Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Native-like fluency is like... well, Khazu's English maybe? It simply means you aren't a native but you've lived and used the language daily SOO much that your frame of reference is starting to get ex.

Since when does Native = Good? There's millions of "natives" who only speak on an average level.

It's about your ability to feel a language, not your ability to list complex words or write hard kanji from memory. A first language and a second language will always be separate. I might get a better score than the average American on the English SAT, who knows? But I wouldn't use that as a basis to claim I'm more fluent than the average American, that's preposterous.

Ｉt does in fact mean that you understand more english than the average American,


But in you dictionary; FLuency= A magical place that can only be attained by a child who grows up somewhere, but they can't be too old and they have to mature at least a certain amount in that language because then the magical place can be attained. No adults allowed!

Tobberoth Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Like everyone is saying, it's impossible to become native, but I do believe native-like fluency is attainable. It's definitely not Khazu though.

Native-like fluency is like... well, Khazu's English maybe? It simply means you aren't a native but you've lived and used the language daily SOO much that your frame of reference is starting to get extremely close to a native.

I don't have this fluency in English, but if I lived in the US or UK for 5 years, I would. It's not something you can reach by SRSing or even exposing yourself to the language though. It has more to do with culture. You HAVE to live your daily life like those natives.

HAHA, you are saying that Khazu's english is not native-level, haha that's just dumb. He has an accent because that's how people from Kenya speak english...wtf... never cease to amaze Tob, another great and entertaining post. Culture and language can be quite seperate as well, an english speaker from england is not going to tell me I am not fluent in ENGLISH ENGLISH, that'd be absurd, in the case of Japanese, it just happens to be a one nation language for the most part. Anyways I don't think any other nation's besides japan speak japanese on any noticeable level, so yeah it seems like Language and culture are intertwined in this case, but that is not always the case.

I actually said his English WAS native-level.

Wow, that's good, I was ready for you to say something that ridiculous though, but hey how would you know he is not a native japanese speaker, you aren't one so it sounds like just conjecture for you to even speak on it.

Yonosa Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:Since when does Native = Good? There's millions of "natives" who only speak on an average level.

It's about your ability to feel a language, not your ability to list complex words or write hard kanji from memory. A first language and a second language will always be separate. I might get a better score than the average American on the English SAT, who knows? But I wouldn't use that as a basis to claim I'm more fluent than the average American, that's preposterous.

Ｉt does in fact mean that you understand more english than the average American,


But in you dictionary; FLuency= A magical place that can only be attained by a child who grows up somewhere, but they can't be too old and they have to mature at least a certain amount in that language because then the magical place can be attained. No adults allowed!

No, it doesn't mean that. Just like passing JLPT1 doesn't mean you're fluent just because JLPT1 is called fluency level. I mean, I can learn 100 四字熟語 in a few days and claim I'm better at Japanese than Japanese people because they don't know 100 四字熟語 by heart. But face it, only an idiot would seriously think that. Being of native-like fluency is something completely different than learning hard words.

Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Native-like fluency is like... well, Khazu's English maybe? It simply means you aren't a native but you've lived and used the language daily SOO much that your frame of reference is starting to get ex.

Since when does Native = Good? There's millions of "natives" who only speak on an average level.

It's about your ability to feel a language, not your ability to list complex words or write hard kanji from memory. A first language and a second language will always be separate. I might get a better score than the average American on the English SAT, who knows? But I wouldn't use that as a basis to claim I'm more fluent than the average American, that's preposterous.

Feel a language? That's a glittering generality; much too vague. You make it clear that L1 is on another level than L2, and yet, you don't seem to know how to properly gauge fluency.

Yonosa Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Native-like fluency is like... well, Khazu's English maybe? It simply means you aren't a native but you've lived and used the language daily SOO much that your frame of reference is starting to get ex.

Since when does Native = Good? There's millions of "natives" who only speak on an average level.

The vast majority speak at an average level, most aspiring linguists here seem clueless to that though.

