It wouldn't be a "ban" just because you are on it. You would just need more paperworks. Paperworks can be a headache but it's nothing a good preparation can take care of. If you actually get banned, that'll be a different story...

I think terrorist watchlist "victims" are normally denied both visas and visa waivers. My knowledge on this matter comes only from internet media though.

I'm just on a FBI list, so it's probably not the "terrorist list" then. May be I'm registered on a Japanese pervert list or something

俺はエッチかもしれないけど、そんなリストに載るほどじゃないよ！！！

masaman Wrote:you wouldn't get banned for causing a scene at the immigration, ESPECIALLY if you were a mother of an American citizen.

She was pregnant but not showing yet when she got barred. She was told she wasn't even allowed on a flight that had a layover in the US so now she has to take indirect flights from Japan to Brazil when going to see family.

masaman Wrote:

ropsta Wrote:Whether you agree with her view or not, this is the sort of image this program is conveying to her and thousands of others. There's no way to spin this into a positive. Not for me at least.

So Japan should just let it slide and make them homeless? A lot of them are already receiving unemployment benefits for months from the government and it's not like Japan has mountains of money trees, especially with the economy like this. It's obviously not "positive", but then what's the better idea? I dunno....

Say these individuals were not from a different country (like a Japan born citizen), would they still be paid to leave? Probably not. It would be absurd. There would be more deliberation on to what to do about the problem. I'm sure they had far better ideas than this one. This was probably just the cheapest. Or maybe I should be less cynical.

bodhisamaya Wrote:

masaman Wrote:you wouldn't get banned for causing a scene at the immigration, ESPECIALLY if you were a mother of an American citizen.

She was pregnant but not showing yet when she got barred. She was told she wasn't even allowed on a flight that had a layover in the US so now she has to take indirect flights from Japan to Brazil when going to see family.

mmm. It sounds like a good immigration lawyer is the best option, but yea, they cost several grands... I would definitely check with the immigration office though. Immigration officers often make things up.

頑張って！

kazelee Wrote:

masaman Wrote:

ropsta Wrote:Whether you agree with her view or not, this is the sort of image this program is conveying to her and thousands of others. There's no way to spin this into a positive. Not for me at least.

So Japan should just let it slide and make them homeless? A lot of them are already receiving unemployment benefits for months from the government and it's not like Japan has mountains of money trees, especially with the economy like this. It's obviously not "positive", but then what's the better idea? I dunno....

Say these individuals were not from a different country (like a Japan born citizen), would they still be paid to leave? Probably not. It would be absurd. There would be more deliberation on to what to do about the problem. I'm sure they had far better ideas than this one. This was probably just the cheapest. Or maybe I should be less cynical.

How many Japanese born Japanese people speak Portuguese better than Japanese? Plus, it's not like that's the only thing they are doing. They are doing research and trying to create jobs for them too.

http://www.sanyo.oni.co.jp/newsk/2009/07...05891.html

You called it "incentive", but it's more like "support" for people who want to go back but don't have the money, and it is just one of the measures they are taking. Again, I don't think it is "positive", but I think it makes some sense and perceiving it as GTFO money is, while I understand the feelings, kind of emotional.

"City Aids Homeless With One-Way Tickets Home"
New York City, that is. (wonder if that was offered when I left NYC...)

Edit: On the Brazilian nikei - My mind keeps returning to the fact that a group of people discriminated against in Brazil for being Japanese are then discriminated in Japan for being Brazilian. Sad.

I think there's potential for one positive outcome, however. The Japanese government might realize that the essentialist basis for its policy of allowing in only workers from the Japanese diaspora was misguided. Looking Japanese doesn't make you Japanese. (either does AJATT btw... =] ) The migrant workers in the news (and parks) awhile back were Iranian and most of them are gone now. Replacing them with Brazilian Japanese didn't solve the 'foreigner problems'. Hopefully this knowledge will have some positive influence on employment and immigration policy reform as well as the treatment of 3rd generation Korean-Japanese (who by comparison might start to seem more Japanese...) [headshake]

There's certianly room for improvement in Japanese policy, but it's worth noting that the majority of the Brazilian workers were not looking to attain Japanese citizenship or reside permanently in Japan. According to what I've read, most intended to earn money then return to Brazil.

Regarding Iranians in Japan: "In 1992, prompted by worsening economic conditions, Japan terminated the visa-free agreement with Iran, and began serious efforts to deport illegal overstayers." (Went from about 33,000 to 6,000.)

masaman Wrote:How many Japanese born Japanese people speak Portuguese better than Japanese? Plus, it's not like that's the only thing they are doing. They are doing research and trying to create jobs for them too.

http://www.sanyo.oni.co.jp/newsk/2009/07...05891.html

You called it "incentive", but it's more like "support" for people who want to go back but don't have the money, and it is just one of the measures they are taking. Again, I don't think it is "positive", but I think it makes some sense and perceiving it as GTFO money is, while I understand the feelings, kind of emotional.

