ok. its 3 months 16 days and a few hours since i started learning japanese properly. It's 2.7 months since i started SRSing.
i can pick up easy manga and read chunks without a dictionary. i can watch easy shows and get whats going on and what they're talking about. I can repeat audio ok.
but i don't feel like my ability to speak has improved at all in the time i have been SRSing. It takes me aaages to remember how to say/think things.
Am i some kind of speech retard or is this normal? I'm quite quiet in english too in general.
I was planning on going to Japan at the end of September, but it looks like that's gone a bit wrong. for the nice winter snowboarding. but for more 24hr learning time.

So, if i say, in 4-6 months to go to Japan, what are the very best things i can do to get better at speaking (along with understanding more), in that time?

How long did it take anyone else to start speaking and thinking in japanese? What are the best and most helpful things you've done that have improved this?

Thanks

IceCream Wrote:Am i some kind of speech retard

Yes.

You say you don't speak as much in English. What makes you think you will speak anymore in Japanese?

Quote:i can watch easy shows and get whats going on and what they're talking about.

So can my brother. He doesn't even know the difference between Chinese and Japanese.

Quote:It takes me aaages to remember how to say/think things.

You being retarded, this make sense no?

Quote:So, if i say, in 4-6 months to go to Japan, what are the very best things i can do to get better at speaking (along with understanding more), in that time?

Stay there for more than 3 months.

Quote:How long did it take anyone else to start speaking and thinking in japanese?

Let's ask anyone else. Hey anyone one else, how long it did it take you to start speaking and thinking in Japanese? Anyone Else?

Quote:What are the best and most helpful things you've done that have improved this?

Do it.

These are just my ramblings, though.

ropsta Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:Am i some kind of speech retard

Yes.

You say you don't speak as much in English. What makes you think you will speak anymore in Japanese?

Quote:i can watch easy shows and get whats going on and what they're talking about.

So can my brother. He doesn't even know the difference between Chinese and Japanese.

Quote:It takes me aaages to remember how to say/think things.

You being retarded, this make sense no?

Quote:So, if i say, in 4-6 months to go to Japan, what are the very best things i can do to get better at speaking (along with understanding more), in that time?

Stay there for more than 3 months.

Quote:How long did it take anyone else to start speaking and thinking in japanese?

Let's ask anyone else. Hey anyone one else, how long it did it take you to start speaking and thinking in Japanese? Anyone Else?

Quote:What are the best and most helpful things you've done that have improved this?

Do it.

These are just my ramblings, though.

???? What are you on about?

You can try talking to yourself =D Or maybe try and role play some of your sentences as if you were in a conversation. Just make sure not to ingrain bad habits =(

You've only been studying for 3 months, be happy you're having an such an easy time reading. What made you think you'd be able to think and speak in Japanese in such a short time?
Hell, I've been studying on and off for around 2 years, and I still can't casually read through a manga, and I have close to 3000 sentences SRS'd (of course, this probably has more to do with my terrible study habits and my stubbornness in not adopting the sentence method/other AJATT/antimoon methods.)
You seem to have adopted good study methods from the start, which is the most important thing, as I can attest to personally, old habits die hard.

The only way to get good at outputting is to output. Khazu claims output comes automatically, but I seriously doubt that... if it does, it probably takes a VERY long time, WAY longer than 3 months.

What you need to do is start outputting. Just a little, and just in a controlled setting. You can start by writing on lang-8, Japanese people will correct your output. Then you can move on to mixi.jp or something, maybe get some Japanese people to mail with, ask them to correct you. After that, find Japanese to talk to on Skype. I've chatted a bit with magamo on IRC in Japanese, I don't think he would mind talking some with you.

At first, it will be really slow and hard. Your Japanese will be baby-talk and you will probably be embarrassed. But don't worry about it, the more you actively use your Japanese creatively, the better you get at creating sentences on the go. Don't force yourself to speak in convoluted sentences, don't force yourself to use grammar or words you just learned. Focus on getting the meaning across in the most correct (and simple) way possible. As you get more comfortable doing that, more advanced stuff will jump into your mind.

Today is my 50th day of studying Japanese. I can't follow TV shows or read, so the fact that you can do them is encouraging to me.

I can write somewhere between 1600 to 1700 characters from Hesig keyword (officially at frame #1719 of RTK 1, but I have a lot of failed cards at the moment), write all the hiragana and most of the katakana, recognize Japanese as different from other languages, pick out the occasional word in speech or text, and tell where a speaker is in a written text. These are all things I couldn't do when I started, so I take encouragement in that, too.

