Hello all,

I’ve been searching around the net trying to find some sort of way to verify if my assumptions about RTK and to determine if I’ve created a proper course of action for learning Japanese.

For starters I’d like make sure I fully understand the use and benefits of RTK.

1) RTK is designed to teach me how to properly write Kanji

2) RTK is designed to give me an aid in not forgetting Kanji by using a system of creating a story that involves all sub-Kanji used to create Kanji of increased “difficulty”

3) The English meaning given to a Kanji in RTK1 is useful, as it is usually one of the meanings that can be associated with a Kanji and it aids in creating stories.

4) It will most likely be easier to a learn the Japanese word(s) associated with the Kanji if I take the time to first go through the entire book learning these primary meanings and how to properly write the Kanji.

5) When I finish all of RTK1 I will not be able to understand Japanese sentences simply because I know one of the meanings for a Kanji.

If any of these assumptions are incorrect, incomplete or there are additional things I should be aware of, please let me know.

Secondly I would like review my outline for study that I have devised to ensure that it makes sense and isn’t full of holes or backward steps.

1) Go through RTK1.

a. Use an SRS program for memorization, adding in as many Kanji in RTK
order that feel comfortable and natural to learn for the particular day (ie:
one chapter or 25 simple ones or a set of 10-15 all with similar base
kanji)
b. When adding to the SRS use English keyword on the front of the card
and the Kanji written on the back.
i. During review, when it shows the English keyword, stop and write the
Kanji
ii. Look at the answer
iii. Rate how hard it was based off of how long it took me to remember how
to write it
iv. If I start off with the wrong stroke, complete it in the wrong order or just
plain space it off, count that as a failed Kanji.
1. Determine why I failed and make adjustments to the story or drill
the stroke order, if needed.
c. Since I’m using Anki, which is hourly based, instead of daily, check for
reviews in the morning, my first work break, lunch, second work break,
when I get home, when I go to bed and during any spare moments.
Japanese doesn’t turn on for an hour a day so I shouldn’t try to box it
into one.
d. Look at Japanese newspapers online at the end of each day to see if I
can make out any Kanji.

2) Learn Katakana (I already learned Hiragana through my failed attempts
before to learn Japanese)

3) Go through RTK2.

a. Use an SRS program to learn the Japanese words for the Kanji (I would
use the words “meaning” and “reading” but I honestly don’t know if:
Japanese word=reading and English word=meaning, or not).
b. When adding to the SRS put the Hiragana for one of the Japanese words
that correlates with a Kanji on the front of the card, and the Kanji on the
back.
i. During the review, when it shows the Hiragana, stop, read the word, and
then write the Kanji
ii. Look at the answer
iii. Rate how hard it was based off of how long it took to remember what
Kanji related to the word
iv. If I forget the Kanji that relates to the word, start off with the wrong
stroke, complete it in the wrong order, or space it off, count that as a fail
1. For failure, kick myself swiftly in the groin, because I’m not quite
sure what I can do to help me remember a foreign word in
relationship to a Kanji.
c. Since I’m using Anki, which is hourly based, instead of daily, check for
reviews in the morning, my first work break, lunch, second work break,
when I get home, when I go to bed and during any spare moments.
Japanese doesn’t turn on for an hour a day so I shouldn’t try to box it
into one.

4) Start reading accuracy checked Japanese materials, such as Manga, printed
instructions, and online newspapers.

a. Try reading a sentence
i. If it doesn’t make sense look up word combinations in a Japanese
dictionary to see if the words form Kanji clusters.
1. If words combine to make a Kanji cluster, add the Kanji cluster into
the SRS.
a. Put the hiragana and English word for the new Japanese word on
the front, and then place the Kanji (plural?) on the back.
ii. Continue to enter all of the individual words that are made up of multiple
Kanji into the SRS.
iii. When you have figured out all the words add the whole sentence into
the SRS.
a. Place the sentence on the front of the card, and place the Kanji with
furigana on the back.
b. Do not include an English translation, because the goal is to start
thinking in Japanese.
iv. Learn grammar as you go

5) Start to watch Anime and Japanese TV, to be done while working on step 4.

a. Do not use English subtitles
b. Do use Japanese subtitles
c. Input new words into the SRS following the same method as with step 4.

6) Listen to Japanese music, to be done while working on step 4 and 5.

a. Sing along like a swank Casanova

7) You have now mastered Japanese. There is nothing more than can be
learned – ever.

