MeNoSavvy Wrote:For most people I think trying to do AJATT or 8 hours a day of Heisig is probably going to suck your motivation due to all the other life experiences you are missing out on, boredom, and other factors. On the other hand if you really love spending all that time, I don't have an issue with it.

Now here is something which is REALLY important: Don't let Japanese take over your life. Just because you're learning Japanese doesn't mean you can't enjoy yourself in your native tongue. I'm always surprised by people who in the name of AJATT ban all their other hobbies and stop watching ANYTHING but Japanese movies, stop reading ANY websites which aren't Japanese etc... why would you want to do that? Why make Japanese a burden when it's supposed to be a tool?

Tobberoth Wrote:

MeNoSavvy Wrote:For most people I think trying to do AJATT or 8 hours a day of Heisig is probably going to suck your motivation due to all the other life experiences you are missing out on, boredom, and other factors. On the other hand if you really love spending all that time, I don't have an issue with it.

Now here is something which is REALLY important: Don't let Japanese take over your life. Just because you're learning Japanese doesn't mean you can't enjoy yourself in your native tongue. I'm always surprised by people who in the name of AJATT ban all their other hobbies and stop watching ANYTHING but Japanese movies, stop reading ANY websites which aren't Japanese etc... why would you want to do that? Why make Japanese a burden when it's supposed to be a tool?

Agreed. You have to not drive yourself mad, not drive everyone in your life away and still have a bit of fun in your native tongue. But in true AJATT style "if it aint fun, dont do it". So really I think you can mix AJATT in with regular life and not have it be a burden... it just wont be purely AJATT it would more likely be "A lot of Japanese A lot of The Time" Which is probably more accurate.

Ugh I just spent like 1.5 hrs inputting 32 new cards to my SRS and it will be 1.5 hrs to do production reviews. Who could forget about that? haha. Best tool to remember what you've learned though.

Tobberoth Wrote:

MeNoSavvy Wrote:For most people I think trying to do AJATT or 8 hours a day of Heisig is probably going to suck your motivation due to all the other life experiences you are missing out on, boredom, and other factors. On the other hand if you really love spending all that time, I don't have an issue with it.

Now here is something which is REALLY important: Don't let Japanese take over your life. Just because you're learning Japanese doesn't mean you can't enjoy yourself in your native tongue. I'm always surprised by people who in the name of AJATT ban all their other hobbies and stop watching ANYTHING but Japanese movies, stop reading ANY websites which aren't Japanese etc... why would you want to do that? Why make Japanese a burden when it's supposed to be a tool?

Well, why watch an English movie when there's a Japanese version? You will enjoy it anyway. That way it's not a burden. It's fun!.

(I actually cheated yesterday. My cinema only had Harry Potter in English with subtitles.)

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

MeNoSavvy Wrote:For most people I think trying to do AJATT or 8 hours a day of Heisig is probably going to suck your motivation due to all the other life experiences you are missing out on, boredom, and other factors. On the other hand if you really love spending all that time, I don't have an issue with it.

Now here is something which is REALLY important: Don't let Japanese take over your life. Just because you're learning Japanese doesn't mean you can't enjoy yourself in your native tongue. I'm always surprised by people who in the name of AJATT ban all their other hobbies and stop watching ANYTHING but Japanese movies, stop reading ANY websites which aren't Japanese etc... why would you want to do that? Why make Japanese a burden when it's supposed to be a tool?

Well, why watch an English movie when there's a Japanese version? You will enjoy it anyway. That way it's not a burden. It's fun!.

(I actually cheated yesterday. My cinema only had Harry Potter in English with subtitles.)

That would be like watching dubbed anime, it makes no sense. Why watch a Japanese version when the English version is better, just because it's Japanese?

Yonosa Wrote:

bandwidthjunkie Wrote:

captal Wrote:Some of us don't find SRSing as easy to tackle or as fun, that doesn't mean we should quit Japanese. I can probably count the number of times I've reviewed via SRS for more than an hour and a half in a given day on one hand- I take that back- I don't need any hands. It's 0. Japanese isn't an SRS- I'll take my nights out at the bar and my days at the beach with my Japanese volleyball friends over SRSing any day of the week. I don't learn from an SRS like I do from actually experiencing something, and I've always been that way.

