Yonosa Wrote:I've only been here 11 years and I speak english as well as the next guy... so I assume the same thing would happen in China or Japan, I am thinking.

It's a naive assumption. You can't go through adolescence again. Your environment has changed. Your don't go through the same experiences as an adult, and you don't have the same kind of exposure.

vosmiura Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:I've only been here 11 years and I speak english as well as the next guy... so I assume the same thing would happen in China or Japan, I am thinking.

It's a naive assumption. You can't go through adolescence again. Your environment has changed. Your don't go through the same experiences as an adult, and you don't have the same kind of exposure.

Unless...he still hasn't reached adolescence yet (though his age has...)

Is anyone here Fluent?
http://forum.koohii.com/profile.php?id=1973
I doubt he is going to chime in on this thread though.

Yonosa, I admire your drive. You seem like a good guy.

However, since you're the one making claims that go against current thought, you're the one that should be furnishing references to back your claim up. It's widely known that linguists believe that adult learners will never be at the same level in an L2 learned as an adult as they are in their L1. Your attitude in this thread is really irritating because you're being pretty arrogant and insulting the other people's posts without backing yourself up whatsoever. Let's see some reference from you backing up your claims that people can achieve native-like fluency as adult learners before you go off on any more childish rants about people's posts being garbage and irrelevant. Be a little more respectful and adult.

I'm not saying native-like is impossible, but it isn't likely. Very few people have achieved this in Chinese, I know for a fact. Dashan is a celebrity because of it. That's saying something about the number of people who accomplish this. But native fluency is not possible by definition. You are not a native, so you can not have native fluency. Just trying to clarify terms.

It's only impossible if you believe it to be impossible. That's like... the first rule of AJATT (can do, can't do), (yes I'm an AJATTist, shoot me).

Me, I don't see any reason why it isn't possible. I'm native-level fluent and can think in two languages, and I can do it in 3.

bflatnine Wrote:Yonosa, I admire your drive. You seem like a good guy.

However, since you're the one making claims that go against current thought, you're the one that should be furnishing references to back your claim up. It's widely known that linguists believe that adult learners will never be at the same level in an L2 learned as an adult as they are in their L1. Your attitude in this thread is really irritating because you're being pretty arrogant and insulting the other people's posts without backing yourself up whatsoever. Let's see some reference from you backing up your claims that people can achieve native-like fluency as adult learners before you go off on any more childish rants about people's posts being garbage and irrelevant. Be a little more respectful and adult.

I'm not saying native-like is impossible, but it isn't likely. Very few people have achieved this in Chinese, I know for a fact. Dashan is a celebrity because of it. That's saying something about the number of people who accomplish this. But native fluency is not possible by definition. You are not a native, so you can not have native fluency. Just trying to clarify terms.

Ok, I won't post references right now because I need to sleep soon, I'm on a terrible schedule right now , but let's just put it this way. I don't understand what you guys mean, because I see it like this; if someone is able to go to a foreign country and attend a foreign university and graduate from that university, assuming that teachers didn't go easy on them(which I don't think teachers would do, particularly in graduate school), and then take into account that the average native of that country is considered not bright enough to enter university but are considered linguistically fluent and native, but could not communicate in a university environment. Then how is the individual who is able to communicate at the top levels of that society not considered to have attained native fluency, even not considering if they use their first language to produce the second. If they are able to understand and communicate at the level of a university graduate(hopefully with the pronunciation to boot) in a society where most natives even could not(also remember that in universities a lot of the common speaking is used besides the high vocabulary and more verbose professional speaking, so that would mean that the foreigner who graduated would be able to understand the average speaker, and not only that it also would mean that the foreigner could linguistically dominate the commoner), then how are is that foreigner not at native fluency?

I am not saying the person becomes a native, just that they would be able to communicate at all levels of a native, therefore indistinguishable from one besides perhaps by race.

I am not talking here of probability of achieving fluency, I am saying it is possible, so few do it because its a ROYAL B#@H to do, but it's possible, and assuming I put in the hours, which hey, I'm willing to, for the most part I enjoy it, then I don't see how I couldn't achieve native fluency in another language again?

Yonosa Wrote:if someone is able to go to a foreign country and attend a foreign university and graduate from that university, assuming that teachers didn't go easy on them(which I don't think teachers would do, particularly in graduate school), and then take into account that the average native of that country is considered not bright enough to enter university but are considered linguistically fluent and native

I don't think people are not attending university because of an inability to communicate. In other words, there are other things than ability to communicate (usually) that are preventing them from entering university.