If there are any problems, areas for improvement, or things that I have overlooked (rather quite possible, seeing how I’m new to all this), please let me know so I can make adjustments before I’m much further down the road.
For reference here is where I am currently in step 1 and have been studying as follows:

I’m at 160 Kanji entered into Anki
I know the English keywords given for all of them
I can write all 160 with about 98% of them being at the “easy” level
I have been learning approximately 20-25 a day
I review Anki at home, and online at work, about 8 times a day
After a day of learning new words I write them on a Kanji chart I am making
Each day I scan a Japanese newspaper online to see if any of the new Kanji that I know appear, but I don’t try to read the sentences really.

Any and all insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Damn. That's well-formated.

From just looking at your main steps I can tell you RTK2 isn't looked highly upon around here though, but I'll wait for someone else to expand on that.

ryuudou Wrote:...That's well-formated.

From just looking at your main steps I can tell you RTK2 isn't looked highly upon around here though, but I'll wait for someone else to expand on that.

I'm an Administrative Assistant (Male Secretary) so formatting is what I do.

I've also read around the net that RTKII isn't highly looked upon, but I wasn't sure of an alternative way of learning the readings (assuming that "readings" does in fact equal "Japanese word for the Kanji." But, this is the point of the post after all, to get suggestions. So, if somebody knows a better method for learning the readings, then by all means, please do tell.

I wouldn't bother with RTK2 just jump straight into real sentences... why have a dog and bark yourself?

If you want to be really good at the language, I suggest Step 5 be the first. You can do it in conjunction with RtK as well.

You can't learn sounds you have never heard. IPA and other phonetic transcriptions are useful, but they are just an aid. You have to listen to real sounds to produce them, I think. Also, it seems to me that reading before learning phonetics through real stuff has a certain detrimental effect on your listening and speaking skills. If humans were so good at guessing proper phonemes from printed materials, there wouldn't be the word "foreign accent" in the first place. Listening skills also seem to suffer to some extent because it creates a certain discrepancy between the actual sounds and what you expect.

magamo Wrote:If you want to be really good at the language, I suggest Step 5 be the first. You can do it in conjunction with RtK as well.

You can't learn sounds you have never heard. IPA and other phonetic transcriptions are useful, but they are just an aid. You have to listen to real sounds to produce them, I think. Also, it seems to me that reading before learning phonetics through real stuff has a certain detrimental effect on your listening and speaking skills. If humans were so good at guessing proper phonemes from printed materials, there wouldn't be the word "foreign accent" in the first place. Listening skills also seem to suffer to some extent because it creates a certain discrepancy between the actual sounds and what you expect.

Agreed. Do this from the get go. Stuff is shortened majorly in casual speech and so it's a bit different from what you'll find written at times... a good example being わからない getting shortened to what sounds like わかんない sometimes.

wonderflex Wrote:Hello all,

I’ve been searching around the net trying to find some sort of way to verify if my assumptions about RTK and to determine if I’ve created a proper course of action for learning Japanese.

For starters I’d like make sure I fully understand the use and benefits of RTK.
........
If any of these assumptions are incorrect, incomplete or there are additional things I should be aware of, please let me know.

Good assumptions all around.

wonderflex Wrote:Secondly I would like review my outline for study that I have devised to ensure that it makes sense and isn’t full of holes or backward steps.

1) Go through RTK1.

c. Since I’m using Anki, which is hourly based, instead of daily, check for
reviews in the morning, my first work break, lunch, second work break,
when I get home, when I go to bed and during any spare moments.
Japanese doesn’t turn on for an hour a day so I shouldn’t try to box it
into one.

1) c. I'd disagree with C in part. Now, you can study all that time, thinking of stories and learning new Kanji. However, with Anki, get in the habit of reviewing a set time per day. If you can handle small chunks throughout the day, then that's good.

However, Resolve (Damien) altered Anki to act more as a "study what needs to be studied at that time, when finished come back tomorrow" instead of "keep open, review what's come due throughout the day".

wonderflex Wrote:2) Learn Katakana (I already learned Hiragana through my failed attempts
before to learn Japanese)

2) If you're watching Japanese or posting Japanese stuff all around you, there's no harm is learning Hiragana and Katakana first (via RTKana, naturally.... well, I'm partial to it at least).

wonderflex Wrote:3) Go through RTK2.

