:It doesn't test speaking ability

Yep, that's one of the weak points. It does not cover speaking or writing.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:But you are talking about his output. Output isn't tested on the JLPT, it's completely irrelevant.

Yeah, but does that change anything?

Yes, it does. The companies that use JLPT as a minimum requirement likely have experience hiring other people. and know what the JLPT entails.

For all we know maybe they are happy to have someone who will just understand orders and won't talk back .

vosmiura Wrote:For all we know maybe they are happy to have someone who will just understand orders and won't talk back .

Well if you look at it this way.. they'd probably like a JLPT for Japanese natives too.

Still I'd prefer a test that encompasses active usage of Japanese in addition. If only to raise the bar a little.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

vosmiura Wrote:For all we know maybe they are happy to have someone who will just understand orders and won't talk back .

Well if you look at it this way.. they'd probably like a JLPT for Japanese natives too.

Still I'd prefer a test that encompasses active usage of Japanese in addition. If only to raise the bar a little.

Yeah, but it isn't going to happen, the amount of applicants is amazingly high, there's no way they could properly grade all those thousands of tests in any reasonable time frame... testing speaking would simply be impossible.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:Yep, that's one of the weak points. It does not cover speaking or writing.

---------

Still I'd prefer a test that encompasses active usage of Japanese in addition. If only to raise the bar a little.

EDIT: Tobberoth beat me to the post but anyway, along the same lines as what he posted...

Language tests that have speaking or writing components require trained administrators to give individual speaking tests and graders to score written tests. Giving them is time consuming and extremely expensive--a self-introduction or a 5 minute chat wouldn't be an accurate assessment of a JLPT1 student's skills. Scores are necessarily subjective.

There were 559,057 people that took the JLPT last year. Imagine the logistics of giving an oral language test to more than a half million people on one day scattered all over the world--a test that would require hiring and training an additional 50,000 to 100,000 staff also scattered all over the world. Scores would vary (probably quite a bit) depending on the test administrator. Grading a written test would be easier than grading a speaking test but once again, if you have thousands of different people grading answers and essay questions in a JLPT writing test, grading is always going to be at least somewhat subjective. The cost people pay for taking the test would likely double or triple.

That's why the JLPT doesn't have a writing or speaking component.

My experience is like Wrightak's, but admittedly a little out of date. I got jobs and attended grad school without JLPT. I had to interview for both in Japanese, but I was never 'fluent'. It depends what area you're in and what stage you're at.

WORK: My advice would be to take a longer term approach and focus on obtaining skills and experience in your chosen area - in addition to improving your Japanese. Get some work experience before you go. If you have something to offer (beyond language skills), it'll be easier to gain entry and you'll likely get in at a higher level. Or you can avoid Japan Inc. and make a lateral move into an interesting less traditional small company. It's critical to meet people in your area - many available positions are not publicized.

A few foreign student friends in Japan got hired as regular employees and spent a few years living in company dorms, etc. They came away with great Japanese and lots of connections (and their sanity - barely). But I know it irked them a bit to see foreigners with no language or in-country experience getting the massive paychecks, the higher positions and more holidays...

UNIVERSITY: Question why you want to do undergrad in Japan. If there's some particular research relating to Japan or some applied program you want - then fine. Someone here is taking engineering, another is in fashion design. But the level of the general BA is low imo (students worked hard to get in and are happy to coast for a few years). I think it's a better idea to get a good undergrad in your native language, then head over to Japan for specialization in an area. It's also probably easier to get into grad school. Take advantage of the foreign student/researcher categories. There's no reason you can't attend regular classes in Japanese under these categories.

EXCHANGES: Programs designed for 1-year university exchanges (usu taught in English) are different - easy, safe and a nice experience, but not ideal for immersion. Homestay is fantastic, but it can be difficult to achieve immersion at school if you're with a bunch of English speaking students. I progressed more at a decidedly less fancy university exam cram school afterward because all my classmates were Chinese and Korean.

JLPT - unless the exam tests oodles of useless Japanese, I don't really understand the resistance. It sounds like most of it is useful/necessary and it's completely reasonable that employers need some objective minimum qualification. Have you noticed that beginner learners tend to assess their ability higher than advanced students? If you're interested in business, consider taking the Business Japanese exam. I imagine that would qualify and would be useful stuff.

