But I split my languages halfway through my cognitive development so I dont understand how this applies? I consciously changed my thinking into english at first , I remember doing that as I was learning.

Basicaly, you could that with English because, by that time, your cognition system was still under development, in maturing process - which is not the case now.

avparker Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:

orikosan Wrote:PS: As you guys probably can see, English is not my native language too...

[EDIT]
You can study your ass off and become the world's most fluent gaijin in japanese, but your mother tongue will always be something special, in a totally different level.

snip
Maybe those who have only spoke on language until reaching somewhere near the 20s would feel that way?

Just wondering what other people's view on this is.

Most of the people I know who can speak multiple languages well either grew up bi-lingual, or learned their second language while a teenager.
I don't mean that it's impossible to learn a second language to fluency as an adult, but I certainly think it's harder.


I'm 35. I grew up in NZ and Australia, and I basically only spoke English till I was 30+ years old. For the last few years I've been learning Japanese, and while I'm definitely making progress, I find I am almost always thinking in English. I'm around JLPT2 level in reading/kanji etc, but even simple conversational Japanese doesn't really feel natural.

It's only recently that I have experienced actually thinking in Japanese for a prolonged time (a couple of hours). Even then, when trying to speak I would often struggle to either express my ideas or find the correct word, in which case I could feel myself drifting back to thinking in English.

Will I ever stop thinking primarily in English? I don't think so.
Will I ever be able to truly think in Japanese? I'm not sure.

I guess it comes down to immersion - I'm always switching back to English due to my environment (work, girlfriend), which makes it next to impossible to sustain Japanese long enough to make it feel natural.

As a side note, sometimes it's easy to read about how fast other people are learning Japanese and feel a bit depressed. But sometimes they have some advantages that aren't immediately clear.
For example, did you know Katzumoto grew up in Kenya and spoke Swahili? And that he studied some Chinese before starting Japanese? Not to belittle his achievements or his method, but I think that put him a few steps ahead of someone starting out who only speaks English.

I agree on that final point, I think I am already kind of wired to learn another language and I remember the process quite vividly. I can see each step falling in place for japanese and chinese, just like I remember happening when i was learning english. THE SAME WAY, I'm older, but honestly I notice no difference in the way things are happening, so I think a lot of you who have only spoken one language, find it difficult to fathom. But it's not really that difficult to do, and I can tell I am moving forward a lot more quickly than I did with english. I never took classes in english either, I just went to school with the regular children, in all english, and withing one year I was just a regular student and did all the work the everyone else did. I think that is because I didnt have to learn that much though, I only had to learn the vocabulary of a child, so it worked to my advantage.

avparker Wrote:Will I ever stop thinking primarily in English? I don't think so.
Will I ever be able to truly think in Japanese? I'm not sure.

Just stop thinking in English and start thinking in Japanese. It's that easy!
I actually started to think primarily in English at one point. That's when I found out I was hanging arounds foreigners too much.

Now I think in three languages (German, English and Japanese) with Japanese being the "main" language. But counting, maths, basically anything that has to do with numbers has become a horrible mess. Germanesish if you will.

but my English is just a little bit better than the rest, than I could care less. I just want native university level ability in the 3 languages.

You said it all. That's what we all want: be FLUENT in japanese, NOT NATIVE. "Native university level" doesn't exist. You are NATIVE or NOT. Native level is impossible, for the reason I already stated. Reaching real FLUENT level is more than enough.

I might post some references later. I'm starving now... gonna go grab some food.


By the way, my first language is also portuguese - the language of god!.

Boa tarde.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

avparker Wrote:Will I ever stop thinking primarily in English? I don't think so.
Will I ever be able to truly think in Japanese? I'm not sure.

Just stop thinking in English and start thinking in Japanese. It's that easy!

I hope you're being sarcastic.

How can you possible function as an adult if you only think in a language where there are some concepts you don't know how to express?