3) Not many here recommend RTK2. Some go straight to mining and learning reading via context. Others learned onyomi via memory palace (movie method a well discussed variant here).

wonderflex Wrote:4) Start reading accuracy checked Japanese materials, such as Manga, printed
instructions, and online newspapers.

a. Try reading a sentence
i. If it doesn’t make sense look up word combinations in a Japanese
dictionary to see if the words form Kanji clusters.
1. If words combine to make a Kanji cluster, add the Kanji cluster into
the SRS.
a. Put the hiragana and English word for the new Japanese word on
the front, and then place the Kanji (plural?) on the back.
ii. Continue to enter all of the individual words that are made up of multiple
Kanji into the SRS.
iii. When you have figured out all the words add the whole sentence into
the SRS.
a. Place the sentence on the front of the card, and place the Kanji with
furigana on the back.
b. Do not include an English translation, because the goal is to start
thinking in Japanese.
iv. Learn grammar as you go

4) There's also the subs2srs program as a source here.

a i. For the vocabulary, you can kind of "cheat" and used pre-made decks like KO2001, iKnow, KIC and Tanuki that have brief definitions of the words. Suspend all cards in the deck, unsuspend the words that come up in your mining. Saves effort of looking for sample sentences for the words at the minimum.

a iii. Early on you can cheat. You'll need more English cause your Japanese is not strong enough to support you, so having an English translation (if available) can be useful. In addition, you can have Kanji sentence on the front with the kana. This is better if done with Anki on it's own field, so that later (say in 1000 or 2000 sentences) you can make the card harder by moving the Kanji part to the back.

If you follow AJATT's blog, you'll notice he did Kanji on the front early on, it was after fluency his wife offered the idea of going kana to kanji.

a iv. You can learn grammar as you go. However, since basic Japanese grammar is so simple and predictable, it's kind of beneficial to get learn those grammar sentences early on. Compare it to learning Kanji via RTK, it's not necessary, but it gives a lot of bang for the buck. Advanced grammar gets into that gray area where RTK3 and beyond lies: useful, but the benefits for the time invested don't match up to the ease of learning as you go along. Similar idea goes for learning basic vocabulary upfront (say top 1000 words used in variety of Manga and Dramas).

wonderflex Wrote:5) Start to watch Anime and Japanese TV, to be done while working on step 4.

a. Do not use English subtitles
b. Do use Japanese subtitles
c. Input new words into the SRS following the same method as with step 4.

5) c. It takes effort to learn new words. Definitely watch lots of anime, TV, movies for enjoyment. However, pick one you'll use a "resource" for step 4. Since you're watching, start this step before step 1.

wonderflex Wrote:6) Listen to Japanese music, to be done while working on step 4 and 5.

a. Sing along like a swank Casanova

6) This step can be done before Step 1 also. Sing along can be via Karaoke (or print out of lyrics) then later from memory. You can also use songs as a resource for Step 4, though mainly as a vocabulary mining, not a sentence mining resource.

wonderflex Wrote:7) You have now mastered Japanese. There is nothing more than can be
learned – ever.

If there are any problems, areas for improvement, or things that I have overlooked (rather quite possible, seeing how I’m new to all this), please let me know so I can make adjustments before I’m much further down the road.
......
Thanks!

Well, mastered is such a strong word. But I'm sure you'll have more fun in Japanese than someone that didn't do your steps.

Just be willing to adapt as you see fit. You'll know what's working and what isn't as time goes on. You've got an outstanding road map laid out, and you're walking it. Good skills to you.

I found step 5 to be quite frustrating early on, before I had learned enough vocabulary and grammar to make sense of things, but that's just me. I'd most certainly, at the very least, listen to things as much as possible. If you have an MP3 player, even better - load up on any podcasts or audiobooks of interest and listen whenever possible. You don't even need to concentrate and focus on the audio, simply listen passively while going about your day. A few hours of passive listening a day will absolutely help, and I recommend you start as soon as possible!

First of all... that was one of the best (clear sentences/thoughts & well formated) posts I've ever seen

As for your assumptions they are all correct. I wish I was that thorough and systematic with gathering knowledge before jumping in into RTK, would save me a lot of bumps along the way

For your work plan I'd just drop RTK2 and start mining sentences from various sources. I'm not at that stage yet but I can't wait to actually start learning Japanese so doing RTK2 seems impossible motivation wise.