On a previous post some were even claiming that my english wasn't at a native level. Basing their presumptions on the few spelling mistakes that I happen to include in my posts out of laziness... and I'm not the only one.... But hey I'm not as native fluency so I should just shut up, like the idiot foreigner I am. Even though I'm not a foreigner anymore...and that I've been told I'm at least above idiot level by some untrustworthy folk....that's enough to make me believe!"( 　ﾟ,_ゝﾟ)ﾊﾞｶｼﾞｬﾈｰﾉ"

Exactly. People here seem to needlessly mystify things.

vosmiura Wrote:You have a lot to catch up, and since you're not a child anymore you probably won't get the chance to.

For example, getting native jokes is very hard like some joke that natives get because it's a pun on a phrase from a popular show from 10 years ago.

The ability to identify TV shows and reference their content has NOTHING to do with fluency. A person could fit your example and be 110% fluent in Japanese.

ryuudou Wrote:Feel a language? That's a glittering generality; much too vague. You make it clear that L1 is on another level than L2, and yet, you don't seem to know how to properly gauge fluency.

Well then Mr Expert, tell us how to guage fluency correctly then? If you will only accept your own terms, then by all means, describe.

Is anyone here familiar with Ishinosuke Uwano, a Japanese WW2 prisoner of war who was stranded in Russia and has been living in Ukraine for the past 60 years? Not surprisingly, when he was finally discovered a few years ago and returned to visit Japan, he had forgotten almost all of his native language and (surprise, surprise!) was fully fluent in Ukrainian. Because he no longer used Japanese in his communication over six decades, he had forgotten all but the most common words.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo...707265.ece

Admittedly, none of these articles seem to go into great detail about his Ukrainian prowess, but considering the man lived in that country for sixty years, would it really be a stretch to assume that his second language had reached native level?

But really, what is native level fluen- wait, NO, don't anyone answer that. Seriously, it's a waste of time to even think about, much less argue about.

Yonosa Wrote:how would you know he is not a native japanese speaker, you aren't one so it sounds like just conjecture for you to even speak on it.

Wow, Yonosa is even more arrogant than me (I salute you!). Let's face it, Yonosa is never gonna reach fluency, thats a fact, how ever much he wants/claims/dreams/wishes/says/rants it, he has this image how it gonna be (ideally), but that's all it's ever gonna be: AN IMAGE, end of story. NEXT!
*gleaming

Tobberoth Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:It's about your ability to feel a language, not your ability to list complex words or write hard kanji from memory. A first language and a second language will always be separate. I might get a better score than the average American on the English SAT, who knows? But I wouldn't use that as a basis to claim I'm more fluent than the average American, that's preposterous.

Ｉt does in fact mean that you understand more english than the average American,


But in you dictionary; FLuency= A magical place that can only be attained by a child who grows up somewhere, but they can't be too old and they have to mature at least a certain amount in that language because then the magical place can be attained. No adults allowed!

No, it doesn't mean that. Just like passing JLPT1 doesn't mean you're fluent just because JLPT1 is called fluency level. I mean, I can learn 100 四字熟語 in a few days and claim I'm better at Japanese than Japanese people because they don't know 100 四字熟語 by heart. But face it, only an idiot would seriously think that. Being of native-like fluency is something completely different than learning hard words.

What you seem to be saying is that feeling involved with the language would be different, but I am not interested in feelings, I think if you can read those 100 4 kanji compounds then in fact at that small section of Japanese you are in fact better than a native(assuming that it is true that they cant do 100 or what not on average which I have no idea where that info would come from But as far as the quantifiable amount of information in a language one can understand, that is all I am referring to, I could careless if the feeling wasn't the same of it you couldn't refer to some pop culture references, I find my interests have often left me quite separate from a lot of pop culture references that my peers have tossed around the past few years. I could careless, if some japanese/chinese told me a joke and I didnt understand it the first time, who cares you'd know to laugh next time, you'd learn why it was funny, that's enough for me.

Musashi Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:how would you know he is not a native japanese speaker, you aren't one so it sounds like just conjecture for you to even speak on it.

Wow, Yonosa is even more arrogant than me
*gleaming

How is that arrogance? That is the truth....... WHy is everything here "oh you are arrogant!!!", you don't agree with that? who else could possibly tell who's a native speaker, but... another native speaker, and according to tob, he could never be able to tell since he is not capable of becoming at the same level as native speaker the best he can do is to be "like" that same level, which just ain't the same goshdarned thing. Sounds like it would have to be considered conjecture then ne?

