ryuudou Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:how would you know he is not a native japanese speaker, you aren't one so it sounds like just conjecture for you to even speak on it.

Wow, Yonosa is even more arrogant than me (I salute you!). Let's face it, Yonosa is never gonna reach fluency, thats a fact, how ever much he wants/claims/dreams/wishes/says/rants it, he has this image how it gonna be (ideally), but that's all it's ever gonna be: AN IMAGE, end of story. NEXT!
*gleaming

If you're going to say things with absolutely no logic behind them then you might as well take your clothes off and stand on your head.

If anyone isn't going to become fluent it's YOU because of your, as you've made apparent, illogical reasoning which could, for as far as I know, transfer into other areas of your life.

Ryuu, we know we have the logical perspective on this, they keep coming up with illogical responses.

Let's say we quit together? We could free up a lot of our time, it doesn't matter that we explain the logic of our thinking to them, they refuse to see the lack thereof in theirs although I assume they do know of it, but won't admit it and lose their meaningless pride. So let's just be the ones to end the argument no?

Who are these "they"? I hope you're not including me in musashi's ad hominems.

Yonosa Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:Since when does Native = Good? There's millions of "natives" who only speak on an average level.

It's about your ability to feel a language, not your ability to list complex words or write hard kanji from memory. A first language and a second language will always be separate. I might get a better score than the average American on the English SAT, who knows? But I wouldn't use that as a basis to claim I'm more fluent than the average American, that's preposterous.

Ｉt does in fact mean that you understand more english than the average American,


But in you dictionary; FLuency= A magical place that can only be attained by a child who grows up somewhere, but they can't be too old and they have to mature at least a certain amount in that language because then the magical place can be attained. No adults allowed!

You have a superficial view of language. Being native level is not about the most fancy words that you know. Sometimes foreigners sound non-native because they speak too fancy, and unnatural.

Me and my mother started learning English at the same time - about 20 years ago. We both lived using English the whole time. She did a masters degree at an English university (I have just a regular bachelor's) and she reads a lot of books - I mean I am not kidding when I say she has read 100s of times more books in English than I have. She knows a lot more words than I do. Unfortunately, it is still easy to tell English is her 2nd language.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:Dude, overtime if you delve into massive amounts of native sources, the time could be made up. I mean certainly there are people with considered native fluency who dropped out of High School and have only read 5 books in their whole lives, they're natively fluent "they grew up there" and that's the key right??

Well anyways a foreigner could easily catch such a person, content amount wise.

It's a good point, but question is if it matters. Even a Japanese native who has only read 5 books in his life has used Japanese everyday since he learned to talk. He has understood Japanese even longer. He still thinks and communicates in Japanese each day, probably several hours a day. You can EASILY catch up to most Japanese when it comes to content read I believe, but is that enough? Again, it depends on your definition. I personally believe it's more "native-like" to speak completely fluently and natural in conversations than to be able to read a lot of hard classical Japanese books. I know several foreigners in Sweden who has read more Swedish books than me but still clearly show that they are foreigners when they are speaking. Not by making grammatical mistakes or by not understanding certain words, but simply from speaking in an unnatural way, a way no regular Swedish person would. Question is, hypothetically, would you consider someone who can't properly speak Japanese in an everyday situation BETTER at Japanese than a native, simply because he can read complex Japanese books when said native might have problems doing so?

Well perhaps if you could show me such a person that has read more classical Japanese than a Japanese person and can't speak grammatically, and in a normal way, than I would like to further look into this... It would be a huge feat to find such a person though, as I'm sure now that you think about it, you will realize.

Tobberoth Wrote:Who are these "they"? I hope you're not including me in musashi's ad hominems.

Tobberoth! I was on your side!
Nah it's summer and it's hot, let's just leave this and head for a drink. My treat everybody

Yonosa Wrote:Well perhaps if you could show me such a person that has read more classical Japanese than a Japanese person and can't speak grammatically, and in a normal way, than I would like to further look into this... It would be a huge feat to find such a person though, as I'm sure now that you think about it, you will realize.

Oh, maybe you didn't read my post properly. Search for "hypothetically" because I think you missed it.

Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:This applies to all languages and not just Japanese. Mere connotations don't matter; there is only one denotation. Without considering the illiterate, If you speak and write better than the average of a native country, and you aren't residing in an alternative reality; it is factual that you are fluent. Accent has no role in this (hi vosimura). Referencing crappy TV shows has no role in this (hi again, vosimura).

