-for those doing, or theorizing about the "sentence method"-
this is something i've been wondering for a while now.
how much of a sentence do you have to understand in order to put it into the srs? when i speak spanish or english, i don't really know what each and every word does in the sentence, or at least i don't think about it. it's the same when i listen, consciously, i don't parse the sentence word by word, but take it all as a whole. why should it be different with japanese.

take the sentence:
聞いたままの事をお話します。
do i really need to be able to understand what the まま is doing, or is it enough to know what the sentence means as a whole (the concept of it) and the cases where it is appropriate? (i do understand what the まま is doing, this is merely an example.)
do i need to know that?

what i'm getting at is, i don't think kids think about what each word does in a sentence, they just develop a feel for it. they learn what the words "do" by induction, from seeing them used in sentences they understand (by context). isn't trying to understand every grammatical point in a sentence the same as studying grammar before being fluent in the language?

in the expression
"esa camisa nueva te va bien"
before taking grammar in school, did i know "nueva" was an adjective modifying the noun "camisa" because of its relative position to the noun? and more importantly, the expression "te va bien" isn't something you would find in a dictionary, and it makes no sense whatsoever with the definition of "ir" on any dictionary i can find, but i know what it means, without ever thinking that "ir" has a secondary meaning of "suiting". if language is inherently idiomatic(is it?), is explicitly understanding the grammar necessary for fluency? (this last paragraph only makes sense if you know that "va" is a conjugated form of "ir"... or does it?)

what are your thoughts on the subject? and for those with a deeper knowledge of this, i'd love some recommendations on books about the nature of language, language acquisition, the relation between grammar and language, and such topics.

-i'm sorry if this has been discussed already, i did a search but couldn't find anything relating directly to this, though a lot of topics do touch on the subject tangentially.-

You need to understand the sentence, not every single portion of it. Of course, knowing what まま means allows you to use it, but that understanding will often come once you've seen it used enough.

I definitely feel there are many situations where knowing grammar explicitly is a good thing. Not because you have to do that to be fluent, natives usually don't, but because it allows you to correct your own mistakes and translate better. Instead of waiting for this "feel" to come, you can get a head start. (eventually, you want to attain that "feel" though.)

Don't learn the grammar explicitly unless you feel your ignorance of the meaning is hindering you.

Tobberoth Wrote:Don't learn the grammar explicitly unless you feel your ignorance of the meaning is hindering you.

This.

I started learning kanji and then vocab, and started to think I should be learning grammar. So I tried. It was pointless. I learned only the most basic bits and then the rest was just lost on me.

So I left it alone a while, kept reading and watching and studying... And went back. Now I understand a -lot- more of the grammar that I'm learning about, but not all of it.

As Tobberoth says, don't learn the grammar until you feel the actual need. It'll just frustrate you.