Hi, not sure which forum to post this on so thought I'd try here.

I've started doing a regular weekly language swap with a native Japanese student, to improve my Japanese speaking and vocab. Basically I speak bad Japanese at her for an hour, and then we speak in English for another hour.

My partner is very advanced at English vocab and grammar and is doing the swap to improve her conversational ability and accent. To be honest her Japanese accent is fairly strong, and although I can understand everything she is very embarrassed that her workmates are always asking her to repeat herself.

It is my job to get her speaking like a native British person. Problem is, I've no idea how?! She has serious problems differentiating between L and R sounds (Rory, Lorry and Lolly all sound exactly the same). Also she seems to mix up W and V, and N and TH sounds are weak.

Does anyone know how I can help a native Japanese person with their accent? I've found a few good videos on youtube, but it's quite hard to explain the concepts in real life. Maybe I should give her an "All English all the Time" program to follow? Anyone have any experience with this?

Make her listen to stuff in English. Judging from my experience with Japanese, your accent will slowly improve if you just listen enough.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:Make her listen to stuff in English. Judging from my experience with Japanese, your accent will slowly improve if you just listen enough.

She listens to large amounts of native English (which is why her grammar's so good). She says she downloads BBC News podcasts and shadows them, but not sure how regularly she does this.

Just seems like her mouth isn't making the correct movements for the sounds to come out; not sure if this is true of all Japanese, but her mouth is very closed when she talks.

Also is exposure really the key? My Japanese teacher has lived here 10 years and she still mixes up L and R sounds. I think this something that has to be working on consciously..?

aphasiac Wrote:Hi, not sure which forum to post this on so thought I'd try here.

I've started doing a regular weekly language swap with a native Japanese student, to improve my Japanese speaking and vocab. Basically I speak bad Japanese at her for an hour, and then we speak in English for another hour.

My partner is very advanced at English vocab and grammar and is doing the swap to improve her conversational ability and accent. To be honest her Japanese accent is quite strong, and although I can understand everything, she is very embarrassed that people work people are always asking her to repeat herself.

It is my job to get her speaking like a native British person. Problem is, I've no idea how?! She has serious problems differentiating between L and R sounds (Rory, Lorry and Lolly all sound exactly the same). Also she seems to mix up W and V, and N and TH sounds are weak.

Does anyone know how I can help a native Japanese person with their accent? I've found a few good videos on youtube, but it's quite hard to explain the concepts in real life. Maybe I should give her an "All English all the Time" program to follow? Anyone have any experience with this?

Try explaining how to make those sounds and practise together with her. For example if needed to pronouce a specific sound, first you need to know how that sound is made yourself (eg. placement of the tongue etc.) and them carefully explain it to her. You can draw a drawing to make it even more clearer. And then have her pronouce certain words using it and similar words to understand the difference.
The L and R is indeed rather difficult for Japanese people to differentiate, but they clearly are pronounced with different techniques. The L sound (as in Lorry or lolly) taps the palate whereas the R doesn't and kinda 'hangs' in midair.
Also W and V are quite easy to explain to. I always explain it as V seems like blowing a little bit of air out and W words having a microscopic 'u' sound in front.
If you want to explain it correctly to her first you need to understand how that sound it made yourself.
Hope that helped.

aphasiac Wrote:Just seems like her mouth isn't making the correct movements for the sounds to come out; not sure if this is true of all Japanese, but her mouth is very closed when she talks.

Also is exposure really the key? My Japanese teacher has lived here 10 years and she still mixes up L and R sounds. I think this something that has to be working on consciously..?

So it's your job to have her make the correct mouth movements And while listening to lot's of English might be good to hear the sound and try to mimick it, the way to prononce it might be alien to her so she needs some help getting a better understanding HOW that sound is actually produced.

It worked for my Japanese, so... Not that it's perfect already, for from that. However, I slowly started to adopt a pretty nativelike accent without even trying. I just leave my television running all day. The thing is, it takes time. And it takes quite some self-confidence aswell, at least for me. If I'm too nervous I sound like shit.