No one here has claimed you aren't fluent if you speak and write better than the average native. I am fluent in English, all I've said is that I'm not BETTER at English than a native.

What I'm talking about is the term I used from the start, native-like fluency. Not fluency. Fluency is, like I said, WAY too broad. And I would not consider one of native-like fluency if they use incorrect accents while speaking Japanese, or uses the wrong tones when speaking Chinese. A native wouldn't make those mistakes (in NORMAL cases, all people make mistakes from time to time).

Tobberoth... You are easily better than a native at english, at the very least in writing. Most natives are stupid... don't forget that. I am not trying to be rude, but most natives don't even know the works you use. Like the word "consider" I know natives who don't know that word. really .... I have a vivid memory of being asked what does consider mean...Sounds presposterous... but it really is true! I kid you not, I walked always from that conversation towards the end of it.

Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:This applies to all languages and not just Japanese. Mere connotations don't matter; there is only one denotation. Without considering the illiterate, If you speak and write better than the average of a native country, and you aren't residing in an alternative reality; it is factual that you are fluent. Accent has no role in this (hi vosimura). Referencing crappy TV shows has no role in this (hi again, vosimura).

Tobberoth Wrote:No one here has claimed you aren't fluent if you speak and write better than the average native.

Not directly. Take our friends vusimura and musashi for example.

Tobberoth Wrote:I am fluent in English, all I've said is that I'm not BETTER at English than a native.

You can't speak generally for entirely contextual things.

Tobberoth Wrote:What I'm talking about is the term I used from the start, native-like fluency. Not fluency. Fluency is, like I said, WAY too broad.

There is no native-like fluency because It's 200% contextual, while plain old fluency on the other hand, despite of it's numerous connotations, has a definite agreeable denotation. This means that people should stop attributing their lack of skill to nativity, which is only relevent to language by coincidence. I lived in a sound proof box for my entire life.

Yonosa Wrote:Tobberoth... You are easily better than a native at english, at the very least in writing. Most natives are stupid... don't forget that. I am not trying to be rude, but most natives don't even know the works you use. Like the word "consider" I know natives who don't know that word. really .... I have a vivid memory of being asked what does consider mean...Sounds presposterous... but it really is true! I kid you not, I walked always from that conversation towards the end of it.

No I'm not, not by my standards of what constitutes native-like fluency. I can correct the grammar of natives from time to time and I know some words most natives don't, but I can't speak English with the same flow and fluidity as an English person. I can state my opinions decently, this forum is proof of that, but if I actually sat down with a group of natives discussing things like this, it would be completely different, and not even close to how I would discuss the same thing in Swedish with Swedish buddies. I mean, having a huge vocabulary doesn't make you great at expressing yourself in another language.

"Ok, ok, ok, I get it, it's your theory, and that's cool, everybody's allowed to have one. We're cool, it's your theory, I get it."

Wow.... are you stupid? Are you fluent in english, perhaps you don't understand the usage, or you wouldn't have said something so ...unintelligent?...blatantly with no intent to add anything to the conversation that is already going no where. But you are not at native fluency so I'll give you a break, just this once ok?

ryuudou Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:No one here has claimed you aren't fluent if you speak and write better than the average native.

Not directly. Take our friends vusimura and musashi for example.

Well feel free to show otherwise

Yonosa Wrote:"Ok, ok, ok, I get it, it's your theory, and that's cool, everybody's allowed to have one. We're cool, it's your theory, I get it."

Wow.... are you stupid? Are you fluent in english, perhaps you don't understand the usage, or you wouldn't have said something so ...unintelligent?

I AM unintelligent and stupid, what can we do about it?

Yonosa Wrote:But you are not at native fluency so I'll give you a break, just this once ok?

You are most kind oh-fluent-one

Tobberoth Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:Well perhaps if you could show me such a person that has read more classical Japanese than a Japanese person and can't speak grammatically, and in a normal way, than I would like to further look into this... It would be a huge feat to find such a person though, as I'm sure now that you think about it, you will realize.

Oh, maybe you didn't read my post properly. Search for "hypothetically" because I think you missed it.

Here your buddy Vos, said it better than I could ever.
"Ok, ok, ok, I get it, it's your theory, and that's cool, everybody's allowed to have one. We're cool, it's your theory, I get it."