But the vast majority of the people on this planet are just that, emotional. How they perceive something is how it is to them. With the countries reputation (whether true or false), things like this don't help.

先輩 Wrote:"City Aids Homeless With One-Way Tickets Home"
New York City, that is.

ここも

That's stupider. (ehm even more stupid)

Quote:The program fails to address the underlying problems that brought the families here in the first place, said Arnold S. Cohen, the president and chief executive of the Partnership for the Homeless, an advocacy group in New York.

“The city is engaged in cosmetics,” Mr. Cohen said. “What we’re doing is passing the problem of homelessness to another city. We’re taking people from a shelter bed here to the living room couch of another family. Essentially, this family is still homeless.”

Thora Wrote:"City Aids Homeless With One-Way Tickets Home"
New York City, that is. (wonder if that was offered when I left NYC...)

As New Yorkers, we're not specifically targetting any geographic or ethnic group with this GTFO program the way this new Japanese law is. Furthermore those persons are not deliberately inflicted with obstacles to coming back to NYC. If Bloomberg even attempted to even propose such a plan that targetted a group of unemployed persons based on ethnicity (the established and known increasing numbers of English illiterate, unemployed Mexican migrant workers), language, "blood", etc. his ass would thrown out of City Hall before the stock market closed that day.

Compare that with the Governor of Japan's Metropolis Tokyo, the ignorant douchebag Shintarō Ishihara 石原 慎太郎:

On February 20, 2006, Ishihara said: "Roppongi is now virtually a foreign neighborhood. Africans — I don't mean African-Americans — who don't speak English are there doing who knows what. This is leading to new forms of crime such as car theft. We should be letting in people who are intelligent."

from http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...kKn5G.sOhk

Ishihara said in a 2001 interview with women's magazine Shukan Josei that he believed "old women who live after they have lost their reproductive function are useless and are committing a sin," adding that he "couldn't say this as a politician." He was criticized in the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly for these comments, but responded that the criticism was driven by "tyrant" "old women."

from http://www.jclu.org/katsudou/seimei_iken...peech.html

How the people of Tokyo keep voting this moron into office is as upsetting as the reason why Palin is still so beloved by right-wingers in the U.S.

Thora Wrote:Hopefully this knowledge will have some positive influence on employment and immigration policy reform as well as the treatment of 3rd generation Korean-Japanese (who by comparison might start to seem more Japanese...) [headshake]

I should like to know what you meant by this.

Thora Wrote:There's certianly room for improvement in Japanese policy, but it's worth noting that the majority of the Brazilian workers were not looking to attain Japanese citizenship or reside permanently in Japan. According to what I've read, most intended to earn money then return to Brazil.

Yes, indeed most migrant workers do have similar goals.

Thora Wrote:Regarding Iranians in Japan: "In 1992, prompted by worsening economic conditions, Japan terminated the visa-free agreement with Iran, and began serious efforts to deport illegal overstayers." (Went from about 33,000 to 6,000.)

This is awful, but more understandable. In a country with Jus Sanguinis Nationality Laws, targetting the Brazilian Nisei is like harming one's own countrymen. Now with what Jarvik posted about those workers having no opportunities in Japan because of language or other issues, that's perfectly reasonable.

If truly the program is meant to help the Nisei above other gaijin who have similar handicaps, then it's less abhorrent. But, as many right wingers in the Japanese Diet undoubtedly believe, viz. that this program will get rid of the "tainted", "corrupted", "impure", to preserve and protect the "純粋な日本人 ", then the program becomes extremely reprehensible.

Productive end results of course outweigh motivating ideology, but motivating ideology can provide revealing information about many of the supporting politicians in the 国会, as well as possible future developments.

kazelee Wrote:[ With the countries reputation (whether true or false), things like this don't help.

I truly agree on this one. But you see my point now too. It's not GTFO money. It's voluntary. There are jobless people who can't afford the air tickets and speak Portuguese a lot better than Japanese, if they speak Japanese at all. They have been living on unemployment benefit and that will expire soon.

What will you do?

The fact it got the heat itself proves that it wasn't a good idea in terms of Japan's reputation even if there are people who would benefit from this program, but criticizing it without knowing all these backgrounds doesn't help critics' country's reputation in Japan ether. It would be taken as racism. It's like "See these western people? they are always like that. They don't even care to know the background and paint Japan as racist country. They do that because we are Asian and not Westerner."

