Refer to Title.

EDIT:According to this definition of fluency;

NATIVE LEVEL FLUENCY- can do everything in Japanese/Chinese that you can do in your main/native tongue.

A better question would be how many hours did you study.

In before 10 page argument on the definition of "fluency"!

Burritolingus Wrote:In before 10 page argument on the definition of "fluency"!

I will edit in. NATIVE LEVEL FLUENCY, can do everything in your Japanese/Chinese as you can in your main tongue.

I consider myself fluent, although still pretty far from what I consider to be "enough"... [for example, I still can't watch the news and understand 100%... maybe something around 70-80%, most of the time...]


It took me 4 years in college and 2 years living in Japan...

There's still a lot of work to do...


PS: As you guys probably can see, English is not my native language too...

[EDIT]
By the way, in my opinion, being fluent doesn't mean "being able to do in a foreign language 'everything' you do in your native one". You can study your ass off and become the world's most fluent gaijin in japanese, but your mother tongue will always be something special, in a totally different level.

You might get better replies if you let the person that says they are fluent give their reasons for that statement. That in itself can be insightful in addition to their methods and time line involved.

Very very few people would be fluent by your definition Yonosa. I consider myself fluent, but there is stuff I can't do in Japanese that I can do in English.

For example I can understand scottish with a pretty strong accent. I can understand very colloquial southern American English, even though I am Australian. I can understand ye-olde English and leet speak. I know a crap load of English that I will never say and might never encounter again. For example the idiom "kick the bucket" or the word indubitably (sherlock holmes says this). I can understand broken English very well.

I am pretty good with Japanese dialects, but I wouldn't know anywhere near as much as a native Japanese person. There are many unused idioms and words that I don't know. I struggle with broken Japanese. Not that I can't learn, but it is a waste of time.

Not saying I am that good, there is a whole lot of stuff that is common that I don't know, however I can function in almost any situation in Japanese that I can in English. I sometimes chat with Japanese people on Japanese websites and they think I am Japanese.

So, I think you need to revise your definition of fluent, or like Nukemarine let the posters decide, otherwise you won't get any responses..

orikosan Wrote:I consider myself fluent, although still pretty far from what I consider to be "enough"... [for example, I still can't watch the news and understand 100%... maybe something around 70-80%, most of the time...]


It took me 4 years in college and 2 years living in Japan...

There's still a lot of work to do...


PS: As you guys probably can see, English is not my native language too...

[EDIT]
By the way, in my opinion, being fluent doesn't mean "being able to do in a foreign language 'everything' you do in your native one". You can study your ass off and become the world's most fluent gaijin in japanese, but your mother tongue will always be something special, in a totally different level.

I disagree, my mother tongue was Portuguese, I barely remember any of it, I can do way more in english than I ever did in Portuguese, therefore I appreciated it more. Maybe you are talking about your own situation huh? Because maybe in your situation your "mother tongue" was special to you. Don't assume it is that way for everyone, what is the significance of portuguese to me? I was born there so therefore that was the language I spoke when I was a child, nothing special about it from my style of thought on the subject. After all it just happens to be that you speak your native tongue because the people you grew up around did so, take that as special if you want, but don't imply that others hold the same view. Maybe those who have only spoke on language until reaching somewhere near the 20s would feel that way? I don't know, that wasn't my situation, to me I see language as a communication tool(maybe more like each language is a sort of platform that you can communicate from, that is I think a more colorful way to think about it), might sound cold(but it really isn't since communication tools are used for humor and to show love, etc.) but from my experience I never had a special feeling from Language in general.

thermal Wrote:I am pretty good with Japanese dialects, but I wouldn't know anywhere near as much as a native Japanese person.

I doubt most Tokyoites speak fluent Tohoku dialect. In fact I had people tell me they don't understand anything when people from northern Japan or Kyushu are talking in dialect. So don't worry, if you get Kansai dialect there's probably no more dialect you need to be considered "fluent".

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

thermal Wrote:I am pretty good with Japanese dialects, but I wouldn't know anywhere near as much as a native Japanese person.

I doubt most Tokyoites speak fluent Tohoku dialect. In fact I had people tell me they don't understand anything when people from northern Japan or Kyushu are talking in dialect. So don't worry, if you get Kansai dialect there's probably no more dialect you need to be considered "fluent".

My girlfriend is from Hokkaido, according to her from Tokyo to the north everyone can speak standard japanese.

Note: While I was typing this... the Mandarin version of the NUMA NUMA song just came on CTV... haha, that's my favorite version maybe(anyone heard the Japanese version? I don't favor it much.)

edit: here it is:

haha, you know you love it.

To me, fluent = native (with maybe a bit of an accent), so no.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear at a point.

When I say "the mother tongue will always be special", I don't mean "afectively". I merely meant it will always be in a special "LEVEL". In other words, always will be much better, and more "natural", rather than the languages we learn by memorizing rules and by using our own mother language to "think" them, to understand how they work.


But that's only a general rule. When we talk about languages, it is impossible to apply to every single case a single rule with no observations, as any other humam phenomenon.