Yonosa Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:Well perhaps if you could show me such a person that has read more classical Japanese than a Japanese person and can't speak grammatically, and in a normal way, than I would like to further look into this... It would be a huge feat to find such a person though, as I'm sure now that you think about it, you will realize.

Oh, maybe you didn't read my post properly. Search for "hypothetically" because I think you missed it.

Here your buddy Vos, said it better than I could ever.
"Ok, ok, ok, I get it, it's your theory, and that's cool, everybody's allowed to have one. We're cool, it's your theory, I get it."

The problem is that you didn't understand at all why I put "hypothetically" in that sentence. Maybe a native would? Maybe not, who cares. Maybe a native person would have used a different way of expressing it? Could be.

The question was hypothetical because I want your opinion on what you find most important when it comes to native-like fluency. Reading hard books or having fluid conversations and properly stating your opinion quickly in an everyday matter? Whether people who read classical Japanese novels make grammatical mistakes or not isn't important, it's a hypothetical question. Not a theory.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:Tobberoth... You are easily better than a native at english, at the very least in writing. Most natives are stupid... don't forget that. I am not trying to be rude, but most natives don't even know the works you use. Like the word "consider" I know natives who don't know that word. really .... I have a vivid memory of being asked what does consider mean...Sounds presposterous... but it really is true! I kid you not, I walked always from that conversation towards the end of it.

No I'm not, not by my standards of what constitutes native-like fluency. I can correct the grammar of natives from time to time and I know some words most natives don't, but I can't speak English with the same flow and fluidity as an English person. I can state my opinions decently, this forum is proof of that, but if I actually sat down with a group of natives discussing things like this, it would be completely different, and not even close to how I would discuss the same thing in Swedish with Swedish buddies. I mean, having a huge vocabulary doesn't make you great at expressing yourself in another language.

Your writing is easily above native level, I live with natives everyday, I went to school with them and proofread and tutored them, lots of them are idiots, even if you have an accent. I guarantee you can probably explain your self better than the people from the Bad part of my town, who Even i have trouble understanding what theyre saying....
And I tutored these kids, it's not a matter of speaking style like I though it was... It is true inability to communicate outside of their subculture. This is when I quit a tutoring session early once because I was frustrated the student couldn't understand that he "has to **consider** the audience for his paper"! I got yelled at by the school for walking out on his poor ass, but dude I can only try and help so much, before it's like talking to a brick wall.

ryuudou Wrote:This applies to all languages and not just Japanese. Mere connotations don't matter; there is only one denotation. Without considering the illiterate, If you speak and write better than the average of a native country, and you aren't residing in an alternative reality; it is factual that you are fluent. Accent has no role in this (hi vosimura). Referencing crappy TV shows has no role in this (hi again, vosimura).

I was speaking about "native level". Accent certainly has a role in that. Yonosa was saying he would reach "native level".

Can we just make it clear now: Are we talking about just reaching fluency, or are we talking about reaching a native level?

Yonosa Wrote:Your writing is easily above native level, I live with natives everyday, I went to school with them and proofread and tutored them, lots of them are idiots, even if you have an accent. I guarantee you can probably explain your self better than the people from the Bad part of my town, who Even i have trouble understanding what theyre saying....
And I tutored these kids, it's not a matter of speaking style like I though it was... It is true inability to communicate outside of their subculture. This is when I quit a tutoring session early once because I was frustrated the student couldn't understand that he "has to **consider** the audience for his paper"! I got yelled at by the school for walking out on his poor ass, but dude I can only try and help so much, before it's like talking to a brick wall.

Well... why did you tutor them? Because they are idiots or did you work as a real teacher or something? Because, if they are actual idiots, that would kinda explain it. I mean, there are idiots in all languages, in all cultures. I'm not really in a position to make a claim since I've never lived or even BEEN to a country where English is the native language, but if someone doesn't understand what "consider" means, aren't they like.. in the bottom 0.1% of the population? It just... sounds insane to me, even my mother would understand what consider means and her English is horrible.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Oh, maybe you didn't read my post properly. Search for "hypothetically" because I think you missed it.

Here your buddy Vos, said it better than I could ever.
"Ok, ok, ok, I get it, it's your theory, and that's cool, everybody's allowed to have one. We're cool, it's your theory, I get it."