Why do so many people have this attitude? That an SRS is the end all and be all of language learning? It is definitely a great tool, but the point of language is communication, not pressing the spacebar. And one definitely shouldn't quit just because they don't like SRSing- after all, people learned languages before the SRS came about.

Couldn't agree more, you'll never get the same kind of excitement from an SRS as you will from speaking real bad Japanese with a Japanese friend in a bar. A few months ago my gf came over to England and I took her to a rave, on the way back I insisted that we only spoke in Japanese (yep I was trashed); it was great, the driver didn't have a clue what we were saying and we were both really surprised how much I could say if I really tried. An SRS is a great tool, but it's a means to an end, not the end itself; sometimes it can be easy to forget that.

This post was just dumb, naturally it's not the end, I mean WhoTF thinks the SRS is the fun part, and who the f*&* here is learning Japanese so that they have an excuse to use an SRS, Noone of course... So why would you even say something this stupid.
Easy to forget that? no you seem to just like the sound of your words, because if you read that "sometimes it can be easy to forget that", really? really it can be easy to forget that? I mean I don't see how it can be easy to forget when an SRS in based on quantifying what we study, and our task if to learn a certain desired number of words/phrases/grammar styles... At the end of each review we can check the number of Kanji/Hanzi we can read, how many there are left to learn, how many words we need to know still, how many grammar styles, I mean we can even use frequency lists and give a pretty close estimate to how much of the given language we can understand, We can see pretty much all the statistics we need to and even estimate and END date.Easy to forget? I think the majority of the reason people here use SRS, is because it is easy to see that it's a "means to an end" since it makes knowledge a bit more quantifiable, and we can actually see how much we know, and I think If you ask most People on here I doubt that very many have forgotten it's a means to an end,Easy to Forget that? I couldn't see how. Also another great thing about an SRS is that it does opposite with the information we are learning, it helps us to REMEMBER.
馬鹿・・・

Use some reasoning next time and read over your post, before spitting that garbage out

Edit: Sorry for being mean about that though.

Deep breaths, deep breaths. When I said: "An SRS is a great tool, but it's a means to an end, not the end itself; sometimes it can be easy to forget that." I was talking about myself and my own personal experience. As you will see from my original post, the first time I really made an effort to learn Japanese I was in Japan and giving it about 8 hours a day. I was even living with a Japanese girl in a city where the ambient level of English was almost 0%, but all of my Japanese learning efforts were based around input to and validation by the SRS, my level of human interaction in Japanese was much less than it could / should have been because I was over expending all my energies on self-study via the SRS. In this respect I would say that subconsiously in some way I was seeing the SRS as the end in itself. Having done a phd, I know what a hard time many people including myself have in breaking away from theory and moving into practice. Digesting theory is easy (maybe safe is a better word), putting it into practice / doing research is hard (maybe scary is better). However, once you get going with practice most people find it much more enjoyable.

So the point I am trying to make is that for me, doing the SRS is a safe comfortable thing to do, but what I want to do more of is actual interaction in Japanese and learning the language more through human contact, now that I have decided to start up with Japanese again, and that is something that I find takes me out of my comfort zone.

Anyway, this is what I love about the internet, in the real world someone would most likely have said "That sounds a bit far fetched to me, I'm not quite sure I believe that, could you explain a little more?" On the internet someone replies "You Idiot! lalalalala." Also I would say further in my defence count the ratios of people saying some variation of "my goal is to get an extra 1000 cards in my deck by..." and people saying, "my goal is to be able to do this, this and this just in Japanese."

Tobberoth Wrote:That would be like watching dubbed anime, it makes no sense. Why watch a Japanese version when the English version is better, just because it's Japanese?

It's beneficial and fun. Also, some Japanese dubs tend to be hilarious. Triple win!

Have you watched Hunt for Red October in Japanese? They literally butchered some scenes.

I watch a lot of The Simpsons in Japanese. It's surprisingly faithful. I find I understand more since I know the source material by heart.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:That would be like watching dubbed anime, it makes no sense. Why watch a Japanese version when the English version is better, just because it's Japanese?