Yonosa Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:how would you know he is not a native japanese speaker, you aren't one so it sounds like just conjecture for you to even speak on it.

Wow, Yonosa is even more arrogant than me
*gleaming

How is that arrogance? That is the truth....... WHy is everything here "oh you are arrogant!!!", you don't agree with that? who else could possibly tell who's a native speaker, but... another native speaker, and according to tob, he could never be able to tell since he is not capable of becoming at the same level as native speaker the best he can do is to be "like" that same level, which just ain't the same goshdarned thing. Sounds like it would have to be considered conjecture then ne?

Yea that word is so easy/handy to use and it DOES apply to many things don't you agree?

*ponders what the *beep* ever happened to humbleness...

No seriously, I think arrogant people don't care...

Yonosa Wrote:I am not interested in feelings

Yonosa Wrote:I could careless if ...

Yonosa Wrote:I could careless, if some japanese/chinese told me a joke...

Yonosa Wrote:who cares...

oops

Yonosa Wrote:What you seem to be saying is that feeling involved with the language would be different, but I am not interested in feelings, I think if you can read those 100 4 kanji compounds then in fact at that small section of Japanese you are in fact better than a native(assuming that it is true that they cant do 100 or what not on average which I have no idea where that info would come from But as far as the quantifiable amount of information in a language one can understand, that is all I am referring to, I could careless if the feeling wasn't the same of it you couldn't refer to some pop culture references, I find my interests have often left me quite separate from a lot of pop culture references that my peers have tossed around the past few years. I could careless, if some japanese/chinese told me a joke and I didnt understand it the first time, who cares you'd know to laugh next time, you'd learn why it was funny, that's enough for me.

That's not really the kind of feeling I'm talking about though. Understanding a joke is purely context and has little to do with fluency, since natives can have just as hard a time understanding a joke as a foreigner.

It's more that... I could study for the SAT and get a really good score... but still not be able to talk in that language in even close to the same way as they do. Knowing a quantifiable amount is great, but it's in USAGE that you show how close to a native you are. And you CAN learn to mimic natives extremely well, so well that you get native-like fluency, like I said. But you can never go back in time and grow up using said language, and that will always make a difference. Let's say you start learning Japanese at 15. At 20, you move to Japan. At that point, you have 5 years of learning down, you can probably nail JLPT1 without any problem. But a Japanese person your age has 20 years. And not only did he exposure himself to Japanese from movies and books. He has exposed himself every day. From other people, in school, from TV, from books, from newspapers, from his own mind when he's thinking in Japanese. His advantage, exposure wise, is enormous. And you can never catch up to that.

"You have a lot to catch up, and since you're not a child anymore you probably won't get the chance to.

For example, getting native jokes is very hard like some joke that natives get because it's a pun on a phrase from a popular show from 10 years ago."
The ability to identify TV shows and reference their content has to do with fluency. A person could fit your example and be 110% fluent in Japanese.

You go Ryuu, that's what I said in another post, cultural references has nothing to do with language fluency, people in some subcultures can be so far removed from the mainstream to not know many cultural references at all, take the AMISH!, THEYRE NO FLUENT! ahaha they don't know britney shaved her head and divorced Kfed(being ridiculous on purpose here, but come on they don't know tons of common cultural refs, they dont even watch tv, neither did I until I started my language learning)


But anyways Ryuu, you can be confident that through reason, our side of the arguement is much more sensible. They will likely never admit it, but I do hope to see what they "feel" to write next.

Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:Feel a language? That's a glittering generality; much too vague. You make it clear that L1 is on another level than L2, and yet, you don't seem to know how to properly gauge fluency.

Well then Mr Expert, tell us how to guage fluency correctly then? If you will only accept your own terms, then by all means, describe.

The ability to identify mistakes has no correlation to the ability to demonstrate. You and others are like scavenger wolves on a dead rabbit when it comes to proving someone isn't "native fluent", but have yet to properly define what is fluent; even if the person speaks better than the amazing, godly, omnipotent natives. I've also seen numerous demonstrations of the misconception that native fluency is fluency on steroids, despite the fact that I live among several real counterexamples.