Since I'm not as advanced as you, I can't speak from experience. However, the theory I've read says that your situation is not unusual. Output ability (expressing original thoughts) always lags behind input ability--possibly by several months, so its entirely normal to have very little to no output ability at only three months of study. Six months of silence is not unusual in elementary-school English programs, so the fact that you can speak some Japanese now is actually very good.

As far as getting better, theory says (specifically the Comprehensible Input Model) to get as much input as possible. You don't have to go to Japan for immersion. Personally, I've found http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/ to be helpful.

Good luck.

I'm with Tobberoth. The only way you get better at speaking is by speaking. I would try repeating after some simple sentences or just some words like "すみません！" while watching a show. If you are confident that you can say something correctly, and have seen the appropriate use of it in a video, it will likely to just pop out when you are in real-life conversations. Not just repeating but "acting out" seems to work good and I'd pay special attentions to the pitch (accent) and the rhythm (mora) as they are the things many English speakers struggle with the most.

Khatzumoto seems to be a natural in that sense, possibly doesn't really even notice he's been speaking, but there is no way he just kept quiet like a clam, listened to tons of audio and BAM! all of the sudden started to speak like that. For some people like myself, being quiet means REALLY quiet and my mouth can be shut tight, motionless, completely still for hours while watching the TV. That wouldn't make me a good talker even if I was submerged in a lot of inputs.

When Khatz and the anti-moon guys say that the speaking will just "come to you" I'm pretty sure they don't mean that one day, after doing nothing but input, 100% native Japanese will just start flowing from your mouth without hesitation.

What they seem to suggest, and what makes 100% sense to me, is that you will know when you are able to speak about something because it will just come to you as a natural response. This is because, through massive amounts of input, you would have heard the response you want to give a 1000 times before in a similar context. What they are basically saying is that you shouldn't say something unless you know it is 100% correct and the way you know something is 100% correct is from hearing it endless numbers of times.

masaman Wrote:but there is no way he just kept quiet like a clam, listened to tons of audio and BAM! all of the sudden started to speak like that.

That's not what I heard *snap snap*

Quote:For some people like myself, being quiet means REALLY quiet and my mouth can be shut tight, motionless, completely still for hours while watching the TV. That wouldn't make me a good talker even if I was submerged in a lot of inputs.

Talking doesn't make you good at talking either.

activeaero Wrote:When Khatz and the anti-moon guys say that the speaking will just "come to you" I'm pretty sure they don't mean that one day, after doing nothing but input, 100% native Japanese will just start flowing from your mouth without hesitation.

Of course, but it's easier to make an argument when you view something at its extremes, no?

ropsta Wrote:

masaman Wrote:but there is no way he just kept quiet like a clam, listened to tons of audio and BAM! all of the sudden started to speak like that.

That's not what I heard *snap snap*

That's cool, I just said there is no way.

ropsta Wrote:

masaman Wrote:For some people like myself, being quiet means REALLY quiet and my mouth can be shut tight, motionless, completely still for hours while watching the TV. That wouldn't make me a good talker even if I was submerged in a lot of inputs.

Talking doesn't make you good at talking either.

Talking alone may not be sufficient, but you still need to talk though.

Wow, this is a tough question to answer. How, why, and when? These questions are a bit personal, aren't they? They vary for everyone.

I've been studying for 2 years, through University, and it took a looot of output (forced, using certain vocab and grammar) for me to feel comfortable actually speaking Japanese in an uncontrolled setting.

We have a conversation table that you can participate in after studying 4 semesters. Going to that has been the greatest boon to my speaking abilities. No, I'm not a master at Japanese. Yes, I use strange words and explain things that should be easy to convey, but I can have real-time conversations with native speakers.

When will this happen for you? Once you get enough output. Enough practice. Enough coming up with Japanese on your own that it's 2nd nature.
Input alone [probably] won't get you there.

activeaero Wrote:When Khatz and the anti-moon guys say that the speaking will just "come to you" I'm pretty sure they don't mean that one day, after doing nothing but input, 100% native Japanese will just start flowing from your mouth without hesitation.

What they seem to suggest, and what makes 100% sense to me, is that you will know when you are able to speak about something because it will just come to you as a natural response. This is because, through massive amounts of input, you would have heard the response you want to give a 1000 times before in a similar context. What they are basically saying is that you shouldn't say something unless you know it is 100% correct and the way you know something is 100% correct is from hearing it endless numbers of times.

I see your point. But 100% and 1000 times sounds a bit too extreme. You do need a lot of input for sure, but you don't need to hear すみません a 1000 times to use it somewhat naturally. And there are more physical aspects of speaking like pronunciation, rhythm and accent that only come with muscle training like how you learn sports. I see the importance of HUGE amount of input too, but to a person who says they are quiet, I think "A lot of input then it'll come" may not be the best advice.