BOSTON FAIR - it sounds like things have changed. I went with a couple friends years ago (they used to pay the airfare!) and 2 of us were offered jobs. We were far from fluent. I got the sense that we demonstrated enough Japanese and a commitment to continue improving that they figured we could get by. Again, if you're being hired for certain skills, you don't need native-level proficiency. It's the whole package. I suspect part of the reason they target Japanese students studying abroad is retention. A foreigner applying for a full-time position needs to demonstrate some seriousness about fitting in and willingness to stick around. Also, at a foreign job fair they are likely looking for English ability and foreign experience - which foreigners happen to have. :-) So it's not exactly the same as recruiting for typical native positions.

ps I don't recommend a long stint at a conventional Japanese company if you are the individualistic type (as most of you are I think). It's odd how many people learn Japanese to "be different", then go live in a country where 'being different' isn't totally welcomed. Bit of a disconnect there.

bit long - hopefully my experience is useful for somebody. cheers

Sure, I know all of that. And even if they are inevitable, there are still major flaws. Better a flawed test than non at all I guess.

Regarding the subjective grading.. I doubt there is an objective grading at all, even with a standardized test like the JLPT. That is, I believe it is incredibly hard, if not impossible to "objectively" measure language ability... and the JLPT goes as far as to completely neglect that whole output thingamajig. If you asked me employers should not give a damn about tests they did not conduct themselves fit for their needs. But that's just my opinion, so...

Evil_Dragon Wrote:Well if you look at it this way.. they'd probably like a JLPT for Japanese natives too.

I realize you're joking, but it's important to note that there is a "JLPT for natives":

漢字検定
日本語検定
日本語文章検定

..and so on. People need to realize that you're nothing in Japan if you aren't certified. That goes for natives too, and not just for language. For people who think JLPT doesn't test enough, you should be making that statement AFTER you've passed 1kyuu. At that point you can take JTEST or JBIZ, which test higher abilities and production (JTEST has some limited writing, JBIZ has oral interviews if you score well in the written). After THAT you can take some native tests. No one says that passing JLPT 1kyuu is the end of the road.

Quote:If you asked me employers should not give a damn about tests they did not conduct themselves fit for their needs. But that's just my opinion, so...

A company that isn't specifically seeking out foreigners is never going to make that kind of test. Even if they would, some random HR person is not skilled enough to design something that accurately tests ability. The best they could do is conduct oral interviews, but then they can't screen resumes. If it wasn't for JLPT, foreigners would be getting a lot fewer jobs in Japan.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I realize you're joking, but

You just have to spoil the party, eh?

Well, all of what I wrote so far is based on tests from previous years I looked at and my experiences with people who passed the 1kyuu (not too many, I admit). Maybe I'll change my opinion when I get obliterated in December, you never know.

JTest looks pretty interesting upon first sight though..

Quote:The best they could do is conduct oral interviews

Yep, that's what I would consider appropriate. Life ain't easy.

He deleted my comment. Why?