It's beneficial and fun. Also, some Japanese dubs tend to be hilarious. Triple win!

Have you watched Hunt for Red October in Japanese? They literally butchered some scenes.

But it isn't fun. When I go to watch a movie, I go to enjoy the movie. Not to enjoy how some other country butchered it. When I sit down to study, there's way better things to use than dubbed movies.

The point is that one needs free time, you can't study 24 hours a day. You still enjoy English media and you shouldn't stop enjoying it just because you "have to study". Watching butchered versions in Japanese for that same reason is just as bad.

Tobberoth Wrote:The point is that one needs free time, you can't study 24 hours a day. You still enjoy English media and you shouldn't stop enjoying it just because you "have to study". Watching butchered versions in Japanese for that same reason is just as bad.

Well, I do it for the reason that it's fun (it is my free time after all). At least to me it's fun to do stuff in a different language, watching new versions of movies I grew up with as a kid, pretending to be Japanese and the like. If it's not fun for you you obviously need to find something else. If I did not enjoy it I would not do it. Just like with anything else ("serious" studying, cleaning my room, having a haircut, watching Japanese dramas...)

Also I didn't mean "butcher" in a bad way. Just if you know the original version you can't help but chuckle because of some scenes.

Edit: Maybe this just proves how different methods apply to different people. If there's (enough) stuff in Japanese you find fun to do, AJATT is the right method for you. But of course that's not the case for everybody.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:The point is that one needs free time, you can't study 24 hours a day. You still enjoy English media and you shouldn't stop enjoying it just because you "have to study". Watching butchered versions in Japanese for that same reason is just as bad.

Well, I do it for the reason that it's fun (it is my free time after all). At least to me it's fun to do stuff in a different language, watching new versions of movies I grew up with as a kid, pretending to be Japanese and the like. If it's not fun for you you obviously need to find something else. If I did not enjoy it I would not do it. Just like with anything else ("serious" studying, cleaning my room, having a haircut, watching Japanese dramas...)

Also I didn't mean "butcher" in a bad way. Just if you know the original version you can't help but chuckle because of some scenes.

Edit: Maybe this just proves how different methods apply to different people. If there's (enough) stuff in Japanese you find fun to do, AJATT is the right method for you. But of course that's not the case for everybody.

You're still not getting it: Just because you enjoy watching dubbed versions of movies (which indeed, must be something we just differ in because I think it's horrible, then again, you're German so I take it you're quite used to dubbing) doesn't mean you should stop watching normal movies. You can do both. The problem is when you force yourself to do one thing just because it's in Japanese. I don't force myself to read Japanese books, I enjoy it. On the other hand, I don't force myself to NOT read ENGLISH novels, which I enjoy as well.

Tobberoth Wrote:You're still not getting it: Just because you enjoy watching dubbed versions of movies (which indeed, must be something we just differ in because I think it's horrible, then again, you're German so I take it you're quite used to dubbing) doesn't mean you should stop watching normal movies. You can do both. The problem is when you force yourself to do one thing just because it's in Japanese. I don't force myself to read Japanese books, I enjoy it. On the other hand, I don't force myself to NOT read ENGLISH novels, which I enjoy as well.

I get what you're saying.. and you're right! Forcing stuff never works. I tried to force myself to watch lots of Japanese news. Guess what, it didn't work, because I did not enjoy it. I tried to force myself to myself to read a specific book because I considered it to be "good for me". It didn't work either, because it wasn't particulary enjoyable. So now I just do stuff that I enjoy. Which happens to be Japanese stuff most of the time. I probably wouldn't read English comics translated into Japanese (which would be somewhat similar to dubbed movies) because that's probably not as interesting to me. In the end I do fun stuff, just like you. For example I'm participating here because it's fun. Even though it's not Japanese.

Fact is, I do both. I just don't feel the need to watch a movie in German or English too often. Once or twice during the last 8 months maybe.

Yonosa Wrote:"I would've probably just called you a "tard" in real life.

Ok I get it your about 14, fair enough.

Yonosa Wrote:quit the excuses or quit the method I say.