I guess this raises the question of whether thought it tied to a language.
Is that the real secret to becoming multi-lingual - breaking that tie?
I think this came up in another thread, on using Japanese keywords for RTK.
For example, when I think of an apple, the tie to the word apple is very strong. Someone else was saying they always pictured an apple.
For a multi-linguage person, is the concept of an object separated from the specific words. i.e. the fact that an apple is linked to "apple" and "りんご" makes the tie to one specific word less?

Anyway, I can't just stop thinking in English, I would lose my job (and my girlfriend).

I do take your point though - perhaps I should actively try to think in Japanese more.

avparker Wrote:I hope you're being sarcastic.

How can you possible function as an adult if you only think in a language where there are some concepts you don't know how to express?
(...)
Anyway, I can't just stop thinking in English, I would lose my job (and my girlfriend).

Of course I'm not asking you to be an idiot when it comes to important situations. But you should at least try to think in Japanese as often as possible You're ability to think about complex stuff will naturally develop as your Japanese ability develops. Well, thinking in Japanese will probably do nothing if you're not learning, so go for it.

Yonosa Wrote:Why? research ? references? Explain better and I might listen, don't think I will though, even if my english and japanese and chinese are great and native level
but my English is just a little bit better than the rest, than I could care less. I just want native university level ability in the 3 languages.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying there is an explanation why your English is better than your mother tongue.

If you go to a college in China I think you can get to a very high level in a few years. I know plenty of people who did college in England or the states and got very good at English.

orikosan Wrote:but my English is just a little bit better than the rest, than I could care less. I just want native university level ability in the 3 languages.

You said it all. That's what we all want: be FLUENT in japanese, NOT NATIVE. "Native university level" doesn't exist. You are NATIVE or NOT. Native level is impossible, for the reason I already stated. Reaching real FLUENT level is more than enough.

I might post some references later. I'm starving now... gonna go grab some food.


By the way, my first language is also portuguese - the language of god!.

Boa tarde.

Native level is impossible... you don't need any references... for this kind of garbage...Of course it's possible.

BUT YEA! PORTUGUESE THE LANGUAGE OF JESUS!(choke)

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:A better question would be how many hours did you study.

There are way too many confounding variables for any measure of time to equal effort it took. Somebody has to invent a formula for some kind of measurement of effort. I call dibs on the cracky constant which is equal to the minimum amount of effort possible.

Maybe it should be measured in calories?

orikosan Wrote:By the way, my first language is also portuguese - the language of god!.

Boa tarde.

Your mom is a boa tarde.

danieldesu Wrote:Your mom is a boa tarde.

My mom is a "good afternoon"?

That's intriguing...

I supose yours is more like a "good 'night'" type, then...

Yonosa Wrote:But if you are implying that even if I lived in China or Japan for ten years I wouldn't reach their native level fluency, then I feel almost as if you are implying that I am an imbecile? I've only been here 11 years and I speak english as well as the next guy... so I assume the same thing would happen in China or Japan, I am thinking.

This was bothering me a while but it seems like you think too easily of learning 2 languages at the same time (the no easy feat Chinese and Japanese)and becoming 'fluent' in them. 'Just' being in a country doesn't automatically turns you fluent wether it's 3, 5 or 10 years.

Yonosa Wrote:I've only been here 11 years and I speak english as well as the next guy... so I assume the same thing would happen in China or Japan, I am thinking.

Don't assume automatically, 11 years have past already, you don't learn the things the same way as before because you got older. I'm not saying things like memory loss or something but your ability to absorb things around you has changed. It's much easier when you were a child and moved to let's say Germany and live there for 10 years and become fully integrated and German taking over your mothertongue (as English did that to your Portugese you said). But fast forward 10 years and now (wild guess) you're in your 20's I'd say, it's more difficult/different to integrate and absorb things compared to when you were a child and makes it that much more difficult reaching native fluency. Fast forward another 10 years and it's over ()

orikosan Wrote:You can't have two native languages after becoming an adult simply because you will be necessarily using your FIRST language to learn the SECOND one, conciencessly or not.