I'd like to reiterate:

Get some exposure now! Don't wait for step 5. Step 5 will be a lot easier if you've already had enough exposure to be able to pick apart words and understand the syllables, even if you can't understand the actual words.

If I knew then what I know now, I'd have done some things the same but a few different:

0) Decide on a media immersion environment, fill your life with it--doesn't matter if you understand the Japanese yet, just get familiar with the language.

1) Heisig's Reviewing the Kana, doing reviews w/ Anki: This will get you used to the method + get the writing system's building blocks down pat.

2) When you've finished Reviewing the Kana:
- RTK Lite, or some other shortened version (I still think making a version of RTK Lite based on KO/iKnow would be best)
- Japanese the Manga Way or Tae Kim's grammar guide and Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, taking sentences that illustrate grammar points, and focusing just on those points, those aspects of how sentences are constructed. (JtheMW will also show you good ways to deconstruct sentences for when you do the 'sentence method' in earnest in the next step.)

3) When you've finished RTK Lite:
- Continue doing RTK1 and perhaps finding 'intermediate grammar' sources (such as the aptly titled Dictionary of Intermediate Grammar) while
- Importing the compiled Kanji Odyssey lists at smart.fm into Anki and studying sentences for readings & vocabulary & internalizing the basic grammar you picked up in step 2. Also, I think it's best to use the audio from those sentences to listen/emulate. (That is, make sure you can understand the speech, mimic it aloud, know and can write the words in the sentence, understand how the whole sentence fits together to form its overall meaning.)

4) By now you'll be finished w/ RTK1, have a basic grasp of grammar, have a big chunk of common vocabulary words that reflect the kanji you've learned, and you can start advancing your grammar and begin using natural sources or graded readers or books liked Read Real Japanese and, say, the subs2srs program to create sentence collections that you like. Also, you'll have been continuing step 0's media immersion as well.

I'm probably forgetting stuff and wouldn't adhere exactly to this anyway, but oh well.

The only thing I would recommend (other than what people have already recommended) is that you don't fail the kanji if you got something little wrong, like the spacing. Especially in the beginning, the spacing and size of the elements in the kanji are something that you'll eventually just get a feel for. I also recommend doing all your writing practice with a thin pen on graph paper, just to get used to it.

Once you actually know all the kanji pretty well, then maybe be difficult about spacing and how neatly you're writing them

magamo Wrote:If you want to be really good at the language, I suggest Step 5 be the first. You can do it in conjunction with RtK as well.

Will do. I've actually started this one already, but I wasn't sure if I would start accidently thinking I heard a word one way, but since I didn't actually know the word I would learn it incorrectly.

In the past I've always watched about an episode of Anime a night and three to four a day on the weekends. This was with English subtitles turned on though. I think that I'll just turn the subtitles off now.

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Nukemarine Wrote:2) If you're watching Japanese or posting Japanese stuff all around you, there's no harm is learning Hiragana and Katakana first (via RTKana, naturally.... well, I'm partial to it at least).

Will do. I had one time been able to reproduce the Katakana, but due to frustration that plauged me in the past from trying to give myself overload I simply pushed it out of my brain. (I was trying to learn with five different sources at once, but none of them meshed together at all. It was too much, too fast).

Nukemarine Wrote:3) Not many here recommend RTK2. Some go straight to mining and learning reading via context. Others learned onyomi via memory palace (movie method a well discussed variant here).

Let's say I don't due RTK2 and I start mining, then do I simply look of each Kanji I come accross online and then add a reading for it into my SRS?

Nukemarine Wrote:a i. For the vocabulary, you can kind of "cheat" and used pre-made decks like KO2001, iKnow, KIC and Tanuki that have brief definitions of the words. Suspend all cards in the deck, unsuspend the words that come up in your mining. Saves effort of looking for sample sentences for the words at the minimum.

I'll look into this, but for some reason things seem to stick better if I'm the one who had to input them.

Nukemarine Wrote:a iii. Early on you can cheat. You'll need more English cause your Japanese is not strong enough to support you, so having an English translation (if available) can be useful. In addition, you can have Kanji sentence on the front with the kana. This is better if done with Anki on it's own field, so that later (say in 1000 or 2000 sentences) you can make the card harder by moving the Kanji part to the back.