In my opinion, what happens in your case is: your mother tongue was changed. Which is perfectly possible and common, specialy among kids. And if I'm right, now that English became your native language and you are an adult, no other language will reach the same level your English is. It's in a "special level".

orikosan Wrote:Sorry, I didn't make myself clear at a point.

When I say "the mother tongue will always be special", I don't mean "afectively". I merely meant it will always be in a special "LEVEL". In other words, always will be much better, and more "natural", rather than the languages we learn by memorizing rules and by using our own mother language to "think" them, to understand how they work.


But that's only a general rule. When we talk about languages, it is impossible to apply to every single case a single rule with no observations, as any other humam phenomenon.

In my opinion, what happens in your case is: your mother tongue was changed. Which is perfectly possible and common, specialy among kids. And if I'm right, now that English became your native language and you are an adult, no other language will reach the same level your English is. It's in a "special level".

Again I disagree, I am not learning any rules in my studies of japanese and chinese, and I am only learning a very limited amount of the words with english definitions. I think you know so many rules because you took so many classes?

"In my opinion, what happens in your case is: your mother tongue was changed. Which is perfectly possible and common, specialy among kids. And if I'm right, now that English became your native language and you are an adult, no other language will reach the same level your English is. It's in a "special level"."

I disagree, also, I already see that it is absolutely possible to reach this level in not only japanese but also(or the other way around) chinese. The thing is maintaining that "SPECIAL LEVEL" in any language will make the others suffer, I simply have a head-start in English I feel. But if you are implying that even if I lived in China or Japan for ten years I wouldn't reach their native level fluency, then I feel almost as if you are implying that I am an imbecile? I've only been here 11 years and I speak english as well as the next guy... so I assume the same thing would happen in China or Japan, I am thinking.

But if you are implying that even if I lived in China or Japan for ten years I wouldn't reach their native level fluency, then I feel almost as if you are implying that I am an imbecile...


People are mixing concepts...

Native language is the one on which your cognitive system was established. You can't have two native languages after becoming an adult simply because you will be necessarily using your FIRST language to learn the SECOND one, conciencessly or not.

That explains why people have problems trying to do complex math using a language other than their native one.


You can be extremely fluent in japanese, chinese, aramaic, urdu... by they will be never your NATIVE language. And it doesn't make you an imbecile.

Yonosa Wrote:

orikosan Wrote:I consider myself fluent, although still pretty far from what I consider to be "enough"... [for example, I still can't watch the news and understand 100%... maybe something around 70-80%, most of the time...]


It took me 4 years in college and 2 years living in Japan...

There's still a lot of work to do...


PS: As you guys probably can see, English is not my native language too...

[EDIT]
By the way, in my opinion, being fluent doesn't mean "being able to do in a foreign language 'everything' you do in your native one". You can study your ass off and become the world's most fluent gaijin in japanese, but your mother tongue will always be something special, in a totally different level.

I disagree, my mother tongue was Portuguese, I barely remember any of it, I can do way more in english than I ever did in Portuguese, therefore I appreciated it more. Maybe you are talking about your own situation huh? Because maybe in your situation your "mother tongue" was special to you. Don't assume it is that way for everyone, what is the significance of portuguese to me? I was born there so therefore that was the language I spoke when I was a child, nothing special about it from my style of thought on the subject. After all it just happens to be that you speak your native tongue because the people you grew up around did so, take that as special if you want, but don't imply that others hold the same view. Maybe those who have only spoke on language until reaching somewhere near the 20s would feel that way? I don't know, that wasn't my situation, to me I see language as a communication tool(maybe more like each language is a sort of platform that you can communicate from, that is I think a more colorful way to think about it), might sound cold(but it really isn't since communication tools are used for humor and to show love, etc.) but from my experience I never had a special feeling from Language in general.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's an age thing. If you learn a new language when young or teens and live in that language through to adulthood you will know that language better than your L1 - because you have matured in L2 and not in L1. It's more about suckage at your mother tongue than anything else.

If you have reached maturity in L1 it is a whole other thing for L2 to surpass your L1.

To me, fluent = university level graduate native, so far from no.

vosmiura Wrote:Yeah I'm pretty sure it's an age thing. If you learn a new language when young or teens and live in that language through to adulthood you will know that language better than your L1 - because you have matured in L2 and not in L1. It's more about suckage at L2 than anything else.

If you have reached maturity in L1 it is a whole other thing for L2 to surpass your L1.

Exactly. I totally agree with you.

liosama Wrote:To me, fluent = university level graduate native, so far from no.

In which case, the vast majority of people on this planet wouldn't be considered fluent even in their native language. And god help us folk in the southern states of the USA.

orikosan Wrote:Sorry, I didn't make myself clear at a point.

The meaning was perfectly clear. It's also difficult to imagine anyone finding reason to disagree. (Perhaps Yonoso simply misunderstood - English is not his first language).

Yonosa Wrote:

orikosan Wrote:PS: As you guys probably can see, English is not my native language too...

[EDIT]
You can study your ass off and become the world's most fluent gaijin in japanese, but your mother tongue will always be something special, in a totally different level.

snip
Maybe those who have only spoke on language until reaching somewhere near the 20s would feel that way?