IceCream Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

FutureBlues Wrote:Just recently this resulted in a falling-out with my girlfriend because something she did made me angry for reasons I couldn't fathom until I really sat and thought about it in English, alone. When I originally got angry at her, I found that I couldn't explain why I was angry in Japanese, because the Japanese part of me wasn't able to internalize those concerns into something it could easily digest and then spit back out.

And if I try to tell her off, she just makes it out to be my fault and I lose my ability to defend myself since I'm irritated and can't think properly

I think I need to have some japanese friends teach me how to be mad in Japanese

Does anyone think that using another language constantly actually changes your emotions? Not because of the differences in culture, but, if you just don't know how to express an emotion properly to yourself, does that change what you tend to feel over time?

Certainly yes!, Orwell raised this concept in 1984. I'm pretty sure there is some psycho-linguistic study on it too. I see it as the simple matter of self-expression in a language in general that is, even as a native speaker your emotions may change if you fee like you learn a set of new words.
So it's not because you're learning a new langauge with different forms of expression (although it possibly can be since languages are different in the tiny bits that they are), but rather that you lack experience expressing what you feel in the langauge that you're learning. So that once you gain more experience in the language, you feel as if your range of emotions somehow increases.

I think it only becomes more evident to you because you are now conscious of your actual language learning experience, whereas in your native language you grew with it, just like how you can't tell when your pet dog is growing fat, yet your friends who visit monthly notice the change.


This is all out of my ass though, but that's where all hypothesis start I spose

But it makes sense in a way, if you have a certain feeling but you cannot label that feeling it won't feel so compelling (I'm almost certain that there is some specific term for this). So once it has a name (for a word) or a structure (for a grammar construct), you can use it so eloquently to express your feelings. Thus it gives the brain a direct emotional connection to a feeling, and a name for that feeling, releasing more endorphins bla bla bla.

Now that's where creative writers and authors come into play who set a standard of expression and written langauge. This is why I think "English" class in High School in Australia/(USA/UK?) should be renamed to "Language" or something more generic, because I believe all languages have this inherant similarity that is expression. Every language has the concept of hyperbole, satire, juxtaposition etc.


Okay, 4am, I wrote too much this post probably doesn't make sense
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danieldesu Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:if someone is able to go to a foreign country and attend a foreign university and graduate from that university, assuming that teachers didn't go easy on them(which I don't think teachers would do, particularly in graduate school), and then take into account that the average native of that country is considered not bright enough to enter university but are considered linguistically fluent and native

I don't think people are not attending university because of an inability to communicate. In other words, there are other things than ability to communicate (usually) that are preventing them from entering university.

Well yeah, money, unmotivated, and often as a result not entirely very learned, and therefore lacking a lot of the higher level vocabulary required for University, not that they couldn't learn them in a hurry if necessary but that's where "unmotivated" comes in.

liosama Wrote:Now that's where creative writers and authors come into play who set a standard of expression and written langauge. This is why I think "English" class in High School in Australia/(USA/UK?) should be renamed to "Language" or something more generic, because I believe all languages have this inherant similarity that is expression. Every language has the concept of hyperbole, satire, juxtaposition etc.

In junior high here, it's called Languages Arts. At my junior high, anyway.

Tobberoth Wrote:

FutureBlues Wrote:Just recently this resulted in a falling-out with my girlfriend because something she did made me angry for reasons I couldn't fathom until I really sat and thought about it in English, alone. When I originally got angry at her, I found that I couldn't explain why I was angry in Japanese, because the Japanese part of me wasn't able to internalize those concerns into something it could easily digest and then spit back out.

And if I try to tell her off, she just makes it out to be my fault and I lose my ability to defend myself since I'm irritated and can't think properly

I think I need to have some japanese friends teach me how to be mad in Japanese

I think the problem wasn't about lack off fluency in Japanese, but lack of fluency in Womanese...

But don't worry, you can always go the AWATT way... -as long as it's about the same W All The Time...:lol:

Though, to be honest, I doubt whether any male can reach fluency in that language.

@Yanosa, reaching native level is not only dependent on how many hours you study, it's on how much you can experience, and by the time you're an adult you're virtually a lifetime behind your peers. You have a lot to catch up, and since you're not a child anymore you probably won't get the chance to.

For example, getting native jokes is very hard like some joke that natives get because it's a pun on a phrase from a popular show from 10 years ago.

Then you guys are in the opinion that KHATZ from AJATT is not fluent?

Yonosa Wrote:Then you guys are in the opinion that KHATZ from AJATT is not fluent?

Not "native fluency" as you put it.

