Mcjon01 Wrote:Man, what's with all the business hate? Every time business vocabulary ends up in a learning resource it gets listed as a negative point, or at best something to just grit your teeth and try to bear. I feel like I must be the only person in the world who's actually going to Japan to study business...

I'm planning to work in Japan soon, so I find it very useful as well. That doesn't mean I want every sentence in my deck to be a boring business sentence though, KO2001 is definitely too heavy on it.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Mcjon01 Wrote:Man, what's with all the business hate? Every time business vocabulary ends up in a learning resource it gets listed as a negative point, or at best something to just grit your teeth and try to bear. I feel like I must be the only person in the world who's actually going to Japan to study business...

I'm planning to work in Japan soon, so I find it very useful as well. That doesn't mean I want every sentence in my deck to be a boring business sentence though, KO2001 is definitely too heavy on it.

Granted, but I'd say that if every sentence in a deck was from KO2001, that's a problem with the deck, not the resource.

Mcjon01 Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

Mcjon01 Wrote:Man, what's with all the business hate? Every time business vocabulary ends up in a learning resource it gets listed as a negative point, or at best something to just grit your teeth and try to bear. I feel like I must be the only person in the world who's actually going to Japan to study business...

I'm planning to work in Japan soon, so I find it very useful as well. That doesn't mean I want every sentence in my deck to be a boring business sentence though, KO2001 is definitely too heavy on it.

Granted, but I'd say that if every sentence in a deck was from KO2001, that's a problem with the deck, not the resource.

Agreed, but most people who decide to use KO2001 (and any other specific resource for that matter) seem to feel they have to "power-focus" and saps all their effort into that resource a lone. The people using KO2001 usually do so because they believe that once they are done with it, they magically get very good at reading Japanese (not that KO2001 doesn't make you good, I just doubt it's all that superior to any other source).

oregum Wrote:I don't know why people like KO. I've looked through it, and wasn't impressed. Go with Kanji in Context. Why?

1. KiC has sentences for all Kanji, KO for the first 1110
2. KiC is not boring
3. KO doesn't have a search feature, KiC is a book (but I downloaded a vocab list)
4. Even though KO is digital, you cannot copy the sentences.

The audio for KO is kind of slow, but KiC doesn't have any.

1. True, but KO has more example sentences per kanji than KiC. Also coverage of all the kanji is not necessarily important. Even KiC itself says you don't need it after a certain point.

2. True KiC is less boring, but it is also a lot harder to use for a beginner.

3 & 4. There are digital copies of all of KO sentences floating around. KO is relatively easy to find things in because in the book every kanji is numbered wherever it's used, while KiC only has a key for the current key kanji, and everything else needs looking up the hard way.

Bottom line, KO is just a lot easier to approach for a beginner than KiC. I tried KiC first and found it too difficult, and there were too many kanji I had to look up in dictionaries because they are not keyed.

If you do KO, once you get used to the grammar in KO and the beginner vocab then you can move onto KiC. Or, if you don't find KO too boring then blitz it and move onto reading books.

Myself, I just did the 1st volume of KO and then moved to 'Reibun de Manabu Kanji to Kotoba' which is also from the author of KiC with similar sentences, but I find more thorough. RdM uses more advanced grammar and is more intensive than KO. I've almost finished that, and I might use KiC after but then again it might not be that necessary.

Kanojo Odyssey is always worth it.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Kanojo Odyssey is always worth it.

I didn't even notice that until this comment, hehe.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Kanojo Odyssey is always worth it.

Wow, that is WIN =D

Addition to our corpora/Anki as database tangent: I mentioned this once before (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...1#pid43611), but I often use my Japanese the Manga Way/Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar deck as a searchable grammar dictionary--ie if I forget the nuance of a certain point, I just browse for the relevant cards in Anki, because when I started out I usually put the explanations beneath the sentences. In retrospect, I wish I'd added more sentences/explanations from those books.

I know some people have created some lists on smart.fm based on the Kanji Odyssey word orderings. I'm guessing these are the ones created by Nukemarine? Unfortunately there seem to be a number of different people creating lists so it's kind of confusing.

Also does smart.fm show the items in the exact same order (or can it just randomly swap them around ie change kanji 1 with say 20 if they are in the same set?). In addition what happens if you have already studied that item in another list?

Thanks for any information.

It's certainly worth it. However, the sentences only use extremely basic grammar. Therefore, I was battling with myself to put my full attention onto it and get it done instead of doing natural sentences. My advice, combine it with natural sentence grabbing. The different contexts will benefit you enormously.

MeNoSavvy Wrote:I know some people have created some lists on smart.fm based on the Kanji Odyssey word orderings. I'm guessing these are the ones created by Nukemarine? Unfortunately there seem to be a number of different people creating lists so it's kind of confusing.

Nukemarine is coordinating the effort, the actual list making has been done by many people here.

Who has access to the community KO spreadsheet? Or rather, who can I pm to obtain access to the spreadsheet?

rich_f and vosmira

If you just do a quick search you can find a link to the anki deck with full audio and there's no password on it. Saves you the effort of adding anything in anki

I'd like to know from people who mine natural resources, how much time do you usually spend setting up each sentence?