Thora Wrote:attended grad school

~~~

UNIVERSITY: Question why you want to do undergrad in Japan.

How did you like grad school in Japan, and what was your study focus? Later down the road I plan to look into it, however every foreigner I know in a grad program is Chinese/Korean. I'd like to hear your opinion of it from a westerner's point of view (I'm assuming you're a westerner here).

I think I'm in the minority for wanting to go to undergrad in Japan. My reasons are mostly I was always jealous of foreigners at my university in the US, and I didn't like my school. I decided I would finish in a foreign country, and because I'm a 日系 it seemed Japan like the easy pick (I was also thinking about Germany, but I'd be too short there!).

I'm also interested in the sciences/engineering, which I hear is good in Japan. However, I've also heard the non-sciences/engineering/technical majors in Japan are generally very low quality.

Thora - great post.

Wish there were more like it, rather than speculative opinions.

(and no, that does not mean i'm opposed to people posting their opinions)

As for me the JLPT is a motivator. I know passing it is not an acknowledgement of proficiency/fluency but for me it's a challenge. I love challenges. Isn't that what Khatz harps on about? Doing something you like/enjoy.

It's different strokes for different folks. Find what motivates you and just go with it.

montecristo73 Wrote:

Thora Wrote:I don't recommend a long stint at a conventional Japanese company if you are the individualistic type (as most of you are I think). It's odd how many people learn Japanese to "be different", then go live in a country where 'being different' isn't totally welcomed. Bit of a disconnect there.

Interesting. I've been traveling almost every year to Japan since 1995, although I lived and worked there for a year (without JLPT and no, it was not a JET Program job) and this is what keeps me from staying there for good. I prefer to see Japan just as a fun spot. To each his own.

In what ways specifically? Maybe because I worked at a Western company, but I always felt free to do basically whatever I wanted. Also, are you Caucasian?

Quote:Don't sit the JLPT

Wouldn't it be to tiring to be standing all the exam?

ghinzdra Wrote:

nonpoint Wrote:

Matthew Wrote:Also, I really don't understand why AJATT gets so much play here, since the vast majority of people I have seen try to learn that way spend a lot of time getting nowhere, but that's a whole another topic....

AJATT is:
RTK -> Kana -> 10000 i+1 sentences
(constant japanese immersion throughout)

It is not rtk -> kana -> 10000 sentences -> dont do JLPT because it sucks yo(opinion).

Also "vast majority of people I have seen ... spend a lot of time getting nowhere" Ridiculous claim. You probably know why.

I think it would be fun to do jlpt some day as a "hey, japanese class students you just got owned by a guy who was watching anime/hentai while you doing 'japanese homework' hehe". However, it would be insanely boring to actually study for the purpose of passing jlpt, but that is my personal opinion.

People on the internet like telling other people what they should and should not do. I think this forum is kind of useless once you're doing sentences with monolingual definitions. Actually it might be detrimental to ones progress. I understand why khatz refuses to setup a forum now.

well I ve been pondering a lot about that myself lately...
a bit hard to pretend abide by AJATT rules and hang around a english forum....
but consider software , ideas , sources.... for me no RTK forum would have meant at least no subs2srs , no exact japanese subtitles sources , no 2 10 5 method , etc..

In that sense, we're RevTKers, rather than AJATTeers. We're more flexible about self-study using a variety of methods, rather than, ah, being extremely enthused about following one person's advice. ;p

コーヒー国人?

[q

Matthew Wrote:Also, I really don't understand why AJATT gets so much play here, since the vast majority of people I have seen try to learn that way spend a lot of time getting nowhere, but that's a whole another topic....

AJATT is:
RTK -> Kana -> 10000 i+1 sentences
(constant japanese immersion throughout)
....
In that sense, we're RevTKers, rather than AJATTeers. We're more flexible about self-study using a variety of methods, rather than, ah, being extremely enthused about following one person's advice. ;p
____

You guys are missing the essence of AJATT altogether. Khatz gives you the outline: RTK, complete immersion, 10, 000 natural sentences: after that it's up to you. You can use whatever freakin resources you want for sentences, as long as it's natural, and you try your hardest to only put Japanese on your cards (going monolingual eventually).
I've gone monolingual, have 2, 500 sentences and have listened to Japanese media for a good 18 hours a day for the last 2 months, and I can now say that there are few TV shows that I can't understand fairly well. I wasn't a beginner when I started AJATT, I was just a misguided class learner who'd finished RTK1.
If you use whatever natural resources you can for sentences (I've used KO, dict of intermediate grammar, Tae Kim and of course manga, newspapers, novels etc....) then AJATT covers every aspect you could need. Natural sentences are the best way to learn.
Don't use AJATT, but you'd be a complete fool not to. Combined with the right resources, it's the only way to learn a language in my opinion. I have years of crappy results in Japanese to speak for that.
"vast majority of people I have seen try to learn that way spend a lot of time getting nowhere"
Perhaps it's that they spend more time focusing on becoming fluent than trying to flaunt their results.

nonpoint Wrote:However, it would be insanely boring to actually study for the purpose of passing jlpt, but that is my personal opinion.

My opinion too.
And reading what people wrote about JLPT, I think who has enough Japanese proficiency to work in Japan, can pass the exam.

@thecite for a guy whos name is the thecite you are pretty bad at quoting