Musashi Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:Wow, Yonosa is even more arrogant than me
*gleaming

How is that arrogance? That is the truth....... WHy is everything here "oh you are arrogant!!!", you don't agree with that? who else could possibly tell who's a native speaker, but... another native speaker, and according to tob, he could never be able to tell since he is not capable of becoming at the same level as native speaker the best he can do is to be "like" that same level, which just ain't the same goshdarned thing. Sounds like it would have to be considered conjecture then ne?

Yea that word is so easy/handy to use and it DOES apply to many things don't you agree?

*ponders what the *beep* ever happened to humbleness...

I am just following the same chain of reasoning that is being used, to show its fallacies and shortcomings, which are evident, argue them or not, you know you can see the obvious contradictions all over the place.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:What you seem to be saying is that feeling involved with the language would be different, but I am not interested in feelings, I think if you can read those 100 4 kanji compounds then in fact at that small section of Japanese you are in fact better than a native(assuming that it is true that they cant do 100 or what not on average which I have no idea where that info would come from But as far as the quantifiable amount of information in a language one can understand, that is all I am referring to, I could careless if the feeling wasn't the same of it you couldn't refer to some pop culture references, I find my interests have often left me quite separate from a lot of pop culture references that my peers have tossed around the past few years. I could careless, if some japanese/chinese told me a joke and I didnt understand it the first time, who cares you'd know to laugh next time, you'd learn why it was funny, that's enough for me.

That's not really the kind of feeling I'm talking about though. Understanding a joke is purely context and has little to do with fluency, since natives can have just as hard a time understanding a joke as a foreigner.

It's more that... I could study for the SAT and get a really good score... but still not be able to talk in that language in even close to the same way as they do. Knowing a quantifiable amount is great, but it's in USAGE that you show how close to a native you are. And you CAN learn to mimic natives extremely well, so well that you get native-like fluency, like I said. But you can never go back in time and grow up using said language, and that will always make a difference. Let's say you start learning Japanese at 15. At 20, you move to Japan. At that point, you have 5 years of learning down, you can probably nail JLPT1 without any problem. But a Japanese person your age has 20 years. And not only did he exposure himself to Japanese from movies and books. He has exposed himself every day. From other people, in school, from TV, from books, from newspapers, from his own mind when he's thinking in Japanese. His advantage, exposure wise, is enormous. And you can never catch up to that.

Dude, overtime if you delve into massive amounts of native sources, the time could be made up. I mean certainly there are people with considered native fluency who dropped out of High School and have only read 5 books in their whole lives, they're natively fluent "they grew up there" and that's the key right??

Well anyways a foreigner could easily catch such a person, content amount wise.

And about the "you could never catch up" part, you really believe that, you think that the average native will spend as much time reading as I will? the average netive will probably spend half the time I focus on language learning doing something unrelated, also you don't even try and address the fact that natives often simply forget things out of misuse and through SRS's we can keep ourselves from forgetting and continue until we know all the words we want, then we can just iron out all the uses in a couple years. I don't think it takes nearly as long to actually acquire the knowledge we do growing up as it does when we are growing up, for instance, I will only go over certain subjects in certain grades of school, and until I discovered the nonfiction genre of books(figuratively), I always felt inhibited by not learning things I was interested in school, like physics and etc, physics being a senior only class at my HS, so naturally I got to physics and it was a cake walk because I had been reading about physics the past 4 years, and HS physics was just a joke and an easy A. I think if we make our own schedule we can easily condense a lifetime of data into a very heavily focused few years, and then iron out the rest the next few.

Yonosa Wrote:

vosmiura Wrote:@Yanosa, reaching native level is not only dependent on how many hours you study, it's on how much you can experience, and by the time you're an adult you're virtually a lifetime behind your peers. You have a lot to catch up, and since you're not a child anymore you probably won't get the chance to.

For example, getting native jokes is very hard like some joke that natives get because it's a pun on a phrase from a popular show from 10 years ago.

Are you bilingual?

Yeah, my mother tongue is Romanian, but it's pretty bad now; English dominates and I have a tendency to try to express things in an English way.

Yonosa Wrote:I am just following the same chain of reasoning that is being used, to show its fallacies and shortcomings, which are evident, argue them or not, you know you can see the obvious contradictions all over the place.

