Matthew Wrote:Also, I really don't understand why AJATT gets so much play here, since the vast majority of people I have seen try to learn that way spend a lot of time getting nowhere, but that's a whole another topic....

The vast majority of people using any technique spend time going nowhere. It's up to the individual to move forward. Failure of the individual is not failure of the technique.

Matthew Wrote:The problem with anime/manga is that there is a fairly small, repetitive amount vocabulary and grammar used

Actually, I'm learning more specialist terms from mangas than from anything else (Golf, Boxing, Go, Baseball, Law, Religion,... Alchemy...). There's a manga for frikkin everything.
Of course, All Doraemon All The Time would tend to be quite repetitive.

Nukemarine Wrote:It's not those that are taking the test to show some sort of certification for their Japanese ability.

It's those that post on forums (not necessarily this one) things like:

1. Gosh, I hope I pass this time
2. Man, I've taken this thing every year, maybe I'll try 2kyuu this time.
3. If I'm lucky.
4. I've got to know all these 8000 words or I have no chance to pass
5. I need motivation to learn Japanese, so I signed up for...

For guys that say stuff like the above, I'd like to say "If you need this for a job, maybe that's a clue that you should also know Japanese for the job." It should not be a question about passing the JLPT, but by what degree you pass. You should easily be able to pass the JLPT if you think it's that important. If you need luck to pass, you shouldn't bother taking it. If you need motivation, the test ain't it.

Granted, I'm thinking of taking the damn thing next year just for a laugh. I won't "study" for it except for putting grammar sentences into Anki. However, I'll also take the Defense Language Proficiency Test as that can equate to an extra four hundred dollars a month. Only a moron would ride his high horse away from that deal, feelings about standardized tests be damned.

Youve been at this forever, you shouldve passed 1 kyu 6 months ago. slacker.

Heh, if there was $400/month extra waiting I'd be studying specifically for the damned thing. Fluency be damned .

montecristo73 Wrote:Didn't Khatz land a job in Japan without the JLPT? Just wondering.

Not only did he land a job in Japan, but he:

a)went to the Boston Career Forum(largest Japanese-English bilingual job fair in the world)

b)got a full-time IT engineer position with Sony (which probably doesn't like to hire gaijin)

c)the position was meant for native Japanese speakers only

d)Sony congratulated him on the fact that his keigo far surpassed that of any of the native Japanese speakers that applied for the position

e)he knew ZERO Japanese 18 months before the Boston Career Forum

So yeah, if you're going by results, I think Khatz has a very strong case for AJATT.

chamcham Wrote:

montecristo73 Wrote:Didn't Khatz land a job in Japan without the JLPT? Just wondering.

he:

a)went to the Boston Career Forum(largest Japanese-English bilingual job fair in the world)

b)got a full-time IT engineer position with Sony (which probably doesn't like to hire gaijin)

c)the position was meant for native Japanese speakers only

d)Sony congratulated him on the fact that his keigo far surpassed that of any of the native Japanese speakers that applied for the position

e)he knew ZERO Japanese 18 months before the Boston Career Forum

you re his girlfriend or the boss of Sony?

Sony, a company that "doesn't like to hire gaijin" was hiring for a Japanese-only position in Japan at a job-fair in Boston? Unlikely.

Every IT job-ad I've seen has either no JP requirement or only level 3/4. How did this turn into a conversation about Khatz anyways? Even if he did pull off what you say, it was a stroke of luck. Most companies in Japan do not even consider a gaijin resume unless it has JLPT2 minimum on it.

maybe his girlfriend IS the boss of Sony.... :lol:

Quote:(which probably doesn't like to hire gaijin)

Where do you get that? Sony hires lots of gaijin. I know a lot of people who work at Sony, who know little to no Japanese.

I've actually gone to the Boston Career Forum.

And yes, most companies are really looking to hire foreign-born Japanese people.
When I went there, there were only 3 companies (out of 200 of the biggest Japanese companies) looking for people with BUSINESS level (JLPT 2) Japanese.

EVERY other company was looking for native-level speakers only.

Even companies like Microsoft and Google only wanted native speakers.

The beauty of the Boston Career Forum is that most companies are looking
to make offers within those 3 days of the career fair.

Maybe emailing resumes to Japanese will rarely get any response.
But if you show up there with the proper skill set and Japanese-level, you can literally walk out of there with a job in Japan waiting for you.

One of my friends was offered a job in Japan and took the position.

vosmiura Wrote:

Quote:(which probably doesn't like to hire gaijin)

Where do you get that? Sony hires lots of gaijin. I know a lot of people who work at Sony, who know little to no Japanese.