You know, I'm always in a lose-lose situation. I'm often perceived as a pro-Japan sexist-racist when I'm talking in English, and as a pro-western sexist-racist when I'm talking in Japanese. I think the truths is, you guys, Japanese and westerner, just don't know each other.

The bottom line is simple:

If a Japanese Diet member voted for this bill mainly because they care about and support the Nisei, native-born Japanese, other Japanese citizens, and the Japanese nation as a whole, then God Bless them, if only more politicians were so humanistic.

If a Japanese Diet member voted for this bill mainly because he thinks Nisei aren't as worthy as human beings or are lesser than native-born Japanese people and that everyone would be better off if they left, then they can go ***** themselves with some rusty barbed wire. God knows they deserve worse.

To quote Boondock St. Murphy: "There are varying degrees of evil, we urge you lesser forms of filth not to push the bounds and cross over, into true corruption, into our domain."

TrueBlue, you seem awfully worked up about this topic...and a wee bit confused about some of the issues. Not typically a great combination. Maybe time for a nice cup of tea?

I must be missing some info. Can anyone answer these questions for me?

1. Is Japan offering the money to Nikei who are citizens as well?
2. Are permanent residents entitled to the same public assistance as citizens?
3. Have there been any complaints that Nike citizens or permanent residents are being discriminated against if they apply for that assistance? (other than job fairs which require language ability).
4. Temp workers are laid off first. But are there any claims that Nikei citizens or permanent residents are being laid off before Japanese of equal status and rank?

thx

If I hear someone saying something like "Aryan race" "Pure blood" etc, regardless of the context, I'd just steer away from them. I've read about 2000 to 3000 Japanese books so I know what 天孫民族 means, but this was the first time I ever saw someone actually using it. It's just too scary.

masaman Wrote:What will you do?

Not pay people to leave. Especially not a specific ethnic group.

masaman Wrote:The fact it got the heat itself proves that it wasn't a good idea in terms of Japan's reputation even if there are people who would benefit from this program, but criticizing it without knowing all these backgrounds doesn't help critics' country's reputation in Japan ether. It would be taken as racism. It's like "See these western people? they are always like that. They don't even care to know the background and paint Japan as racist country. They do that because we are Asian and not Westerner."

It's being perceived as racist by those living in Japan, not just the west. If one person makes a mistake and thinks you are racist, perhaps it's really is a mistake, but when it happens time and again and you continue to take action that only seem to support the notion, it becomes harder and harder to prove the idea false. Even if you are not what people assume you to be, without taking a step in a different direction you have no hope of changing their minds.

Quote:You know, I'm always in a lose-lose situation. I'm often perceived as a pro-Japan sexist-racist when I'm talking in English, and as a pro-western sexist-racist when I'm talking in Japanese.

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. You are in this situation because you constantly imagine being in this situation. You tell yourself "this is how it's going to be no matter what I do." Change the way you think to yourself and you'll change peoples' perception of you.

masaman Wrote:I think the truths is, you guys, Japanese and westerner, just don't know each other.

Westerners and Japanese know each other no better than two guys living next door in the same country. Opinions and ideals vary between individuals, not lines on a map.

masaman Wrote:If I hear someone saying something like "Aryan race" "Pure blood" etc, regardless of the context, I'd just steer away from them. I've read about 2000 to 3000 Japanese books so I know what 天孫民族 means, but this was the first time I ever saw someone actually using it. It's just too scary.

Imagine how scary it is not knowing whether this is a belief held members of the government in the country which you reside.

kazelee Wrote:

masaman Wrote:What will you do?

Not pay people to leave. Especially not a specific ethnic group.

And wait for them to be homeless with their work visa expired? So police can catch them, put them in the jail and send them back to Brazil? Like how US do to Mexican people?

See, Japanese get criticized if they don't show any consideration to 2世, like "Hey they have the heritage in Japan. Isn't that a little cold?", and they get criticized if they treat them specially, "Hey that's racism!".

What should they do then? I'm not asking what they should NOT do. What SHOULD they, and CAN they do?

kazelee Wrote:Westerners and Japanese know each other no better than two guys living next door in the same country.

Oh, hell no. 99% of Japanese People don't know western culture as much as I do, and I don't think I know western culture as much as you do.

kazelee Wrote:Imagine how scary it is not knowing whether this is a belief held members of the government in the country which you reside.