So polar. I say, mold the method. Everyone is different and everyone should learn in a way that suits them. It's not a matter of time. I'm a student in summer who can't get a job. I have *loads* of time. But forcing myself to do heaps of SRS reviews is just torture. It completely takes away the fun of Japanese for me. for the 9 or so months that I just continually studied Japanese non-stop, I loved the idea... but it wears on you over time. It no longer even feels like useful learning... just... school. And I don't like school.

But anyway...

Yonosa Wrote:This post was just dumb, naturally it's not the end, I mean WhoTF thinks the SRS is the fun part, and who the f*&* here is learning Japanese so that they have an excuse to use an SRS, Noone of course... So why would you even say something this stupid.

...no you seem to just like the sound of your words... Use some reasoning next time and read over your post, before spitting that garbage out

Edit: Sorry for being mean about that though.

Yonosa, just in case you aren't already aware of this, you are coming across as a pretty arrogant guy... I'm sure this is not actually the case, and I too think you have some good insights... But, this kind of personal attack just isn't appropriate. Besides, it just makes you look silly/immature anyway.

Please consider your own advice and take the time to read over your post before saying the first thing that enters your head.

IceCream Wrote:use the resources of the sentences you can download rather than spending hours inputting them

I disagree. Maybe it's an individual thing, but even with "difficult" vocabulary (names of ministeries, scientific vocabulary or whatever), I remember it best if there is a strong emotional connection. That is, in cases I really really wanted to add that sentence. However I also tried to go through lists etc. and it did not worth nearly as well. Quality counts. Well, for me at least.

I beat my head every time I get orange cards I ***** hate reviewing like nothing else, yet I pursue because I feel like batting off when I only see green cards and when I see myself progress.

Love hate situation really, and Yonosa you are too hardcore dude.

I have excuses for not bothering to review, or not bothering to add cards. I'm an unemployed student too but I do have other things to do (or I feel like not doing anything), this quit excuses or quit studying thing is pointless, absolutely pointless. Everyone takes a break every now and then, that's why the whole JLPT 1 in 3 months is absolute bullshit, because it doesn't factor in the human side of things.

Calm down, think about what you're trying to say and if you really actually mean it, because I doubt you meant what you said above^^

Well, just calling someone stupid and writing F**K isn't satirical, it's not even sarcastic. It's just normal badmouthing. Something like "Oh yeah, let's stop using SRSes, it's not like it has ever benefited anyone." would have been satirical, but that's not what you wrote.

Tobberoth Wrote:Well, just calling someone stupid and writing F**K isn't satirical, it's not even sarcastic. It's just normal badmouthing. Something like "Oh yeah, let's stop using SRSes, it's not like it has ever benefited anyone." would have been satirical, but that's not what you wrote.

The point is, I am not being serious when I bad mouth. I honestly really respect this group in general, this is a great collection of bright guys and girls, who have a passion which most people tend to abandon rather too early in their lives.

Yonosa Wrote:

bandwidthjunkie Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:"I would've probably just called you a "tard" in real life.

Ok I get it your about 14, fair enough.

Actually I am 21, I plan to enter Tokyo University for graduate school in a few years, and the prospects of being accepted are actually very good, there is some possibility that I may still frequent this site somewhat at that point and perhaps, I could tell you guys what its like at the Todai.

That's quite interesting, I'm planning to join NASA's first manned mission to Mars and the prospects of being accepted are actually also very good. Perhaps we could keep in touch and share our experiences?

Personally I think you've got a lot of growing up to do and your comments about homosexuals simply demonstrate both your ignorance and immaturity, there is no place in civilised society for language like that; such comments are not funny, nor are they ironic, however they are very offensive. You should be very ashamed of yourself.

Yonosa Wrote:I personally chose to use satire to poke fun, I do that a hell of a lot, purposely and with intent, and often to see what sort of response it will receive, however what I do say is usually based on reasoning, aside from when the topic at hand is obviously not of the sort for reason . I tried to make it obvious that I was doing so, I know I am an intelligent mature guy, and I certainly am more rational than most people. Is this my arrogance showing through in saying this? Well if it were something that you really wanted to test you probably could and would see this.

For the matter of immaturity, arrogance as well for that matter. I often chose precisely how I will come off and almost always when you see my posts consider the responses already considered, I know what it comes off as, I intend it.