The problem is that you didn't understand at all why I put "hypothetically" in that sentence. Maybe a native would? Maybe not, who cares. Maybe a native person would have used a different way of expressing it? Could be.

The question was hypothetical because I want your opinion on what you find most important when it comes to native-like fluency. Reading hard books or having fluid conversations and properly stating your opinion quickly in an everyday matter? Whether people who read classical Japanese novels make grammatical mistakes or not isn't important, it's a hypothetical question. Not a theory.

This is my I quit post, but I will answer this as least.

I learned English through reading, that's how I expanded the vocab, and how I learned to talk fluently was by just by talking a lot, but the reading constantly showed up in speaking, and eventually I moved to more and more refined conversations, and to more difficult books. I read to my interest though, I never looked for harder books on purpose, I just found them more interesting. Therefore I attained native level fluency.

I have a brother and sister from brazil, who live with me as well, my brother has been here longer than me, his english is poor, he never liked reading, he still "doesn't see a point". My sister on the other hand is 23 and still reads junior adult novels, not because of inability, but because of interest...yuck...she recently read that book Twilight, I think there was a movie recently so she wanted to read the book, I looked at it once and I can see why her vocabulary seems to be at a standstill for the past 5 years.

vosmiura Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:This applies to all languages and not just Japanese. Mere connotations don't matter; there is only one denotation. Without considering the illiterate, If you speak and write better than the average of a native country, and you aren't residing in an alternative reality; it is factual that you are fluent. Accent has no role in this (hi vosimura). Referencing crappy TV shows has no role in this (hi again, vosimura).

I was speaking about "native level". Accent certainly has a role in this.

No. Language isn't an attribute of nativity. I lived in a sound proof box my entire life, and I have a friend who lived his entire life in a camp where only languages that are not the main of the respective country are allowed. Now your point is moot.

These examples aren't realistic but what they demonstrate is factual.

To everyone: Stop. Attributing. Your. Lack. Or. Abundance. Of. Language ability. To. Nativity.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:Your writing is easily above native level, I live with natives everyday, I went to school with them and proofread and tutored them, lots of them are idiots, even if you have an accent. I guarantee you can probably explain your self better than the people from the Bad part of my town, who Even i have trouble understanding what theyre saying....
And I tutored these kids, it's not a matter of speaking style like I though it was... It is true inability to communicate outside of their subculture. This is when I quit a tutoring session early once because I was frustrated the student couldn't understand that he "has to **consider** the audience for his paper"! I got yelled at by the school for walking out on his poor ass, but dude I can only try and help so much, before it's like talking to a brick wall.

Well... why did you tutor them? Because they are idiots or did you work as a real teacher or something? Because, if they are actual idiots, that would kinda explain it. I mean, there are idiots in all languages, in all cultures. I'm not really in a position to make a claim since I've never lived or even BEEN to a country where English is the native language, but if someone doesn't understand what "consider" means, aren't they like.. in the bottom 0.1% of the population? It just... sounds insane to me, even my mother would understand what consider means and her English is horrible.

Now we know what 'fluency' is according to Yonosa.
Thanks for that insight.

ryuudou Wrote:

vosmiura Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:This applies to all languages and not just Japanese. Mere connotations don't matter; there is only one denotation. Without considering the illiterate, If you speak and write better than the average of a native country, and you aren't residing in an alternative reality; it is factual that you are fluent. Accent has no role in this (hi vosimura). Referencing crappy TV shows has no role in this (hi again, vosimura).

I was speaking about "native level". Accent certainly has a role in this.

No. Language isn't an attribute of nativity. I lived in a sound proof box my entire life, and I have a friend who lived his entire life in a camp where only languages that are not the main of the respective country are allowed. Now your point is moot.

So you will honestly consider a foreigner in China who can't properly use the tones to be of native-like fluency because he can read and write better than a Chinese person? Because, if that's true, you have a REALLY odd idea of what fluency natives have. Well, regardless, even if YOU consider yourself native-like in your fluency, no Japanese person will agree if your accent is off. They may very well consider you fluent, but not like a native. And remember, accent in Japanese is more than simple pronunciation, it can often carry meaning, just like tones in Chinese.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:Your writing is easily above native level, I live with natives everyday, I went to school with them and proofread and tutored them, lots of them are idiots, even if you have an accent. I guarantee you can probably explain your self better than the people from the Bad part of my town, who Even i have trouble understanding what theyre saying....
And I tutored these kids, it's not a matter of speaking style like I though it was... It is true inability to communicate outside of their subculture. This is when I quit a tutoring session early once because I was frustrated the student couldn't understand that he "has to **consider** the audience for his paper"! I got yelled at by the school for walking out on his poor ass, but dude I can only try and help so much, before it's like talking to a brick wall.