You know, the world is not black and white. Most people are not completely racism free. Myself included. But most people are not completely racist ether. In 10 years living in the states, I have never met anybody who I would call a racist, even though I don't feel I'm treated completely equally here. I may be a little thick, but I'd rather be thick than go to KKK site or Aryan Alliance site and talk to them and criticize how US "right wings" are.

Thora Wrote:TrueBlue, you seem awfully worked up about this topic...and a wee bit confused about some of the issues. Not typically a great combination. Maybe time for a nice cup of tea?

I already gave you my bottom line. I don't tolerate racist idiocy from anyone I personally associate with. There's nothing to be confused about, there's at least two kinds of Diet members who voted for this bill, read my post again. Or don't. \care

Thora Wrote:I must be missing some info. Can anyone answer these questions for me?

1. Is Japan offering the money to Nikei who are citizens as well?

According to this bill no, those people might have the means to defend themselves, unlike illiterate migrant workers.

Thora Wrote:2. Are permanent residents entitled to the same public assistance as citizens?

Not sure what you mean there, if people are in starving and in need of work, they
should get work or some other help. Of course the Japanese government can reserve the best for its citizens. That's not the same as treating non-citizens with anything less than 100% humanism and consideration.

Thora Wrote:3. Have there been any complaints that Nike citizens or permanent residents are being discriminated against if they apply for that assistance? (other than job fairs which require language ability).

If they agree to the GTFO money? I'd imagine no. If it's any other kind of assistance in the form of money or tax breaks? What kind of ***** idiot would say no? Of course they're discriminated against. Systematic racism is a characteristic of all industrialized nations.

Thora Wrote:4. Temp workers are laid off first. But are there any claims that Nikei citizens or permanent residents are being laid off before Japanese of equal status and rank?

The government wants them to leave. Once the economy recovers and the Japanese citizens recover their jobs, then the Nisei can come back for the shit jobs. As long as the draft animals do draft animal work and don't "take" the jobs of native-born Japanese, the right-wingers in the Diet will be at least partially satiated.

You don't have to agree with what I'm writing. Just know that there's definite racism at work here. It's not every politician or every Japanese citizen, but it's there, and it is an influence.

BTW, Germany has a similar situation with the "Russian Germans", the German minority groups in Russia that "came back" to Germany during the 90s. A large part of this group spoke either basic German or no German at all. I several friends among them and they told me similar things to the nisei in Japan/Brazil. Back in Russia they were discriminated against because they were considered Germans, in Germany they`re discriminated against because they`re considered Russians. Most of my "Russian" friends consider themselves Russians, but they came to Germany because of better job prospects. An above-average percentage of this group is unemployed because they lack the necessary language skills and education to find employment. You can feel the resentment against Germany and the Germans because their hopes and dreams didn`t come true.

As to the idea that most of them are criminal, I wouldn`t necessarily accept that. The thing is that I`ve also "Russian Germans" that speak fluent German. Most of them have German names, so they`re conceived as Germans by their environment. Some don`t mention that they have a Russian background because of the negative associations people have.

Since 1997 Germany requires people to take a German language test to "prove" that they`re Germans.

Most countries have language/culture/history tests to gain citizenship, if that's what you mean.

In Canada you have to be able to sing the national anthem in both English and French to gain citizenship.

masaman Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:

masaman Wrote:What will you do?

Not pay people to leave. Especially not a specific ethnic group.

And wait for them to be homeless with their work visa expired? So police can catch them, put them in the jail and send them back to Brazil? Like how US do to Mexican people?

There are not all there on temporary visas.

masaman Wrote:See, Japanese get criticized if they don't show any consideration to 2世, like "Hey they have the heritage in Japan. Isn't that a little cold?", and they get criticized if they treat them specially, "Hey that's racism!".

That's because in either fashion the group's being singled out.

masaman Wrote:What should they do then? I'm not asking what they should NOT do. What SHOULD they, and CAN they do?

It would be better to do nothing, or find better ways to invest the money. It was not a smart decision. Asking me what they should have done won't change that.

Quote:

kazelee Wrote:Westerners and Japanese know each other no better than two guys living next door in the same country.

Oh, hell no. 99% of Japanese People don't know western culture as much as I do, and I don't think I know western culture as much as you do.

Knowing about a culture and knowing your neighbor are very different. I know about Thai culture. Doesn't mean I automatically understand each and every Thai individual I meet. I live in American, doesn't mean I know my next door neighbor any better than I know people I exchange emails with overseas.

But here's the kicker. If one fits the definition of a word that people all around the world agree on, it's not the world that's wrong.

Quote:

kazelee Wrote:Imagine how scary it is not knowing whether this is a belief held members of the government in the country which you reside.

You know, the world is not black and white.