You can be extremely fluent in japanese, chinese, aramaic, urdu... by they will be never your NATIVE language. And it doesn't make you an imbecile.

I have to agree here though ofcourse there can be exceptions.

orikosan Wrote:My mom is a "good afternoon"?

Maybe he was trying to say "boa tarde é a mãe!!".

Musashi Wrote:Don't assume automatically, 11 years have past already, you don't learn the things the same way as before because you got older. I'm not saying things like memory loss or something but your ability to absorb things around you has changed. It's much easier when you were a child and moved to let's say Germany and live there for 10 years and become fully integrated and German taking over your mothertongue (as English did that to your Portugese you said). But fast forward 10 years and now (wild guess) you're in your 20's I'd say, it's more difficult/different to integrate and absorb things compared to when you were a child and makes it that much more difficult reaching native fluency. Fast forward another 10 years and it's over ()

The one reason I might not absorb as well is because I constantly break the environment, to answer irrelevant posts.

Yonosa Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:Don't assume automatically, 11 years have past already, you don't learn the things the same way as before because you got older. I'm not saying things like memory loss or something but your ability to absorb things around you has changed. It's much easier when you were a child and moved to let's say Germany and live there for 10 years and become fully integrated and German taking over your mothertongue (as English did that to your Portugese you said). But fast forward 10 years and now (wild guess) you're in your 20's I'd say, it's more difficult/different to integrate and absorb things compared to when you were a child and makes it that much more difficult reaching native fluency. Fast forward another 10 years and it's over ()

The one reason I might not absorb as well is because I constantly break the environment, to answer irrelevant posts.

see?

Yonosa Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:Don't assume automatically, 11 years have past already, you don't learn the things the same way as before because you got older. I'm not saying things like memory loss or something but your ability to absorb things around you has changed. It's much easier when you were a child and moved to let's say Germany and live there for 10 years and become fully integrated and German taking over your mothertongue (as English did that to your Portugese you said). But fast forward 10 years and now (wild guess) you're in your 20's I'd say, it's more difficult/different to integrate and absorb things compared to when you were a child and makes it that much more difficult reaching native fluency. Fast forward another 10 years and it's over ()

The one reason I might not absorb as well is because I constantly break the environment, to answer irrelevant posts.

goddam Brazilians... they are everywhere...



incluindo eu!

I think there are many things that constitute as fluency depending on situation. I am fluent in basic conversation, and I've been such for a very long time. What I mean by that is, I can speak in Japanese with my girlfriend without thinking about it. It comes automatically and I understand her automatically as well. It doesn't register to me that I'm speaking another language, more or less. However, I'm not even close to as fluent in Japanese as I am in English. I can't watch news in Japanese and understand even a portion of it as well as I understand English news (I understand English news just as well, if not better, than Swedish news). I can't read Japanese novels without a dictionary, I easily read English ones. I can read an English essay in social science. I wouldn't have a chance with a Japanese one.

Until my Japanese is similar to my English in ability, I refuse to call myself fluent, even though I am by some definitions.

This thread intrigues me as to the whole math - 2nd language connection.

It helps explain why I can have a fairly long conversation in Japanese, even the most basic math problems I have to convert to English numbers before I can tackle them. Jlpt1 practice tests killed me here.
It's something I always wanted to improve.
Is this something that can be trained? If so how would you go about self-studying to make yourself be able to do math in 2nd language, without thinking in your 1st.

orikosan Wrote:goddam Brazilians... they are everywhere...

Where?! I don't see no bonita's, linda's and gostooooosa's!
(apparently you have to stress the 'oooooosa' in gostosa I've been taught hehe)
And bring on that feijoada!

koyota Wrote:This thread intrigues me as to the whole math - 2nd language connection.

It helps explain why I can have a fairly long conversation in Japanese, even the most basic math problems I have to convert to English numbers before I can tackle them. Jlpt1 practice tests killed me here.
It's something I always wanted to improve.
Is this something that can be trained? If so how would you go about self-studying to make yourself be able to do math in 2nd language, without thinking in your 1st.