Just wondering what other people's view on this is.

Most of the people I know who can speak multiple languages well either grew up bi-lingual, or learned their second language while a teenager.
I don't mean that it's impossible to learn a second language to fluency as an adult, but I certainly think it's harder.


I'm 35. I grew up in NZ and Australia, and I basically only spoke English till I was 30+ years old. For the last few years I've been learning Japanese, and while I'm definitely making progress, I find I am almost always thinking in English. I'm around JLPT2 level in reading/kanji etc, but even simple conversational Japanese doesn't really feel natural.

It's only recently that I have experienced actually thinking in Japanese for a prolonged time (a couple of hours). Even then, when trying to speak I would often struggle to either express my ideas or find the correct word, in which case I could feel myself drifting back to thinking in English.

Will I ever stop thinking primarily in English? I don't think so.
Will I ever be able to truly think in Japanese? I'm not sure.

I guess it comes down to immersion - I'm always switching back to English due to my environment (work, girlfriend), which makes it next to impossible to sustain Japanese long enough to make it feel natural.

As a side note, sometimes it's easy to read about how fast other people are learning Japanese and feel a bit depressed. But sometimes they have some advantages that aren't immediately clear.
For example, did you know Katzumoto grew up in Kenya and spoke Swahili? And that he studied some Chinese before starting Japanese? Not to belittle his achievements or his method, but I think that put him a few steps ahead of someone starting out who only speaks English.

Thora Wrote:

orikosan Wrote:Sorry, I didn't make myself clear at a point.

The meaning was perfectly clear. It's also difficult to imagine anyone finding reason to disagree. (Perhaps Yonoso simply misunderstood - English is not his first language).

Thanks for the support.

Some people find the most "amazing" reasons to disagree, when they just don't like some other person's opinion...

vosmiura Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:

orikosan Wrote:I consider myself fluent, although still pretty far from what I consider to be "enough"... [for example, I still can't watch the news and understand 100%... maybe something around 70-80%, most of the time...]


It took me 4 years in college and 2 years living in Japan...

There's still a lot of work to do...


PS: As you guys probably can see, English is not my native language too...

[EDIT]
By the way, in my opinion, being fluent doesn't mean "being able to do in a foreign language 'everything' you do in your native one". You can study your ass off and become the world's most fluent gaijin in japanese, but your mother tongue will always be something special, in a totally different level.

I disagree, my mother tongue was Portuguese, I barely remember any of it, I can do way more in english than I ever did in Portuguese, therefore I appreciated it more. Maybe you are talking about your own situation huh? Because maybe in your situation your "mother tongue" was special to you. Don't assume it is that way for everyone, what is the significance of portuguese to me? I was born there so therefore that was the language I spoke when I was a child, nothing special about it from my style of thought on the subject. After all it just happens to be that you speak your native tongue because the people you grew up around did so, take that as special if you want, but don't imply that others hold the same view. Maybe those who have only spoke on language until reaching somewhere near the 20s would feel that way? I don't know, that wasn't my situation, to me I see language as a communication tool(maybe more like each language is a sort of platform that you can communicate from, that is I think a more colorful way to think about it), might sound cold(but it really isn't since communication tools are used for humor and to show love, etc.) but from my experience I never had a special feeling from Language in general.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's an age thing. If you learn a new language when young or teens and live in that language through to adulthood you will know that language better than your L1 - because you have matured in L2 and not in L1. It's more about suckage at your mother tongue than anything else.

If you have reached maturity in L1 it is a whole other thing for L2 to surpass your L1.

Why? research ? references? Explain better and I might listen, don't think I will though, even if my english and japanese and chinese are great and native level
but my English is just a little bit better than the rest, than I could care less. I just want native university level ability in the 3 languages.

avparker

Will I ever stop thinking primarily in English? I don't think so.
Will I ever be able to truly think in Japanese? I'm not sure.


If you work hard, for sure you can become able to think in Japanese.

But once you are an adult, there are some cognitive areas that will never be well "covered" by the japanese language. For example, the brain areas related to logic-mathematic cogniton and poetic language usage.

orikosan Wrote:But if you are implying that even if I lived in China or Japan for ten years I wouldn't reach their native level fluency, then I feel almost as if you are implying that I am an imbecile...


People are mixing concepts...

Native language is the one on which your cognitive system was established. You can't have two native languages after becoming an adult simply because you will be necessarily using your FIRST language to learn the SECOND one, conciencessly or not.

That explains why people have problems trying to do complex math using a language other than their native one.


You can be extremely fluent in japanese, chinese, aramaic, urdu... by they will be never your NATIVE language. And it doesn't make you an imbecile.

But I split my languages halfway through my cognitive development so I dont understand how this applies? I consciously changed my thinking into english at first , I remember doing that as I was learning.

orikosan Wrote:avparker

Will I ever stop thinking primarily in English? I don't think so.
Will I ever be able to truly think in Japanese? I'm not sure.


If you work hard, for sure you can become able to think in Japanese.

But once you are an adult, there are some cognitive areas that will never be well "covered" by the japanese language. For example, the brain areas related to logic-mathematic cogniton and poetic language usage.

References...