How bout no reasoning?
It's all talk-talk-no-action-boo-hoo, how bout coming back after 10 years and prove us all wrong. Words don't make action, NEXT

Yonosa Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:

vosmiura Wrote:Since when does someone need native fluency to get a university degree or higher?
Having the language ability to complete a university degree does not equal native level. Lots of foreigners go to universities, and become fluent enough to get through their degrees sometimes with better grades than the natives, but they still are not at native language level. They would likely still have an accent, have a limited active vocabulary, and make some mistakes that a native would easily be able to distinguish. You don't have to speak like a native to get a degree.

Can you provide proof?

No, it's just conjecture.

Proof of what, that a lot of foreigners get degrees without speaking perfectly? If you've been to university it shouldn't be hard to know for yourself.

ryuudou Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:Feel a language? That's a glittering generality; much too vague. You make it clear that L1 is on another level than L2, and yet, you don't seem to know how to properly gauge fluency.

Well then Mr Expert, tell us how to guage fluency correctly then? If you will only accept your own terms, then by all means, describe.

The ability to identify mistakes has no correlation to the ability to demonstrate. You and others are like scavenger wolves on a dead rabbit when it comes to proving someone isn't "native fluent", but have yet to properly define what is fluent; even if the person speaks better than the amazing, godly, omnipotent natives. I've also seen numerous demonstrations of the misconception that native fluency is fluency on steroids, despite the fact that I live among several real counterexamples.

But it isn't hard to give definitions on what is fluent. It's just that it has to be done every time, in every situation since the word is so extremely broad and vague. This has been covered in hundreds of topics before, everyone can't list their specific definitions on what is and what isn't fluency every time we have an argument.

If you want me to, I can define what I consider native-like fluent and explain why Khazu isn't. But is it relevant at all? And will it in any way change Yonosa's opinion? Hardly. The only reason I brought it up is because it's silly to say "You can become native in a language, look at Khazu" when it's very debatable how native and even how fluent he is, depending on definitions of the terms.

Musashi Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:how would you know he is not a native japanese speaker, you aren't one so it sounds like just conjecture for you to even speak on it.

Wow, Yonosa is even more arrogant than me (I salute you!). Let's face it, Yonosa is never gonna reach fluency, thats a fact, how ever much he wants/claims/dreams/wishes/says/rants it, he has this image how it gonna be (ideally), but that's all it's ever gonna be: AN IMAGE, end of story. NEXT!
*gleaming

If you're going to say things with absolutely no logic behind them then you might as well take your clothes off and stand on your head.

If anyone isn't going to become fluent it's YOU because of your, as you've made apparent, illogical reasoning which could, for as far as I know, transfer into other areas of your life.

Yonosa Wrote:Dude, overtime if you delve into massive amounts of native sources, the time could be made up. I mean certainly there are people with considered native fluency who dropped out of High School and have only read 5 books in their whole lives, they're natively fluent "they grew up there" and that's the key right??

Well anyways a foreigner could easily catch such a person, content amount wise.

It's a good point, but question is if it matters. Even a Japanese native who has only read 5 books in his life has used Japanese everyday since he learned to talk. He has understood Japanese even longer. He still thinks and communicates in Japanese each day, probably several hours a day. You can EASILY catch up to most Japanese when it comes to content read I believe, but is that enough? Again, it depends on your definition. I personally believe it's more "native-like" to speak completely fluently and natural in conversations than to be able to read a lot of hard classical Japanese books. I know several foreigners in Sweden who has read more Swedish books than me but still clearly show that they are foreigners when they are speaking. Not by making grammatical mistakes or by not understanding certain words, but simply from speaking in an unnatural way, a way no regular Swedish person would. Question is, hypothetically, would you consider someone who can't properly speak Japanese in an everyday situation BETTER at Japanese than a native, simply because he can read complex Japanese books when said native might have problems doing so?

Musashi Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:I am just following the same chain of reasoning that is being used, to show its fallacies and shortcomings, which are evident, argue them or not, you know you can see the obvious contradictions all over the place.

How bout no reasoning?
It's all talk-talk-no-action-boo-hoo, how bout coming back after 10 years and prove us all wrong. Words don't make action, NEXT

What are you talking about? We are not talking about me here? I am just saying in theory it is possible for me to attain fluency, if I do or don't I most likely would be absorbed in the said language and wouldnt come back here to tell you all. But maybe I would! Because after all I must share my arrogance as you say.