Well... why did you tutor them? Because they are idiots or did you work as a real teacher or something? Because, if they are actual idiots, that would kinda explain it. I mean, there are idiots in all languages, in all cultures. I'm not really in a position to make a claim since I've never lived or even BEEN to a country where English is the native language, but if someone doesn't understand what "consider" means, aren't they like.. in the bottom 0.1% of the population? It just... sounds insane to me, even my mother would understand what consider means and her English is horrible.

I would consider that this individual is about average, his marks were on par in every subject except literature, I asked him about it several times. I tutored for an honors program at my school though, and I continued to tutor him the rest of the year and he eventually got with the program, thanks to my convincing him that he wasn't losing his personality in writing with "correct word usage", he eventually believed me, but you wouldn't believe that he dropped out of school the next year, needless to say he wasn't stupid, but his fluency in english was more of that in the english of the subculture than in standard american english.

Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:

vosmiura Wrote:I was speaking about "native level". Accent certainly has a role in this.

No. Language isn't an attribute of nativity. I lived in a sound proof box my entire life, and I have a friend who lived his entire life in a camp where only languages that are not the main of the respective country are allowed. Now your point is moot.

So you will honestly consider a foreigner in China who can't properly use the tones to be of native-like fluency because he can read and write better than a Chinese person? Because, if that's true, you have a REALLY odd idea of what fluency natives have. Well, regardless, even if YOU consider yourself native-like in your fluency, no Japanese person will agree if your accent is off. They may very well consider you fluent, but not like a native. And remember, accent in Japanese is more than simple pronunciation, it can often carry meaning, just like tones in Chinese.

Accent can be learned. It has nothing to do with nativity.

ryuudou Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:No. Language isn't an attribute of nativity. I lived in a sound proof box my entire life, and I have a friend who lived his entire life in a camp where only languages that are not the main of the respective country are allowed. Now your point is moot.

So you will honestly consider a foreigner in China who can't properly use the tones to be of native-like fluency because he can read and write better than a Chinese person? Because, if that's true, you have a REALLY odd idea of what fluency natives have. Well, regardless, even if YOU consider yourself native-like in your fluency, no Japanese person will agree if your accent is off. They may very well consider you fluent, but not like a native. And remember, accent in Japanese is more than simple pronunciation, it can often carry meaning, just like tones in Chinese.

Accent can be learned. It has nothing to do with nativity.

Obviously. That isn't the point. The point is that if your accent is off, you can hardly be considered fluent like a native. Because they're accent won't be off. And that's the point of the concept of native-like fluency. You have to be JUST as good as the average native, in ALL aspects of the language. And if your accent is off, you aren't.

Tobberoth Wrote:Obviously. That isn't the point. The point is that if your accent is off, you can hardly be considered fluent like a native. Because they're accent won't be off. And that's the point of the concept of native-like fluency. You have to be JUST as good as the average native, in ALL aspects of the language. And if your accent is off, you aren't.

True!

Neurologically, it should be possible to reach a native level of fluency (insofar as the language alone is concerned -- the cultural aspect that "native" implies would be trickier by far). Much of the conventional wisdom about second language acquisition was generated when we were unaware of just how plastic the brain is. There's been a lot of recent research that shows that as a late second language learner becomes more proficient, the way that language is processed and generated becomes more and more in line with what is seen from a first language. That is, there is a progression from widespread activation of the temporal lobe with many calls to declarative memory, to more focused activation of the Broca's area with calls to procedural memory.

Of course, now that I've written it down, it doesn't seem like this has that much to do with the topic at hand, but it's the kind of thing I find interesting. I'm a knowledge hobbyist.

Also, note that I'm simply using "native" here as a stand in for "works in the brain like a first language would". I find the term "native" itself to be a bit silly, though, since it has no intrinsic meaning with regards to fluency. A native child and a native college professor are both native, but the difference in the breadth and depth of knowledge and language ability is staggering.