If listening just does not work for her, ask her to record her own voice. If she listens to lots of English she probably knows how she should sound like. Maybe listening to her own voice makes her realize her weak point(s).. so she can attack it/them for massive damage!

Evil_Dragon Wrote:It worked for my Japanese, so... Not that it's perfect already, for from that. However, I slowly started to adopt a pretty nativelike accent without even trying. I just leave my television running all day. The thing is, it takes time. And it takes quite some self-confidence aswell, at least for me. If I'm too nervous I sound like shit.

If listening just does not work for her, ask her to record her own voice. If she listens to lots of English she probably knows how she should sound like. Maybe listening to her own voice makes her realize her weak point(s).. so she can attack it/them for massive damage!

It's much more easier for an English speaker to create Japanese sounds than a Japanese pronouncing English sounds simply because Japanese has less twists and turns and it very err...staccato

Musashi Wrote:It's much more easier for an English speaker to create Japanese sounds than a Japanese pronouncing English sounds simply because Japanese has less twists and turns and it very err...staccato

I'm German, so it's probably even easier for me. :-P

But my point is, even if it takes a long time, it will eventually happen. It's hard to hold out until then, but if all you have to do is be a couch potato,...

As for Japanese people learning English... Most of those I met who sounded pretty natural (at least to my ear) have spent one year or more in an English speaking country. Chances are they did their fair share of listening.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:It's much more easier for an English speaker to create Japanese sounds than a Japanese pronouncing English sounds simply because Japanese has less twists and turns and it very err...staccato

I'm German, so it's probably even easier for me. :-P

But my point is, even if it takes a long time, it will eventually happen. It's hard to hold out until then, but if all you have to do is be a couch potato,...

As for Japanese people learning English... Most of those I met who sounded pretty natural (at least to my ear) have spent one year or more in an English speaking country. Chances are they did their fair share of listening.

I heard it's even easier for Dutch people, richtig no? (oh gosh my German has been given back to school)

Or try replacing your tongue with hers , I mean since we're all in a sexual mood these days what with the 16+ page thread on it and all

Musashi Wrote:I heard it's even easier for Dutch people, richtig no? (oh gosh my German has been given back to school)

The only Dutch guy in Japan I know is pretty good (better than me for sure). You can tell that he's Dutch, but overall he sounds natural. So go for it..!

Anyway, I believe anybody who listens to his target language for a sufficient amount of time will be able to adopt a natural accent. Regardless of nationality.

Except Basque people of course[/cheap Khatz ripoff]

liosama Wrote:Or try replacing your tongue with hers , I mean since we're all in a sexual mood these days what with the 16+ page thread on it and all

Nice try trolling. Don't derail the thread pls, leave it in the messed up thread.
*you get sexual from a forum thread?? :O

The problems you indicate are typical for Japanese speakers of English.

A lot of pronunciation is mechanical, getting the mouth to do what the brain is telling it to do. For adults it comes down to a lot of practice, although to be honest most adults with poor pronunciation stay that way. Listening more isn't going to do a whole lot for your student at this point.

I would recommend starting with lots of minimal pairs practice followed with short conversations that feature many instances of the target sounds. It can get a little boring but it is effective. Cambridge University Press, Ship or Sheep does this. There is something free online for it but it doesn't have the conversations (I don't think).

I also highly recommend Judy Gilbert's books Clear Speech and Clear Speech from the Start.

Your student isn't going to sound like a native speaker any time soon. I'd bet a sizable sum that she never will. However, with considerable practice she will be able to remedy problems with the sounds that are interfering with her communication with her co-workers and others.

However, it is worth bearing in mind that many native speakers with little or no exposure to variations of English pronunciation have remarkably little flexibility in interpreting deviant sounds and part of your student's problems are likely due to that as much as to her specific pronunciation issues.

I don't know about "British" English, but there seem to be so many things to learn when it comes to pronunciation it's almost impossible for Japanese learners to master speaking/listening skills by following only one method. Probably teaching all kinds of phonetic things including allophones while doing AEATT is the best for most adult learners.

As for "l" and "r" sounds, I think most of the time that's because teachers don't teach them properly and delude students into thinking, for example, "r" is easier than "l".