It's only been 3 months. It's good you're so pumped, but don't expect to be speak like a pro after a bit of study. While you've obviously made great leaps reading and writing, it's a lot harder to practice speaking and conversation. The internet is your friend. There are tons of people out there who are desperate to do language exchanges on skype!


Also, I think that your Japanese will probably mirror your English. What I mean is, if you're a quite person who speaks quite slowly in English, don't expect that to change in Japanese. But likewise, if you speak quickly in English, that could well be the way it is in Japanese.

Finally, it's super lame but read outloud, just for practice. Unlike English, Japanese pronounciation is pretty simple (barring a few pitch things which are hard like 雨　ｖｓ　あめ（飴）), and you are actually able to correct yourself.

For what it's worth, Antimoon's position is not "no speaking or writing." This is Antimoon's position: don't make mistakes, particularly grammar or pronunciation mistakes.

So what about singing along to your favorite Japanese music? Or running a characters lines as you watch a movie. These are safe tasks: there's not much of a chance of you making mistakes when you're directly mimicking someone like that--and there's definite benefit to be had from practicing pronunciation in that way. A similar argument applies to reading sentence SRS items aloud--especially ones with audio.

All that Khatz, Antimoon, and Dr. Krashen are saying is that making your own sentences does not improve your ability to understand the language you're learning (if everyone did this, everyone would end up speaking different languages) nor improve your ability to output beyond what you can understand (you can't make what you can't understand).

For the more academically inclined, here's Krashen on language-acquisition from output: http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/compre...index.html

Mostly, output improves your confidence. But, I can't see how improving confidence without improving ability is beneficial--especially if you become confident in a mistake.

In any case, the OP has only been at this for 3 months.

wildweathel Wrote:So what about singing along to your favorite Japanese music? Or running a characters lines as you watch a movie. These are safe tasks: there's not much of a chance of you making mistakes when you're directly mimicking someone like that--and there's definite benefit to be had from practicing pronunciation in that way. A similar argument applies to reading sentence SRS items aloud--especially ones with audio.

Repeating something that is made for you is simply repetition, parroting. No, you're not going to make a mistake if you're just singing along. Sure, it might be beneficial, but it might also be nothing more than repetition.
I can remember being in preschool learning the Pledge of Allegiance, and then a few years down the line actually "listening" to what I was actually saying.
Heck, there's songs in German that I can sing along to, but that doesn't improve my ability to speak German.

wildweathel Wrote:All that Khatz, Antimoon, and Dr. Krashen are saying is that making your own sentences does not improve your ability to understand the language you're learning (if everyone did this, everyone would end up speaking different languages) nor improve your ability to output beyond what you can understand (you can't make what you can't understand).

Of course producing sentences doesn't improve your ability to understand the language any more than you already do. But outputting gets you used to coming up with content on your own.
It's like riding a bike:
You can watch people riding bikes (input). That might help you see what they're doing and learn "how" to ride the bike.
You can ride with training wheels (guided output, corrected mistakes). You're riding the bike, figuring out how it actually works, and riding.
Then you finally go on a real bike (real output), where if you do something wrong, you fall.

You won't learn too well if you just start on a real bike. You still need some guidance, you're not going to learn anything new on your own, but you still need to practice what you already know. Perhaps with training wheels.

wildweathel Wrote:Mostly, output improves your confidence. But, I can't see how improving confidence without improving ability is beneficial--especially if you become confident in a mistake.

Well...This is a question isn't it? Output improves confidence, sure. But what's the best way to ingrain vocab in your head? To USE it. Sure, you can have exposure exposure exposure via SRS or whatever. But it will really stick if it comes up in real life. Or if you get to USE IT in a conversation. Then the vocab will stick better.

IceCream Wrote:ok. its 3 months 16 days and a few hours since i started learning japanese properly. It's 2.7 months since i started SRSing.
i can pick up easy manga and read chunks without a dictionary. i can watch easy shows and get whats going on and what they're talking about. I can repeat audio ok.
but i don't feel like my ability to speak has improved at all in the time i have been SRSing. It takes me aaages to remember how to say/think things.
Am i some kind of speech retard or is this normal?

Completely normal.
A friend of mine went to Japan when she was a teenager for a year's language exchange. Even having studied Japanese before going, and being completely immersed in Japanese high-school, she said she barely spoke for the first 3 months, and it was 6 months before she started to feel comfortable speaking.
For what it's worth, she is now fluent ("native-like" fluent), working as a translator.

IceCream Wrote:How long did it take anyone else to start speaking and thinking in japanese?

I've been learning Japanese for more than 5 years (although the first 3-4 years were basically a waste of time). A year and a half ago I started RTK, and found AJATT. I still don't feel that comfortable speaking, unless it's really easy stuff.
But I put that down to a lack of real exposure (English speaking job + English speaking girlfriend = little time for Japanese ).