Quote:I don't understand what you guys mean, because I see it like this; if someone is able to go to a foreign country and attend a foreign university and graduate from that university, assuming that teachers didn't go easy on them(which I don't think teachers would do, particularly in graduate school), and then take into account that the average native of that country is considered not bright enough to enter university but are considered linguistically fluent and native, but could not communicate in a university environment. Then how is the individual who is able to communicate at the top levels of that society not considered to have attained native fluency, even not considering if they use their first language to produce the second. If they are able to understand and communicate at the level of a university graduate(hopefully with the pronunciation to boot) in a society where most natives even could not(also remember that in universities a lot of the common speaking is used besides the high vocabulary and more verbose professional speaking, so that would mean that the foreigner who graduated would be able to understand the average speaker, and not only that it also would mean that the foreigner could linguistically dominate the commoner), then how are is that foreigner not at native fluency?

Since when does someone need native fluency to get a university degree or higher?
Having the language ability to complete a university degree does not equal native level. Lots of foreigners go to universities, and become fluent enough to get through their degrees sometimes with better grades than the natives, but they still are not at native language level. They would likely still have an accent, have a limited active vocabulary, and make some mistakes that a native would easily be able to distinguish. You don't have to speak like a native to get a degree.

vosmiura Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:Then you guys are in the opinion that KHATZ from AJATT is not fluent?

Not "native fluency" as you put it.

Quote:I don't understand what you guys mean, because I see it like this; if someone is able to go to a foreign country and attend a foreign university and graduate from that university, assuming that teachers didn't go easy on them(which I don't think teachers would do, particularly in graduate school), and then take into account that the average native of that country is considered not bright enough to enter university but are considered linguistically fluent and native, but could not communicate in a university environment. Then how is the individual who is able to communicate at the top levels of that society not considered to have attained native fluency, even not considering if they use their first language to produce the second. If they are able to understand and communicate at the level of a university graduate(hopefully with the pronunciation to boot) in a society where most natives even could not(also remember that in universities a lot of the common speaking is used besides the high vocabulary and more verbose professional speaking, so that would mean that the foreigner who graduated would be able to understand the average speaker, and not only that it also would mean that the foreigner could linguistically dominate the commoner), then how are is that foreigner not at native fluency?

Since when does someone need native fluency to get a university degree or higher?
Having the language ability to complete a university degree does not equal native level. Lots of foreigners go to universities, and become fluent enough to get through their degrees sometimes with better grades than the natives, but they still are not at native language level. They would likely still have an accent, have a limited active vocabulary, and make some mistakes that a native would easily be able to distinguish. You don't have to speak like a native to get a degree.

I've personally met more than one people at university with perfect english, who didn't come till America until past 20. One was a Palistinian friend who I used to take calculus with, and the other is a Korean I met at the international student groups, they had each been in america for approximately 4 years, the korean was here maybe near 5. They seemed to both make a lot less mistakes than your average American who always saying "I don't go nothing" and " I don't know nobody", in general their english was far more pleasing to listen to imo, then to that of an uneducated high school drop out or the like, like someone whos Career McDonald's or something.(not trying to stereotype too much)

Also I had my girlfriend listen to Khatzmoto's vid he posted, and I didnt show her the vid and she said she almost couldnt tell, he was gaijin and we she I showed her she was ee!. Also, post some references of bilinguals sayings this, and some science please, thats the only way I would ever be convinced, right now I just assume these are just a bunch of life long monolings talking for some unknown aparent reason adamantly claiming it cant be done.

Unfortunately monolings have no say in such things. cite some appropriate resources including bilings

vosmiura Wrote:@Yanosa, reaching native level is not only dependent on how many hours you study, it's on how much you can experience, and by the time you're an adult you're virtually a lifetime behind your peers. You have a lot to catch up, and since you're not a child anymore you probably won't get the chance to.

For example, getting native jokes is very hard like some joke that natives get because it's a pun on a phrase from a popular show from 10 years ago.

Are you bilingual?

vosmiura Wrote:Since when does someone need native fluency to get a university degree or higher?
Having the language ability to complete a university degree does not equal native level. Lots of foreigners go to universities, and become fluent enough to get through their degrees sometimes with better grades than the natives, but they still are not at native language level. They would likely still have an accent, have a limited active vocabulary, and make some mistakes that a native would easily be able to distinguish. You don't have to speak like a native to get a degree.

Can you provide proof?

Like everyone is saying, it's impossible to become native, but I do believe native-like fluency is attainable. It's definitely not Khazu though.

Native-like fluency is like... well, Khazu's English maybe? It simply means you aren't a native but you've lived and used the language daily SOO much that your frame of reference is starting to get extremely close to a native.