What really amazes me however is how the replies tend to always be overly emotional, focusing on the emotional feel of my writing, It is writing, don't assume that I don't understand the sort of emotion I am putting into my writing, rather than focusing on the emotion, realize it is placed there more for style than anything else. Don't take it too seriously, because I use a large amount of satire, and criticism, in my writing, if you would put more of a focus on the points I am making, you would see that I am presenting well reasoned responses, don't attack my writing style as if though that were my real emotions, of course they aren't. It's not as if I read the post which I replied to and WAS RRRRG OH F#*K THIS MOTHERFU@#@R, I could really careless, If I simply stated the reasoning and facts then it would be boring as hell for me to respond, and I probably wouldn't bother typing a response(this is probably a point that would be left open and you could comment on "then you shouldn't have left a reponse"... I see various other places already in what I have wrote that will result in some of you feeling that you must point out my faults, most of the spots in my writing that are like that I am fully aware of that, I often chose to even leave those spots in my writing as well), I hope next time try to see the satire and the obvious intense criticism used and often humor, and don't take it too seriously if it's coming from me, I am not one who wears his emotions on his sleeves as the saying goes, even the emotional part of my posts tend to be selected rather than "felt". Writing is not real feeling, often behavior is not real feeling, so focus on my reasoned statements because they're really the only point of me that is saying anything I really think with you guys, the other stuff is for entertainment value for myself.

SUMMARY, it's satire, calm down, and read what I am saying, I am sure some of the members here who have read a lot of my posts probably figured most of that out by now, as I know a lot of people on here are just having fun and posting too, I posted somewhere else before that when it comes to the facts, "let's keep those real, and with the opinions, let's keep them reasoned".(I didn't say it like that exactly that way, for the FAGGOTS! YEAH I HATE GAYS, who feel like saying you never said that " I never said that" ...GODDAMNED FAGS) NOTE: for the people who nitpick, I am being rude here as a point, Do I hate faggots? eeerm homosexuals?, judge for youself especially for those of you who read the posts I wrote in the "Should Foreign Japanese Demand Full RIghts" post or whatever it was called, before I deleted it, you guys at least know I am even at times too liberal for the mainstream," move towards dissolving all national borders....wait say what?!" Yeah, don't patronize me in a serious manner, I have yet to really do it yo any of you I think.

TOo harsh? TOo honest? probably... but it's the truth.

Actually I am 21, I plan to enter Tokyo University for graduate school in a few years, and the prospects of being accepted are actually very good, there is some possibility that I may still frequent this site somewhat at that point and perhaps, I could tell you guys what its like at the Todai.

Don't take me too seriously though man, I honestly don't take myself that seriously.

BTW for those who said I am too insane with my SRS:
I totally failed my reviews today by the way(Didn't finish them, not near, I have an extra 300 cards on top of the daily 600 for tomorrow) also I didn't add a single card(however I did look over some fun stuff about culture shock in Asia, I figure finding out information about that before I go is probably just as important as finishing my reviews for today, plus it's a hell of a lot more fun(IN ENGLISH TOO!)), I'm human too chiefs. I just try my best to get shit done while the motivation is there, I find that if I and this might only be so in my case. If I don't obsess while the motivation is there than the motivation dies pretty fast, but if I obsess and get a ton done, and then I burn out a bit, then I go and watch my favorite drama or something and I can tell I learned a lot more from my last obsession phase, and it gives me enough motivation for another obsession phase, I tend to repeat that cycle, more so than just do my work like a robot, I just make sure the obsessive phase lasts longer than the down phase, and that the down phase is used to feed motivation.

Todai and going to Mars? Ok....Both are possible I suppose.

No, the thing is I am an adult, but I find adult society distasteful, in the expectations that when we become I don't know what the age is now 19, 20, maybe 22, we must learn to be completely oversensitive to remarks that break our folkways. I don't hate gays, and I won't make the lame I have gay friends, excuse, I do know some lesbians from my old high school that I was cool with but never really friends. I support gay marriage as a matter of fact, and I think it is ridiculous the statements many make in opposition to it. But the fact it I am trying to show the discomfort people show when folkways are broken " Like didn't you know ! the gays came out and had a rainbow parade you can't make fun of them anymore, this like from 20 years ago where are you from!?", and once again I received another emotional post. You don't get the point at all do you? Why am I going to Asia? I want to experience new things I want to show myself a new culture, there is a lot of discomfort associated with that. There is so much discomfort and ignorance that most westeners would never travel to Asia, EVER!