I think he was talking about the position. Even still it a bit of an over generalization. Or not. I don't live in Japan.

nonpoint Wrote:

Matthew Wrote:Also, I really don't understand why AJATT gets so much play here, since the vast majority of people I have seen try to learn that way spend a lot of time getting nowhere, but that's a whole another topic....

AJATT is:
RTK -> Kana -> 10000 i+1 sentences
(constant japanese immersion throughout)

It is not rtk -> kana -> 10000 sentences -> dont do JLPT because it sucks yo(opinion).

Also "vast majority of people I have seen ... spend a lot of time getting nowhere" Ridiculous claim. You probably know why.

I think it would be fun to do jlpt some day as a "hey, japanese class students you just got owned by a guy who was watching anime/hentai while you doing 'japanese homework' hehe". However, it would be insanely boring to actually study for the purpose of passing jlpt, but that is my personal opinion.

People on the internet like telling other people what they should and should not do. I think this forum is kind of useless once you're doing sentences with monolingual definitions. Actually it might be detrimental to ones progress. I understand why khatz refuses to setup a forum now.

well I ve been pondering a lot about that myself lately...
a bit hard to pretend abide by AJATT rules and hang around a english forum....
but consider software , ideas , sources.... for me no RTK forum would have meant at least no subs2srs , no exact japanese subtitles sources , no 2 10 5 method , etc..

Jarvik7 Wrote:Sony, a company that "doesn't like to hire gaijin" was hiring for a Japanese-only position in Japan at a job-fair in Boston? Unlikely.

Every IT job-ad I've seen has either no JP requirement or only level 3/4. How did this turn into a conversation about Khatz anyways? Even if he did pull off what you say, it was a stroke of luck. Most companies in Japan do not even consider a gaijin resume unless it has JLPT2 minimum on it.

Complete contradiction within the same paragraph. Nice lol.

Oh and BTW the MAIN requirements of the Japan-Boston career forum is that an applicant be bi-lingual in Japanese and English. I browsed some of the pics from last years forum and I think I only saw one non-Japanese person, and I wasn't even positive about that. So yeah if Khatz got a job there it is most definitely an impressive feat from what I can tell.

Not a complete contradiction, you just apparently didn't follow the full thread. Open-to-foreigner IT jobs and English teaching jobs = no or little JP skill required. Everything else = JLPT required. In other words, a job where you need to speak Japanese needs JLPT. Even for the above two job types, JLPT on your resume will put you ahead of someone who doesn't have it, even if it's not a job requirement.

Now, in the case of jobs that aren't meant to be open to foreigners, Khatz was walking around talking to recruiters at a job fair and so he didn't need to pass initial resume screening before getting called for an interview. If he was applying by resume it probably would have been discarded immediately if it wasn't JLPT1 certified. It might even have been discarded anyways since not open to foreigner jobs are usually not open to foreigners, period.

In short, his situation doesn't apply unless you plan on getting the same kind of job at the same kind of job fair, and luck out like he did. If you don't have JLPT on your resume you are severely weakening your position when you apply for work. JLPT might not be a realistic test of Japanese ability, but that's because it's too EASY. If you are good enough to work in a Japanese office just like a native, you should be able to pass the 1kyuu test with very little study.

I don't get where all the JLPT hate comes from. The only thing I hate about it is that it's only offered once a year (2x in Japan).

I'm sorry activeaero, but "most companies" does not mean "every IT job".

Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't get where all the JLPT hate comes from. The only thing I hate about it is that it's only offered once a year (2x in Japan).

I don't like it because it does not measure Japanese ability. There's too many people out there with JLPT1 who talk like shit.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't get where all the JLPT hate comes from. The only thing I hate about it is that it's only offered once a year (2x in Japan).

I don't like it because it does not measure Japanese ability. There's too many people out there with JLPT1 who talk like shit.

Except, it DOES test Japanese ability. People who have passed JLPT1 are in 99% of all cases MUCH better than those who can't pass it. If you're good at Japanese and can't pass it, there's something wrong with your ability.

If you're good enough at Japanese to pass JLPT1 and suck at speaking Japanese, it's just because you lack output training, which takes almost no time at all to improve, the passive knowledge is obviously there and just needs to be brought forward.

Tobberoth Wrote:Except, it DOES test Japanese ability. People who have passed JLPT1 are in 99% of all cases MUCH better than those who can't pass it.

Yeah, but that's not my point. My point is people with JLPT1 aren't necessarily good at Japanese.
Of course, if you are good at Japanese JLPT will probably be a piece of cake. (though people try to convince me that even Japanese people would fail on a near daily basis)

Also, I know a few people who passed JLPT1 and yet I consider my Japanese ability to be superior even though I probably could not pass (we'll see in December). Well, maybe that's just my imagination at work..