If you follow AJATT's blog, you'll notice he did Kanji on the front early on, it was after fluency his wife offered the idea of going kana to kanji.

Maybe I explained this part incorrectly. What I was trying to say is that I would have the sentence as is on the front, with the Kanji, kana, or whatever else it says, on the front. On the back I would have the same sentence, except under the Kanji I would have the furigana on the back to make sure I said the word correctly. I will also take the advice of having English on it, provided that the source has English. I'm not so sure I like the idea of translating something myself.

Nukemarine Wrote:a iv. You can learn grammar as you go. However, since basic Japanese grammar is so simple and predictable, it's kind of beneficial to get learn those grammar sentences early on. Compare it to learning Kanji via RTK, it's not necessary, but it gives a lot of bang for the buck.

I have a beginners grammar book, so I'll throw that in too after I finish RTK1. Finishing RTK1 is top priority for me. I WILL finish it.

Nukemarine Wrote:Well, mastered is such a strong word. But I'm sure you'll have more fun in Japanese than someone that didn't do your steps.

Yeah...that was a joke. Nobody "masters" Japanese, or English, or any language. There has to be something you can still learn. But if can sit down, watch me some Anime, read me some Manga, and won't need to look anything up (on a regular basis that is) then I'll feel as if I've at least made it my servant - even if I'm not it's master.

Nukemarine Wrote:Just be willing to adapt as you see fit. You'll know what's working and what isn't as time goes on. You've got an outstanding road map laid out, and you're walking it. Good skills to you.

Thanks. I was hoping that I had drafted up something worth while.

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Burritolingus Wrote:I'd most certainly, at the very least, listen to things as much as possible.

I currently have 1000 anime opennings and endings. I love listening to them because the words always seem really clear to me. When listening to things such as Supercar or the Pillows I often can't even tell what they are saying, although I still like it. With anime soundtracks it seems like I can sing along, even when I don't know what the words mean. I've been able to sing the Evengelion song (or at least something that sounds close to it) for a long time now and when I used this song recognition software on my Iphone it correctly detected it.

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wccrawford Wrote:I'd like to reiterate:

Get some exposure now! Don't wait for step 5. Step 5 will be a lot easier if you've already had enough exposure to be able to pick apart words and understand the syllables, even if you can't understand the actual words.

I guess I should have posted this in the origional post, but I already do expose myself to lots of a Japanese. I watch Anime all the time, but it has always been with subtitles on. In fact I've been watching anime since I was 5 years old, and even hosted this event. I listen to anime soundtracks as I practice with Anki. Also, I spent three weeks in Japan in March.

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sup3rbon Wrote:The only thing I would recommend (other than what people have already recommended) is that you don't fail the kanji if you got something little wrong, like the spacing. Especially in the beginning, the spacing and size of the elements in the kanji are something that you'll eventually just get a feel for. I also recommend doing all your writing practice with a thin pen on graph paper, just to get used to it.

Once you actually know all the kanji pretty well, then maybe be difficult about spacing and how neatly you're writing them

Don't worry, I don't fail a Kanji for spacing or size. I figured, as you said, that I would obtain a feeling for this as I go. I fail a Kanji for incorrect stoke order, starting off with an incorrect stroke (for example in my head I start to write the Kanji for "head" but then change it up and realize that I was supposed to write "meadow" or some other Kanji that starts with a straight horizontal line), or if I simply forget it.

The graph paper idea is a great one. I already use a thin gel pen for writting though. When I went to Japan everybody was loading up on gel pens, so I figured it must be the writting tool of choice.

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Sweet! Thank you all for the suggestions. I will now make some modifications to my study outline and hopefully be the better for it. If anybody else has additional insite, please chime in.

wonderflex Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:3) Not many here recommend RTK2. Some go straight to mining and learning reading via context. Others learned onyomi via memory palace (movie method a well discussed variant here).

Let's say I don't due RTK2 and I start mining, then do I simply look of each Kanji I come accross online and then add a reading for it into my SRS?

Yes. In fact, you have to do that anyway, even if you do RtK2 or any other technique. Almost every single kanji has at least two readings, most have many more. People who learn the readings by using various techniques get a slightly better ability to guess which reading to use, but the only way to know for sure is to look it up, and you need to understand everything you input into an SRS. Summary: When you input a sentence, you have to look up the reading of every word you don't know, even if you've studied the readings of all the kanji. (Anki automatically gives you the reading though, so you don't have to bring up a dictionary for each word, my point is that learning the readings isn't all that useful.)