What does the color of the world have to do with trusting one's government?

Quote:Most people are not completely racism free. Myself included. But most people are not completely racist ether. In 10 years living in the states, I have never met anybody who I would call a racist, even though I don't feel I'm treated completely equally here.

My sympathies. Out of curiosity, why is it you feel you are not treated completely equally?

Quote:I may be a little thick, but I'd rather be thick than go to KKK site or Aryan Alliance site and talk to them and criticize how US "right wings" are.

Is that what you equate this thread with?

BTW KKK and Aryan Alliance are not right wing. They are extremists. I've met right wingers. I've had right wing friends. These people (KKK) are ignorance embodied. And I believe they'd be more accurately classified as libertarians.

But these people are German, it`s just that their ancestors emigrated to Russia and unlike the Germans in Romania they adopted to Russia and lost their culture and language.

In the US, if you are under work visa(H1B) status and lose the job, you will be required to find a new job within 30 days and file for a new work visa, which is pretty much impossible. You will not be entitled to unemployment benefits regardless of how much tax you have payed. You will not be covered by a health insurance. And if you can't afford the air ticket, you will be ether homeless or an illegal immigrant. And then if the immigration finds it out, you will be handcuffed, strip searched, put in a jail and deported. You will be banned from entering US for 10 years for any reason. It's pretty much GTFO never comeback PERIOD. By the way, getting the citizenship sometimes takes almost 15 years.

On the other hand, 2世 in Japan with a work visa can stay as long as the visa is valid even if they are laid off, and work for any job they find. They are covered by the government provided health insurance, and entitled to unemployment benefits, and an additional financial support (生活保護). Plus, if you want to go back but don't have the money, you get an OPTION of getting $3000 + $2000 per a family member, that's $11,000 for a family of 5, if you agree to a 3 year ban from entering with "the same immigration status"=work visa. And getting the citizenship takes mere 3 years.

If someone believes Japan is a racist country, they are entitled to their view, but I would personally take the later treatment over the former any day.

And if you think "singling out one ethnic group" is bad, welcome to the bitter immigrant's world. The US immigration office is deliberately slowing the processing of visa applications of some nationalities that they don't welcome.

ropsta Wrote:I've met right wingers. I've had right wing friends. These people (KKK) are ignorance embodied. And I believe they'd be more accurately classified as libertarians.

Really, right wingers who believe in superiority of 天孫民族？
Interesting.

Anyway, did you read the links I posted? didn't they state other measures they are taking? again, it's not the ONLY thing they are doing and it's just one measures out of bunch of actions they are taking on 2世 unemployment problem. You can't come up with a better idea, so I don't think it's fare to criticize it even if it is a half assed measure.

watashimo Wrote:But these people are German, it`s just that their ancestors emigrated to Russia and unlike the Germans in Romania they adopted to Russia and lost their culture and language.

It sounds to me like they are Russians of German descent. It makes sense that there are other requirements that must be fulfilled in order for them to gain German citizenship.

ropsta Wrote:There are not all there on temporary visas.

Yes they are. Visas are by definition temporary. They have a special visa not permanent residency, unless they earned it the way all other foreigners do.

masaman Wrote:

ropsta Wrote:I've met right wingers. I've had right wing friends. These people (KKK) are ignorance embodied. And I believe they'd be more accurately classified as libertarians.

Really, right wingers who believe in superiority of 天孫民族？
Interesting.

To clarify: right wingers are cool. The extremists (more libertarian-esque) are not.

masaman Wrote:Anyway, did you read the links I posted? didn't they state other measures they are taking? again, it's not the ONLY thing they are doing and it's just one measures out of bunch of actions they are taking on 2世 unemployment problem. You can't come up with a better idea, so I don't think it's fare to criticize it even if it is a half assed measure.

Never said it was the only solution. Just a dumb one.

Really. I don't have all the financial and statistical data they have, however, this is not an alternative I'd have considered even if I had all that knowledge. Also, All criticism of government is fair criticism. It's like saying you can't criticize the American government for entering Iraq with no strategy for exit. It was a dumb decision, much like this one.

This not an appropriate solution to any problem as it's not solving anything. It's like taking out a loan to pay for a loan on only has a certain stigma only target ethnic groups can bring.

Exporting poverty within specific groups is nonsensical.

Here's a strategy, if you feel it's necessary to provide one: end the program and issue a formal apology to those who felt it was out of ill will.

J7 Wrote:Yes they are. Visas are by definition temporary. They have a special visa, not permanent residency unless they earned it the way all other foreigners do.

Oh. That's some good info to know. Aren't they offering the program to those residents as well?