All that matters is: If you suck at Japanese, you can't pass JLPT1. You can't even pass JLPT2. If you you're good at Japanese, you can pass JLPT1. From that alone, it's a fact that it tests Japanese ability.

You say you're better than someone who passed JLPT1 while you can't, but can you explain how that's possible? He knows vocabulary you do not? He can pick which grammar fits better in a sentence than you? He knows the readings of more kanji that you? So how are you better than him?

No matter how you go about it, the fact remains: Someone who can pass JLPT1 is obviously better than someone who can't at the things tested on the test: Recognition. You can't pass JLPT1 on luck, and you can't pass it on guessing. You have to have a huge vocabulary, a great ear for Japanese, and a good understanding of the nuances between different grammatical structures.

EDIT: I should also point out that most natives would never have any problem with JLPT. I sent magamo a link to JLPT1 from 2007 so he could check it out, and he was very confident he would ace it. He didn't consider any part of the test challenging.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Not a complete contradiction, you just apparently didn't follow the full thread. Open-to-foreigner IT jobs and English teaching jobs = no or little JP skill required. Everything else = JLPT required.

Not true for me. My job isn't an open-to-foreigner IT job, and it isn't an English teaching job either. I didn't need the JLPT. As I commented on the actual post:

Quote:“Would you, native user of English reading this, take the TOEFL/TOEIC, to put on your resume in order to prove your English proficiency?”

This doesn’t really make sense. I wouldn’t take TOEFL/TOEIC because I’m native. You’re not a native of Japanese. Neither am I.

The JLPT is a poor test, and I hate it too, but employers value it.

I managed to get my current job (I’m the only non-Japanese in the company and I work almost entirely in Japanese), without a JLPT score. I took JLPT 1 anyway without studying and managed to pass. My colleagues definitely took note and it wasn’t valueless.

Interestingly, everyone in my company apart from me must take TOEIC. Everyone wants me to take it to see if I can ace it. Personally I don’t want to waste my weekend but I’d take it if they let me do it on a weekday.

I got my job through a contact who worked at a recruitment company. He forwarded my resume and then I got an interview. No JLPT involved. Although it probably would have gone down well.

Maybe this has been mentioned earlier in this thread, I haven't read it all, but has Khatzumoto taken the JLPT? From his tone, it sounds like he might have failed it.

Tobberoth Wrote:You say you're better than someone who passed JLPT1 while you can't, but can you explain how that's possible?

For example there's this Chinese guy. He's probably a Kanji beast (I don't know for sure because he's all "Oh no, I'm so bad at Kanji! You're much better!"). But when speaking Japanese he frequently makes mistakes.. even with grammar I'd consider basic. The cool kids would probably say that my "output" (which as we know is not tested) is better. But as I said: Maybe it's just my imagination. Or maybe he was lucky. I don't know, but to me it represents the fact that standardised are not a good method to evaluate someones ability.

Or maybe I'm even able to pass level 1, I never tried.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:You say you're better than someone who passed JLPT1 while you can't, but can you explain how that's possible?

For example there's this Chinese guy. He's probably a Kanji beast (I don't know for sure because he's all "Oh no, I'm so bad at Kanji! You're much better!"). But when speaking Japanese he frequently makes mistakes.. even with grammar I'd consider basic. The cool kids would probably say that my "output" (which as we know is not tested) is better. But as I said: Maybe it's just my imagination. Or maybe he was lucky. I don't know, but to me it represents the fact that standardised are not a good method to evaluate someones ability.

Or maybe I'm even able to pass level 1, I never tried.

But you are talking about his output. Output isn't tested on the JLPT, it's completely irrelevant.

Funny, this is exactly like how Japanese natives argue if 英検1級 reflects the "real" English ability. These tests mainly measure "passive" abilities so people who passed 英検1級 (or JLPT1) may not be able to actively use English (Japanese) all that good, but I think they are measuring what they intend to measure, that is, reading and listening comprehension, 読解力と聞き取り力.

as far as I can tell from this,

http://www.jlpt.jp/j/about/pdf/2005R1.pdf

The questions are pretty authentic and very easy for natives. I hate exams and think it's not "stylish" to study for them, but the exam doesn't look THAT bad.

Tobberoth Wrote:But you are talking about his output. Output isn't tested on the JLPT, it's completely irrelevant.

Yeah, but does that change anything?

As far as resumes, and certificates, Level 3 and 4 are generally considered "useless", right?

How useful is level 2? What kind of jobs open up that requires 2 that's not available available to level 3? I'm of course speaking about the norm. There's always going to be exceptions, or special situations.

I wasn't going to bother with anything less than 1 because JLPT isn't required for any of my current my goals, however I'm thinking I might get level 2 in case it's required for a part time job.