Anyway, I just came back from ACE:ING THE CRAP out of a placement test in japanese at my college. That test decides which of the 5 levels of japanese courses you can/should take. It is supposed to take 2-2½ years to get to the highest level, guess which level was recommended for me...
And I've only been doing ajatt for 8 months(~2100 i+1 sentences, monolingual). Just wanted to flaunt my recent results a little, and say: That test was THE most boring thing I have ever done in japanese. EVAR.
I'm going to watch one of the ダウンタウン 罰-games now, just to get that test out of my system.

thecite Wrote:[q

Matthew Wrote:Also, I really don't understand why AJATT gets so much play here, since the vast majority of people I have seen try to learn that way spend a lot of time getting nowhere, but that's a whole another topic....

AJATT is:
RTK -> Kana -> 10000 i+1 sentences
(constant japanese immersion throughout)
....
In that sense, we're RevTKers, rather than AJATTeers. We're more flexible about self-study using a variety of methods, rather than, ah, being extremely enthused about following one person's advice. ;p
____

You guys are missing the essence of AJATT altogether. Khatz gives you the outline: RTK, complete immersion, 10, 000 natural sentences: after that it's up to you. You can use whatever freakin resources you want for sentences, as long as it's natural, and you try your hardest to only put Japanese on your cards (going monolingual eventually).
I've gone monolingual, have 2, 500 sentences and have listened to Japanese media for a good 18 hours a day for the last 2 months, and I can now say that there are few TV shows that I can't understand fairly well. I wasn't a beginner when I started AJATT, I was just a misguided class learner who'd finished RTK1.
If you use whatever natural resources you can for sentences (I've used KO, dict of intermediate grammar, Tae Kim and of course manga, newspapers, novels etc....) then AJATT covers every aspect you could need. Natural sentences are the best way to learn.
Don't use AJATT, but you'd be a complete fool not to. Combined with the right resources, it's the only way to learn a language in my opinion. I have years of crappy results in Japanese to speak for that.
"vast majority of people I have seen try to learn that way spend a lot of time getting nowhere"
Perhaps it's that they spend more time focusing on becoming fluent than trying to flaunt their results.

I love that the last line was probably typed completely un-self-consciously. ^_- Well, so now we know you had previous Japanese experience. That takes the edge off, I understand more where you're coming from now. It's actually cool to know there's so many people who made the transition from classes to self-study. I was fortunate enough to just dive in from scratch, but I also had some bad experiences with 'school Spanish' (as someone else mentioned in the polyglot thread) and Latin and German that turned me off Romance languages entirely.

I used to think of it this way: AJATT is just a name, just take what's useful like JKD (Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do). For me, it was only the Antimoon sentence deconstruction idea, sticking those into an SRS (which I'd just heard of from this site), that was new. It blew me away, because it took the 'learn French in 10 months' kuro5hin article I'd read a cpl years before and made me realize the missing piece of that (I kept trying and failing to use non-SRS flashcards and learning vocabulary/grammar as I read French novels, feeling like I was making Sisyphean progress). There was also some 'So you'd like to... ' list on Amazon that inspired me to do my self-study like an assembly-line.

Likewise I appreciated the concept of immersion as well because I'd already been doing it in my own way for cultural purposes related to my desire to overcome localized perceptions (being influenced by my geography and language barriers into limited thinking), I knew what he was getting at with it with regards to language, the importance of setting/mentality and lots of exposure for learning Japanese.

I'd found Heisig and RevTK through Google, and AJATT through this forum. Anyway, after customizing my methods from the onset (alongside his customizations and resources here, so my first experience was doing audio/kana-->kanji cards with the still-new KO2001) and after spending a lot of time on this forum brainstorming and sharing tools and arguing with the side effects of Khatzumoto's rhetoric: I can say that the essence of AJATT, the obsession with his inspirational style and nonstop immersion and fixation on i+1, I don't think it's as good as my way (which doesn't really exist), and I also think that the variety and open-mindedness and experimentation on this forum transcends AJATT--AJATT's just another site with some interesting tips, some of many. So, I'm nest0r, but I can be called a RevTKer if it helps.

I have no idea what the point of this comment was, sorry. Lost it somewhere along the way. ;p

nest0r Wrote:So, I'm nest0r, but I can be called a RevTKer if it helps.

Heh. Cute line. I like it

This forum is the largest English component of my spare time. I wouldn't give it up for more immersion time because it is, as you mention, such a useful font of innovation and ideas.

nonpoint Wrote:Anyway, I just came back from ACE:ING THE CRAP out of a placement test in japanese at my college. That test decides which of the 5 levels of japanese courses you can/should take. It is supposed to take 2-2½ years to get to the highest level, guess which level was recommended for me... .

Congratulations! I'm constantly toying with whether or not I should take my University's placement tests. Right now I'm in the absolute beginners course. On the one hand, its super easy and I should end the year on 95%+. On the other hand, its so god damned boring it makes me want to shoot myself. But on the other, other hand while my reading/listening is miles ahead of my current class, I know that my speaking and writing is lagging far behind (compared to my reading/listening). There is a pretty large mismatch, so I'd be able to cope with reading/listening assessments in a higher class, but probably not speaking/writing.

This is all AJATT's fault...

Sebastian Wrote:

Quote:Don't sit the JLPT

Wouldn't it be to tiring to be standing all the exam?

hahahahhaha