Anyways, this is just deflecting what we are talking about, which is if it is possible, which I feel it is, based on the reasons I have said. But you and your troupe feel that we cant based on the "fact" that we can never "feel" the magic of L1.

Tobberoth Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Well then Mr Expert, tell us how to guage fluency correctly then? If you will only accept your own terms, then by all means, describe.

The ability to identify mistakes has no correlation to the ability to demonstrate. You and others are like scavenger wolves on a dead rabbit when it comes to proving someone isn't "native fluent", but have yet to properly define what is fluent; even if the person speaks better than the amazing, godly, omnipotent natives. I've also seen numerous demonstrations of the misconception that native fluency is fluency on steroids, despite the fact that I live among several real counterexamples.

But it isn't hard to give definitions on what is fluent. It's just that it has to be done every time, in every situation since the word is so extremely broad and vague. This has been covered in hundreds of topics before, everyone can't list their specific definitions on what is and what isn't fluency every time we have an argument.

If you want me to, I can define what I consider native-like fluent and explain why Khazu isn't. But is it relevant at all? And will it in any way change Yonosa's opinion? Hardly. The only reason I brought it up is because it's silly to say "You can become native in a language, look at Khazu" when it's very debatable how native and even how fluent he is, depending on definitions of the terms.

This applies to all languages and not just Japanese. Mere connotations don't matter; there is only one denotation. Without considering the illiterate, If you speak and write better than the average of a native country, and you aren't residing in an alternative reality; it is factual that you are fluent. Accent has no role in this (hi vosimura). Referencing crappy TV shows has no role in this (hi again, vosimura).

ryuudou Wrote:This applies to all languages and not just Japanese. Mere connotations don't matter; there is only one denotation. Without considering the illiterate, If you speak and write better than the average of a native country, and you aren't residing in an alternative reality; it is factual that you are fluent. Accent has no role in this (hi vosimura). Referencing crappy TV shows has no role in this (hi again, vosimura).

No one here has claimed you aren't fluent if you speak and write better than the average native. I am fluent in English, all I've said is that I'm not BETTER at English than a native.

What I'm talking about is the term I used from the start, native-like fluency. Not fluency. Fluency is, like I said, WAY too broad. And I would not consider one of native-like fluency if they use incorrect accents while speaking Japanese, or uses the wrong tones when speaking Chinese. A native wouldn't make those mistakes (in NORMAL cases, all people make mistakes from time to time).

ryuudou Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:how would you know he is not a native japanese speaker, you aren't one so it sounds like just conjecture for you to even speak on it.

Wow, Yonosa is even more arrogant than me (I salute you!). Let's face it, Yonosa is never gonna reach fluency, thats a fact, how ever much he wants/claims/dreams/wishes/says/rants it, he has this image how it gonna be (ideally), but that's all it's ever gonna be: AN IMAGE, end of story. NEXT!
*gleaming

If you're going to say things with absolutely no logic behind them then you might as well take your clothes off and stand on your head.

If anyone isn't going to become fluent it's YOU because of your, as you've made apparent, illogical reasoning which could, for as far as I know, transfer into other areas of your life.

*Ouch! now I'm hurt (NOT)

C'mon people, ya'll know very well what is FLUENT. It ain't no catching Pokemon in Japanese 99% but not being able to do a conversation about let's say abortion. You ain't fluent when you can pass JLPT1, but still struggle to read 'difficult' sections in the newspaper. You ain't fluent when you've lived in the country for 10 years but don't catch the simple joke of the person next to you while everybody else gets it. Fluency is you get and can do everything 100%, it ain't that difficult to see that. And it don't need to turn into this whole debacle of what is fluent in your opinion and what is fluent in mine.
It seems more like some people are trying to set the bar lower of what defines fluency to make it seem more achievable, puliez!

Yonosa Wrote:I am just saying in theory it is possible for me to attain fluency, if I do or don't I most likely would be absorbed in the said language and wouldnt come back here to tell you all. But maybe I would! Because after all I must share my arrogance as you say.

Ok, ok, ok, I get it, it's your theory, and that's cool, everybody's allowed to have one. We're cool, it's your theory, I get it.