It seems to me that choosing, entering the sentences accurately, looking up words in dictionaries, etc. has to take up several minutes, easily. Would 5 minutes each be way off mark?

I'm just thinking because with KO, all you have to do is review. To get a card to maturity in Anki you need to review about 6 times in a row. If you account for making mistakes, I guess ~8 times is more like it. I average about 15 seconds per sentence review (when not distracted by TV at the same time). To do the 3000 sentences in KO then, would take about 3000 * 8 * 15 seconds = 100 hours.

Now, if mining sentences and it hypothetically took 5 minutes just to set up the cards then it would take 3000 * 5 minutes = 250 hours just for set up + 100 hours for review, for a total of 350 hours.

These numbers don't include other learning routines that also take time of course, but they just include the fixed parts of the process.

Those are just my estimates, so I'd like to hear from people who mine real sentences. How long does it take to mine real sentences?

vosmiura Wrote:I'd like to know from people who mine natural resources, how much time do you usually spend setting up each sentence?

It seems to me that choosing, entering the sentences accurately, looking up words in dictionaries, etc. has to take up several minutes, easily. Would 5 minutes each be way off mark?

I'm just thinking because with KO, all you have to do is review. To get a card to maturity in Anki you need to review about 6 times in a row. If you account for making mistakes, I guess ~8 times is more like it. I average about 15 seconds per sentence review (when not distracted by TV at the same time). To do the 3000 sentences in KO then, would take about 3000 * 8 * 15 seconds = 100 hours.

Now, if mining sentences and it hypothetically took 5 minutes just to set up the cards then it would take 3000 * 5 minutes = 250 hours just for set up + 100 hours for review, for a total of 350 hours.

These numbers don't include other learning routines that also take time of course, but they just include the fixed parts of the process.

Those are just my estimates, so I'd like to hear from people who mine real sentences. How long does it take to mine real sentences?

You're not including the time it takes to FIND the real sentences. It took me all day to get 30. Circa 5 or so hours... that time included entering and reviewing everything. It was fairly slow going. However, that was straight after finishing RTK so I+1's are a lot harder to come by because everything is usually more than +1.

Also, if you're using the KO Anki deck with Audio it has 6200 cards for the 3100 facts. One is reading comprehension, the other listening comprehension of the same sentence. It's a front to back and back to front kind of deck. This is one of THE best things about it. So your calculations would be approximately doubled at 200 Hours.
Personally I don't believe it will take 200 hours from experience. It's probably closer to 150 - 160 for the whole deck. Taking into account that the first 1000 - 2000 cards can be done much quicker due to having far less reviews at the beginning compared to the end when there will be 600+ a day + new cards*

*based on 200 new cards a day.

At any rate, 3000 sentences with my old method would have taken approx. 600 - 800 hours. Close to 6 months. Although in reality the more you know the easier it is to find more sentences because things start to become i+1 more frequently. So I could estimate it maybe 4.5 months? KO Will take me only 1 Month. 1.5 If im taking long.

Quote:Personally I don't believe it will take 200 hours from experience. It's probably closer to 150 - 160 for the whole deck. Taking into account that the first 1000 - 2000 cards can be done much quicker due to having far less reviews at the beginning compared to the end when there will be 600+ a day + new cards*

Audio reviews can be faster I find, although the KO sentences are a tad slow.

The time depends on how many reviews you count; reviews keep on coming right, but if counting up to the first review as a mature card I would usually count 6 reviews (day 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32) without counting failures. If you go really quick like Blackmacros, over three weeks you won't get to the stage of reviewing month old cards, until later of course.

vosmiura Wrote:

Quote:Personally I don't believe it will take 200 hours from experience. It's probably closer to 150 - 160 for the whole deck. Taking into account that the first 1000 - 2000 cards can be done much quicker due to having far less reviews at the beginning compared to the end when there will be 600+ a day + new cards*

Audio reviews can be faster I find, although the KO sentences are a tad slow.

The time depends on how many reviews you count; reviews keep on coming right, but if counting up to the first review as a mature card I would usually count 6 reviews (day 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32) without counting failures. If you go really quick like Blackmacros, over three weeks you won't get to the stage of reviewing month old cards, until later of course.

Yeah. The thing I'm worried about is having endless reviews of KO after i've finished it. That's what RTK feels like. Still 50 reviews a day for the next month when it will have declined to about 15 - 20. Takes forever to get it down.

I think the biggest benefit of doing KO will be that natural sources yield far more i+1 sentences over a much shorter span of time. So it may be possible to do 100 natural sentences a day after I'm finished KO2001. That's what I'm hoping anyways. Can anyone verify that from their experience?

You'll certainly have a lot more input that is i+1. You'll start having to skip more and more sentences that are i+0 .

I was maybe too pessimistic in the review time, since I think the interval increase factor is on average over 2X. My current average factor is 2.4, so I guess things could go more like 2,4,10,24,58 days.

Actually from a graph I have, the average repetitions to getting a card reviewed as mature used to be about 6.5 before I started using Iversen's, and about 4.5 after.

So anyway, this just makes the 'mining' time look even worse compared to reviewing pre-made material. KO, Smart.fm, subs2srs are very good from this point of view.