Earlier this year I spent a night out with a group of Japanese friends. By the end of the night I was thinking in Japanese, and since I got home late I didn't talk to my girlfriend - I woke up still thinking in Japanese. It's a really cool experience.

For 3 months study your Japanese is really advanced. I wouldn't worry at all, just keep up the exposure and it'll come.

Yea, after learning English 3 months 16 days and a few hours, I could barely comprehend "This is a pen." Reading manga and watching shows in such a short time are amazing.

IceCream,

I would suggest not focusing on output at all until you get to Japan. It is true that there is such a thing as a skill of speaking, you do need to train the muscles of your mouth. However, you are not losing anything by waiting until you are in situations where you need to use Japanese. Your input will never be wasted and is actually building up your ability to output. When you have a lot of input phrases will just pop into your head that match your context, being able to enunciate those phrases is a different ability, but you are already doing well given your snapvine post and Japanese is not that hard for English speakers IMO.

Also, listening does help pronunciation. I mentioned it before, but I am listening to the same episode of a drama over and over. I have found I can pronounce lines in that drama much better after hearing them many times. Even ones that are very quick. Listening will help your pron.

There is a guy on youtube called lingosteve who is a proponent of the input hypothesis (he speaks 10 languages) and one thing he said stuck with me. He said he has never met a person who can read well in a language that can't speak well. Read well meaning, read quickly without straining. It may not feel like it but you are doing exactly what you need to be doing to become awesome at Japanese.

My advice is think of yourself as a baby. You have probably not received as much input as a baby does before they start speaking, so don't try and force it. Once you get more and more input you will become more and more able to express yourself, but keep it simple and generally progress as a baby would.

That being said, there is stuff you can do now as long as it is fun and stuff you want to do. If you can do it without too much effort (as in you don't need to rely on thinking about grammar) then it is ok. Sites like http://kotonoha.cc/ could be good. Thinking is Japanese is also ok as long as you aren't forcing it.

The other really important thing to improving output is not breaking up your day with English. You are going to be stunting your progress if after doing some immersion or SRSing you come here and read a bunch of posts (which is why I am always trying to get a Japanese forum here). You need to build up a Japanese mode and this happens by not breaking out of Japanese. Eventually you will naturally start thinking in Japanese. The longer the better.

I once went to festival in Japan and spoke Japanese for 8 hours, then bumped into a foreigner. We started chatting in English. Japanese responses would pop into my head and I translated them into English and responded. This is how strong your Japanese mode can get if you consecutively input/output Japanese.

If you need to speak to people during the day in English that is ok, but avoid writing or reading English as much as you can. I can't do it now due to my life situation, but my general strategy is English stuff in the morning, then after that pure Japanese.

EDIT: This is also kind of interesting. http://www.antimoon.com/how/input-boydell.htm

thermal Wrote:Listening will help your pron.

This seems to be a common abbreviation for you, and I read it pr0n every. single. time.

you watch too much pr0n

masaman Wrote:you watch too much pr0n

You think that'll help with fluency?

ropsta Wrote:

masaman Wrote:you watch too much pr0n

You think that'll help with fluency?

My dad said never try to do things they do in pr0n in the real life, so I'm not sure :/

QuackingShoe Wrote:

thermal Wrote:Listening will help your pron.

This seems to be a common abbreviation for you, and I read it pr0n every. single. time.

Yeah pron is difficult. Pron includes not only mouth movements, but body movements as well. Only when one gets enough pron input can one hope to replicate these movements, so we need to get as much pron input and pron practice as we can.

thermal Wrote:

QuackingShoe Wrote:

thermal Wrote:Listening will help your pron.

This seems to be a common abbreviation for you, and I read it pr0n every. single. time.

Yeah pron is difficult. Pron includes not only mouth movements, but body movements as well. Only when one gets enough pron input can one hope to replicate these movements, so we need to get as much pron input and pron practice as we can.

I noticed that the tongue is used alot in good pron.

As for thinking in another language, it's as simple as starting from 1 word. When someone's frustrated, one to two words are known to come out, like "Aw man" or "Geez!" ...I'll refrain from using cuss words as examples Anyway, start actively doing that in Japanese, even if you gotta shout something like "わい！” instead of "Yay!" Whatever emotion you have going on, convert it into Japanese. Speech comes from emotions a lot, so as long as you have that, you'll have many chances througout the day to practice your output. Ever since I started just saying one word like that, my brain knew I was "supposed" to be thinking in Japanese, so unless it's really complex or math related (duh har 8B), or I'm typing something like this, I don't allow myself to think in English nearly as much. It's really an automatic process once you got the right mind set going.