Just enter sentences and let Anki give you the readings and rate your cards depending on if you remembered the readings of the words. If you do, you will eventually learn the various readings of the kanji automatically. For example, say you've entered 相当 (soutou), 担当 (tantou) and 本当(hontou) in your SRS. After a few weeks of reviewing that, is there any chance that you still won't know that 当 can be read tou?

wonderflex Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:3) Not many here recommend RTK2. Some go straight to mining and learning reading via context. Others learned onyomi via memory palace (movie method a well discussed variant here).

Let's say I don't due RTK2 and I start mining, then do I simply look of each Kanji I come accross online and then add a reading for it into my SRS?

Kind of goes with the second part here. I have a "vocabulary" deck, which are Kanji and Kana word, Kanji and Kana sentence, and english word and sentence. The vocabulary word IS the reading. If I test Kanji to Kana, I have to know how to pronounce the word to pass the card. That's what I meant by learning via context.

wonderflex Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:a i. For the vocabulary, you can kind of "cheat" and used pre-made decks like KO2001, iKnow, KIC and Tanuki that have brief definitions of the words. Suspend all cards in the deck, unsuspend the words that come up in your mining. Saves effort of looking for sample sentences for the words at the minimum.

I'll look into this, but for some reason things seem to stick better if I'm the one who had to input them.

Technically you are inputting them yourself. For me, as I'm going through the dramas in my Sentence mining SRS, I sometimes find new words which I post in notepad (I also add a kenkyuusha definition into my sentence mining SRS). After I'm done mining, I look up each of those words in the notepad in my vocabulary SRS and unsuspend the card if it the word is there as a vocabulary listing. If the word is there, but not as its own vocabulary, I add that word to the vocabulary spot and underline it in the sentence. Then I unsuspend the card. Lastly, when I review these new cards, I write out the sentence by hand the first time through.

I think I put as much effort via that pre-made material as a person would looking up a sample sentence in an online dictionary or some such. With that much effort, I think it's qualified as "learned" so now in Anki it's now being "remembered".

If I just unsuspended these are just started reviewing, I think I'd get a lot more missed up front. Like this, my New Reviews have a 89% pass rate on 1100 cards (did calculations on the matter to cancel out initial review which was always 100%). My young card pass rate is also 89% as well over 6000 reviews in that area. Much, much better than what happened with RTK my first few months.

Tobberoth Wrote:

wonderflex Wrote:Let's say I don't due RTK2 and I start mining, then do I simply look of each Kanji I come accross online and then add a reading for it into my SRS?

Yes. In fact, you have to do that anyway, even if you do RtK2 or any other technique. Almost every single kanji has at least two readings, most have many more. People who learn the readings by using various techniques get a slightly better ability to guess which reading to use, but the only way to know for sure is to look it up, and you need to understand everything you input into an SRS. Summary: When you input a sentence, you have to look up the reading of every word you don't know, even if you've studied the readings of all the kanji. (Anki automatically gives you the reading though, so you don't have to bring up a dictionary for each word, my point is that learning the readings isn't all that useful.)

I know I'm not at this stage yet, but I want to make sure I do things correctly when I do get there. So, is this what I would do:

1. Look at a sentence
2. Look at each Kanji and learn the Japanese word and meaning for it.
3. After looking at all the Kanji figure out for myself which of the Japanese words and meanings make sense for the sentence.

For example, if I have a some sentence written out with Kanji and one of them could mean "page" or "head" then I should figure out which of the two it is on my own based off of context? With a sentence like, "He was in an car wreck and severly injured his ____." I would assume that the Kanji should be read using the Japanese reading for "head" instead of "page." (unless of course the entire story was about a man's undying love for a rare, out-of-print, book and durring the wreck the last page was torn.).

Also, I have another question about my study plan/method.

While learning new Kanji I've been trying very hard to stick with the stories provided, but is it okay if I deviate to something very simple if I'm able to remember it. Here are some examples:

1. For "Riot" it's easy for me to remember, "Tounges bash in cars with fishooks." When I go to write the Kanji out I say outloud to myself, "A thousand mouths use fishooks to bash in cars." I never forget it, but it also has nothing to do with the story he gives.