Get with it, soon the world will change again and not only will people be tolerant of other races and sexes, they will have far fewer discomforts.

Insult time: Lighten up you poor bastard, You didn't know my feelings on homosexuals before I just stated them, so stop the belief just because someone says something apparent ignorant of racist, sexist, anti-homo, doesn't signify their true feelings, and realize that sometimes they're just doing it for a reaction, call it immaturity, but acting ridiculous in an adult environment and watching the reactions is quite refreshing, Perhaps a less one side remark would've been better in retrospect, because that is a bit rude even though I am trying to make a point.

I was planning to response to it and as I was reading more and more I discovered, IT'S UTTER CRAP! And I just NEEEEEED to wipe my a$$ with it.
Can't believe I wasted 5 minutes! Even doing some しこしこ would've been better, give me back my 5 min!

Yonosa Wrote:I am an extreme bastard

Well at least he admits it

You quoted that large box of text just to insult the guy. Save forum space, use ellipses.

haha, It's true that I am not serious at the least.

But I just realized, we ALL KEEP DOING THE SAME THING!
I really think IceCream was on it, when she said that we are all misunderstanding and therefore always disagreeing, I honestly believe that most of us here would probably be friends if we met in real life I think, haha.

Perhaps a waste of time to try and explain that I honestly am not trying to insult anyone?, And let alone doing it on 0 sleep and with 400 reviews sitting in my review box and tears nearly falling from my eyes! TODAY IS NOT GOOD! PROCRASTINATED TOO MUCH!, well yeah... so much for that.


いい方法を思い付いた！

I just won't use insults anymore at all, to save explanation time!

Yonosa Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:yonosa, the thing is, we don't know you, we don't know what kind of style you have in real life. In real life it might be obvious that you don't really think that. It's not about breaking conventions, things just aren't as clear on the internet in general. So you have to consider a bit more what the most likely interpretation people are going to give to you're words.

Yeah that's true, because I'm just saying don't get me wrong guys! I am an extreme bastard, but It seems a lot more condensed when I type so perhaps it's a bit offputting! OOPS! HAHA

This is good practice for when you enter what ever career field you choose. Even if you don't intend for things to be taken in an offensive way, it is not wise to make jokes using language people are known to be sensitive to. Here, you just get labeled a child. In the real world, a lawsuit weary company will send you back on the job hunting trail as you try to explain why you got fired from your last job.

What do you guys do that has inputting take hours? For me, inputting sentences has always been that quick part where you just copy-paste lines into anki and check over the automatic reading generation - but my cards only consist of a kanji side and reading side anyway. Is the massive amount of time a result of dictionary diving for SRSable definitions?

Genuine curiosity, not being an ass, blah blah, internet disclaimer, etc.

bodhisamaya Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:yonosa, the thing is, we don't know you, we don't know what kind of style you have in real life. In real life it might be obvious that you don't really think that. It's not about breaking conventions, things just aren't as clear on the internet in general. So you have to consider a bit more what the most likely interpretation people are going to give to you're words.

Yeah that's true, because I'm just saying don't get me wrong guys! I am an extreme bastard, but It seems a lot more condensed when I type so perhaps it's a bit offputting! OOPS! HAHA

This is good practice for when you enter what ever career field you choose. Even if you don't intend for things to be taken in an offensive way, it is not wise to make jokes using language people are known to be sensitive to. Here, you just get labeled a child. In the real world, a lawsuit weary company will send you back on the job hunting trail as you try to explain why you got fired from your last job.

Luckly I won't be doing any of that IRL or online Anymore, I've decided no more insults to save myself explanation response time, I think it is an overall good policy because it is too easy to be misunderstood on the internet, and because My review are a bist bad right now. I'm gonna crash now and try to play catch up tomorrow,(around 900 reviews! that's a good day of solid reviewing!(!>_<!)