I don't have this fluency in English, but if I lived in the US or UK for 5 years, I would. It's not something you can reach by SRSing or even exposing yourself to the language though. It has more to do with culture. You HAVE to live your daily life like those natives.

ryuudou Wrote:

vosmiura Wrote:Since when does someone need native fluency to get a university degree or higher?
Having the language ability to complete a university degree does not equal native level. Lots of foreigners go to universities, and become fluent enough to get through their degrees sometimes with better grades than the natives, but they still are not at native language level. They would likely still have an accent, have a limited active vocabulary, and make some mistakes that a native would easily be able to distinguish. You don't have to speak like a native to get a degree.

Can you provide proof?

No, it's just conjecture.

Tobberoth Wrote:Native-like fluency is like... well, Khazu's English maybe? It simply means you aren't a native but you've lived and used the language daily SOO much that your frame of reference is starting to get ex.

Since when does Native = Good? There's millions of "natives" who only speak on an average level.

Tobberoth Wrote:Like everyone is saying, it's impossible to become native, but I do believe native-like fluency is attainable. It's definitely not Khazu though.

Native-like fluency is like... well, Khazu's English maybe? It simply means you aren't a native but you've lived and used the language daily SOO much that your frame of reference is starting to get extremely close to a native.

I don't have this fluency in English, but if I lived in the US or UK for 5 years, I would. It's not something you can reach by SRSing or even exposing yourself to the language though. It has more to do with culture. You HAVE to live your daily life like those natives.

HAHA, you are saying that Khazu's english is not native-level, haha that's just dumb. He has an accent because that's how people from Kenya speak english...wtf... never cease to amaze Tob, another great and entertaining post. Culture and language can be quite seperate as well, an english speaker from england is not going to tell me I am not fluent in ENGLISH ENGLISH, that'd be absurd, in the case of Japanese, it just happens to be a one nation language for the most part. Anyways I don't think any other nation's besides japan speak japanese on any noticeable level, so yeah it seems like Language and culture are intertwined in this case, but that is not always the case.

ryuudou Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Native-like fluency is like... well, Khazu's English maybe? It simply means you aren't a native but you've lived and used the language daily SOO much that your frame of reference is starting to get ex.

Since when does Native = Good? There's millions of "natives" who only speak on an average level.

It's about your ability to feel a language, not your ability to list complex words or write hard kanji from memory. A first language and a second language will always be separate. I might get a better score than the average American on the English SAT, who knows? But I wouldn't use that as a basis to claim I'm more fluent than the average American, that's preposterous.

so...is anyone else feeling kind of depressed that the other thread that also dealt with the subject of fluency got deleted recently?

ryuudou Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Native-like fluency is like... well, Khazu's English maybe? It simply means you aren't a native but you've lived and used the language daily SOO much that your frame of reference is starting to get ex.

Since when does Native = Good? There's millions of "natives" who only speak on an average level.

The vast majority speak at an average level, most aspiring linguists here seem clueless to that though.

On a previous post some were even claiming that my english wasn't at a native level. Basing their presumptions on the few spelling mistakes that I happen to include in my posts out of laziness... and I'm not the only one.... But hey I'm not as native fluency so I should just shut up, like the idiot foreigner I am. Even though I'm not a foreigner anymore...and that I've been told I'm at least above idiot level by some untrustworthy folk....that's enough to make me believe!"( 　ﾟ,_ゝﾟ)ﾊﾞｶｼﾞｬﾈｰﾉ"

Yonosa Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Like everyone is saying, it's impossible to become native, but I do believe native-like fluency is attainable. It's definitely not Khazu though.

Native-like fluency is like... well, Khazu's English maybe? It simply means you aren't a native but you've lived and used the language daily SOO much that your frame of reference is starting to get extremely close to a native.

I don't have this fluency in English, but if I lived in the US or UK for 5 years, I would. It's not something you can reach by SRSing or even exposing yourself to the language though. It has more to do with culture. You HAVE to live your daily life like those natives.

HAHA, you are saying that Khazu's english is not native-level, haha that's just dumb. He has an accent because that's how people from Kenya speak english...wtf... never cease to amaze Tob, another great and entertaining post. Culture and language can be quite seperate as well, an english speaker from england is not going to tell me I am not fluent in ENGLISH ENGLISH, that'd be absurd, in the case of Japanese, it just happens to be a one nation language for the most part. Anyways I don't think any other nation's besides japan speak japanese on any noticeable level, so yeah it seems like Language and culture are intertwined in this case, but that is not always the case.

I actually said his English WAS native-level.