I don't see how there could be any problem there. Math generally builds on itself, and in the most basic level of it, it's just memorization. You don't count 3 four times when you want to solve 3 * 4, you know it's 12. You don't really think 6 + 1 several times, you know 6 + 4 is 10. Memorize those basic fundamentals in Japanese and it shouldn't matter whether you work with English or Japanese when doing math.

orikosan Wrote:But once you are an adult, there are some cognitive areas that will never be well "covered" by the japanese language. For example, the brain areas related to logic-mathematic cogniton and poetic language usage.

not that i'm a katzhumoto-ist but, this reminds me of a recent tweet of him reading:
"Unfortunately, the older you get, the harder it is to learn another language. Because you've got so much experience making lamea$$ excuses." lol

Musashi Wrote:

orikosan Wrote:goddam Brazilians... they are everywhere...

Where?! I don't see no bonita's, linda's and gostooooosa's!
(apparently you have to stress the 'oooooosa' in gostosa I've been taught hehe)
And bring on that feijoada!

unhappyly, the gostosas are normaly not very interested in debating japanese or linguistics...

it's easier to get a bonita japanese chick.

Tobberoth Wrote:I think there are many things that constitute as fluency depending on situation. I am fluent in basic conversation, and I've been such for a very long time. What I mean by that is, I can speak in Japanese with my girlfriend without thinking about it. It comes automatically and I understand her automatically as well. It doesn't register to me that I'm speaking another language, more or less. However, I'm not even close to as fluent in Japanese as I am in English. I can't watch news in Japanese and understand even a portion of it as well as I understand English news (I understand English news just as well, if not better, than Swedish news). I can't read Japanese novels without a dictionary, I easily read English ones. I can read an English essay in social science. I wouldn't have a chance with a Japanese one.

Until my Japanese is similar to my English in ability, I refuse to call myself fluent, even though I am by some definitions.

Right here with you, Tobberoth. That's exactly how I would describe my current level in Japanese. Although in my case, English is my native language, so I'd be in pretty bad shape if I couldn't read an essay in English.

Personally though, I notice that I think about things a lot differently in Japanese than I do in English. And it really bothers me, actually. Part of it is related to exposure. I'm exposed to Japanese conversation, which, as far as I'm concerned, is far less rich the than English expression I'm used to. People talk about this all the time but far too often in Japanese people give you "the answer" rather than a personal, more meaningful take on things. Therefore, when I speak Japanese, I tend to do the same thing and simply spit out the set phrase, rather than truly think about and make honest observations about the things I'm exposed to. And what is by far the most troubling is the great divide between these two different modes of expression-- the difference is so great that I feel like my Japanese persona is a far different person than my real English self.

Just recently this resulted in a falling-out with my girlfriend because something she did made me angry for reasons I couldn't fathom until I really sat and thought about it in English, alone. When I originally got angry at her, I found that I couldn't explain why I was angry in Japanese, because the Japanese part of me wasn't able to internalize those concerns into something it could easily digest and then spit back out. Even now I'm not sure what I'm going to say to her when I see her tomorrow.

FutureBlues Wrote:Just recently this resulted in a falling-out with my girlfriend because something she did made me angry for reasons I couldn't fathom until I really sat and thought about it in English, alone. When I originally got angry at her, I found that I couldn't explain why I was angry in Japanese, because the Japanese part of me wasn't able to internalize those concerns into something it could easily digest and then spit back out. Even now I'm not sure what I'm going to say to her when I see her tomorrow.

I know exactly what you're talking about here, this is a major problem between me and my girlfriend. She sometimes calls me very late, drunk, and start talking about stuff which makes little sense, often when I'm busy with something. I get very irritated and my inability to properly express my irritation is extremely frustrating. Just saying "Don't call me when I'm busy or when you're drunk" simply isn't enough. And if I try to tell her off, she just makes it out to be my fault and I lose my ability to defend myself since I'm irritated and can't think properly

I think I need to have some japanese friends teach me how to be mad in Japanese