2. For "Ashes" I don't even really have a story, I just think "throw ashes off a cliff" and I draw out "cliff" and then "fire" under it. Even though "fire" isn't anywhere to be found in the story I seem to always relate because the fire just seems to be a natural extention of ashes in my mind.

Also, is it okay that I've created my own weird clusters of Kanji (by the way, what is the correct term a when smaller kanji form a word, and then that Kanji is included in another one? Is it "primative."

An example of using my own cluster of Kanji would be Kanji for "Lake." I always tell myself that it is "water filled with Inferi." Inferi are the old flesh creatures found in the Hary Potter world - the also happen to live in a lake. So it always reminds me to draw "water, old, flesh." Should this be an okay practice if I make sure that the name I give a group of Kanji isn't the real name for an already created group?

wonderflex Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

wonderflex Wrote:Let's say I don't due RTK2 and I start mining, then do I simply look of each Kanji I come accross online and then add a reading for it into my SRS?

Yes. In fact, you have to do that anyway, even if you do RtK2 or any other technique. Almost every single kanji has at least two readings, most have many more. People who learn the readings by using various techniques get a slightly better ability to guess which reading to use, but the only way to know for sure is to look it up, and you need to understand everything you input into an SRS. Summary: When you input a sentence, you have to look up the reading of every word you don't know, even if you've studied the readings of all the kanji. (Anki automatically gives you the reading though, so you don't have to bring up a dictionary for each word, my point is that learning the readings isn't all that useful.)

I know I'm not at this stage yet, but I want to make sure I do things correctly when I do get there. So, is this what I would do:

1. Look at a sentence
2. Look at each Kanji and learn the Japanese word and meaning for it.
3. After looking at all the Kanji figure out for myself which of the Japanese words and meanings make sense for the sentence.

For example, if I have a some sentence written out with Kanji and one of them could mean "page" or "head" then I should figure out which of the two it is on my own based off of context? With a sentence like, "He was in an car wreck and severly injured his ____." I would assume that the Kanji should be read using the Japanese reading for "head" instead of "page." (unless of course the entire story was about a man's undying love for a rare, out-of-print, book and durring the wreck the last page was torn.).

You don't have to think about it, I think. Take these two sentences for example:
あなたの食べ方がちょっと変だよ。(anata no tabekata ga chotto hen da yo) - Your way of eating is wierd. (Note that 方 is read kata in this sentence)
あなたの食べ物の方がいいね。 (anata no tabemono no hou ga ii ne) - Your food is better, huh. (Note that 方 is read hou in this sentence).

Don't mind the sentences, I just made them up, just take note of how 方 is read differently in those two sentences. We discussed this on the forum yesterday I think, and many people came up with some rules of how to know when 方 is read kata and when it's read hou. What I'm thinking though is that it's not important. You CAN learn rules and memorize, but it isn't going to help you in the long run and you don't need it. Just learn it as seperate words or phrases. 方がいい is read hou ga ii, 食べ方 is read tabekata. You don't have to actually know why, you will learn it automatically from exposure as you have sentences which use 方. And remember, this is a very hard example, most kanji are quite obvious. The point I'm trying to get across is that you should learn readings for each word, not readings for each kanji. Learning that 来 can be read both "rai" and "tai" isn't all that important, what's important is to learn that 未来 is read mirai and 出来 is read shuttai. You can't ever really read a word from scratch without learning it first anyway, so you shouldn't have that as a goal. The important thing is to know how to read the words you know.

wonderflex Wrote:Also, I have another question about my study plan/method.

While learning new Kanji I've been trying very hard to stick with the stories provided, but is it okay if I deviate to something very simple if I'm able to remember it. Here are some examples:

1. For "Riot" it's easy for me to remember, "Tounges bash in cars with fishooks." When I go to write the Kanji out I say outloud to myself, "A thousand mouths use fishooks to bash in cars." I never forget it, but it also has nothing to do with the story he gives.

2. For "Ashes" I don't even really have a story, I just think "throw ashes off a cliff" and I draw out "cliff" and then "fire" under it. Even though "fire" isn't anywhere to be found in the story I seem to always relate because the fire just seems to be a natural extention of ashes in my mind.

Also, is it okay that I've created my own weird clusters of Kanji (by the way, what is the correct term a when smaller kanji form a word, and then that Kanji is included in another one? Is it "primative."

An example of using my own cluster of Kanji would be Kanji for "Lake." I always tell myself that it is "water filled with Inferi." Inferi are the old flesh creatures found in the Hary Potter world - the also happen to live in a lake. So it always reminds me to draw "water, old, flesh." Should this be an okay practice if I make sure that the name I give a group of Kanji isn't the real name for an already created group?

Don't worry about the stories. Heisig stops giving you stories in the end so you have to make them up regardless. One thing to be slightly careful with though is mixing up primitives in the stories. For example, in your first story there, you have "bash in cars". You later learn the primitive 車 which means car, so later when you're trying to remember 乱, there is the risk that you might think 車 should be in the kanji since you have "car" in your story. I wouldn't worry about it though, you generally get a different feeling for car in the stories where the primitive is present.

Tobberoth - Thanks for the clarification. I'm not too worried about the whole "car" thing much either. As a whole I think that I am starting to forget some of the early stories anyway as the charcters start to become second nature. Also, the car seems to just to be a generic object in a the story that can be beat up by rioters weilding giant fishooks.

mezbup Wrote:I wouldn't bother with RTK2 just jump straight into real sentences... why have a dog and bark yourself?

Though I think RTK2 is a decent read - there are some interesting comments/methods in it that you can take and run with. I just wouldn't dwell on it and use it in parallel to ajatt-esque sentence methods.

I'm going to add onto this, because now I'm a bit farther down the road and I want to make sure that I have some additional assumptions correct about RTK.

1) At some point a Kanji should become so familiar that the story will fade away, and it will be created just from knowing what it is.

2) After I finish RTK the keywords will also need to fade away, and be replaced with Japanese keyword(s) instead.

4) Don't take shortcuts. If I fail a Kanji don't try to shortcut the possible flaw in the story by using brute force to memorize it. For example, if I always seem to forget the character for "Tea" - instead of just writting it over a hundred times I should make up a better story that envokes my imagination, allowing for easier memorization. Or is brute force okay sometimes?

5) I am only learning single Kanji, so I will need to eventually learn words that are made up multiple Kanji.

6) When I finish RTK I should change my Anki cards over to having hiragana on the back instead of English.

7) After I am finished I should make a different card with hiragana on the front for each reading of a Kanji, and have the Kanji on back.

Sorry for some many questions, but I'm one those type of people who would rather measure five times and cut once.

Thanks in advance.

wonderflex Wrote:2) After I finish RTK the keywords will also need to fade away, and be replaced with Japanese keyword(s) instead.

No, you don't need a 'keyword'. After RTK you'll move on to learning words that use the kanji. People around here typically learn the words using context like sentences.

Quote:7) After I am finished I should make a different card with hiragana on the front for each reading of a Kanji, and have the Kanji on back.

What, like drilling on/kun-yomi to kanji? Don't do that...

wonderflex Wrote:4) Don't take shortcuts. If I fail a Kanji don't try to shortcut the possible flaw in the story by using brute force to memorize it. For example, if I always seem to forget the character for "Tea" - instead of just writting it over a hundred times I should make up a better story that envokes my imagination, allowing for easier memorization. Or is brute force okay sometimes?

well, i don't see anything wrong, per se, with mere memorization. the problem here is, it is not a shortcut, at all. it takes longer to memorize, and requires more frequent repetition to maintain the ability to recall the kanji (at least, for the first few days). if, however, you want to spend the extra time brute-forcing it, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it ^^.

yukamina Wrote:

wonderflex Wrote:2) After I finish RTK the keywords will also need to fade away, and be replaced with Japanese keyword(s) instead.

No, you don't need a 'keyword'. After RTK you'll move on to learning words that use the kanji. People around here typically learn the words using context like sentences.

Quote:7) After I am finished I should make a different card with hiragana on the front for each reading of a Kanji, and have the Kanji on back.

What, like drilling on/kun-yomi to kanji? Don't do that...

So, I won't be learning how to say individual Kanji. Instead I'll be learning how to say words, made up of multiple Kanji? So, when I look at a sentence I'll need to figure out which group of Kanji form a word in Japanese, and then learn said word?

So, for example, if there are three Kanji all right next to each other, I wouldn't speak out the three of them indidually and it would form a word. Rather, I would notice the three of them, realize that those three make a certain word, and then learn what the word is that corisponds with them?

I guess a lot of the part about reading really throws me off. It's probably because I have some sort of fundimental misunderstanding about how Kanji work when combined.