For instance, it's good to learn the difference between "voiced sound" and "unvoiced sound" from teachers, and it'll help pronounce pairs of sounds such as "v (voiced)" and "f (unvoiced)." But because Japanese doesn't have the "r" sound, it's really difficult to notice the difference between "r"s in "ray (voiced)" and "pray (unvoiced)" even if you tell her there is a "slight" difference (I don't know if British English has the unvoiced "r" though). Native speakers may think it's unimportant because they're just allophones, but these two "r"s sound quite different to monolingual Japanese; "ray" part in "pray" doesn't sound like "ray" at all. Of course, "pray" and "play" are difficult to differentiate, but that's not just because the Japanese language doesn't have "l". If you don't understand how much different they would sound to her, it might be possible you end up making her believe she can pronounce/hear "pray" properly if she only learns "r" and "l" in "ray" and "lay," which is totally misleading. AEATT may be able to fix this problem if she keeps listening to English 24/7, but if a bad teacher gives a false impression of "r", it might take, say, more than 10 years.

This "r" thing might be kind of an obvious example, but there are a lot of obstacles that may not be obvious to native English speakers. Actually it doesn't seem your average teacher understands why "sentence" is difficult for the Japanese to hear/pronounce; the slight "t" sound that sometimes occurs between "n" and "ce" in "sentence" isn't slight at all if your mother tongue is Japanese. If you pronounce it quickly and "t" between "n" and "e" becomes something like "tt" in "kitten," then the actual sound you say and the sound of the word "sentence" she expects are completely different.

I think teachers should teach differences students think are huge. I guess it's detrimental to say they're pretty much the same because native speakers feel so.

Here's a way to teach pronunciation, but it only works with students who won't be really off-put or embarrassed by it. Take a sentence that the person has said, but which has a pronunciation problem. Repeat the sentence for the person with correct pronunciation. Have the student repeat it. If the student gets it wrong, say it again, and have the student repeat it. If the student continues to get it wrong, explain exactly what the student is doing wrong. If necessary, explain how the student should be moving their mouth to make the particular sound that is a problem (if a little research is done you can find pictures and ways of teaching this). Do not movie on until the student has pronounced it correctly at least once.

If you do this from when a person starts learning a language, they actually sound like native speakers with sentences they're comfortable with, and it was popular in some teaching methods in the 1970s. It has basically been dumped because it takes a long time, and teachers decided that more time should be spent being able to communicate rather than being able sound really good. But since this person can already formulate sentences, this might be a good method to improve pronunciation. It's pretty painstaking, but it works quite well.

You can't do it with every sentence or you'll both get fed up with it, but doing it with 5-8 sentences in the hour of conversation shouldn't be too bad. Concentrate on sentences that are particularly different from native pronunciation.

maybe trying to listen to some songs and singing them might help, that's how my wife got her accent... or you could just grab her jaw and move it the right way

There is definately a difference between the sounds we actually make and the sounds we think we are saying. For example, native English speakers read 'ed' in the past tense of verbs and think they are making a d sound, when in reality about half the time it's pronounced as a t sound:

bowed (d)
rowed (d)
walked (t)
talked (t)

I don't think this subtlety has to be specifically learnt though. The moment you start speaking at a fluent speed, these subtleties should take care of themselves. If they don't it's probably because you've started speaking too soon (before reaching any degree of effortlessness) and have thus aqcuired (through practice) an ability native speakers themselves don't possess. Try reading the following sentences at a normal speed, pronouncing the 'ed' as a d sound:
I bowed to the gentleman.
I rowed a boat down the stream.
I walked into the kitchen.
I talked to Tom on the phone.
It should become clear, that the the pronounciation of the 'ed' changes and is perhaps dependant on context. The thing is native speakers aren't even aware of this, let alone think about it consciously when speaking. They don't have the time, and it has no bearing on the meaning of what they're saying.

aphasiac Wrote:Does anyone know how I can help a native Japanese person with their accent? I've found a few good videos on youtube, but it's quite hard to explain the concepts in real life. Maybe I should give her an "All English all the Time" program to follow? Anyone have any experience with this?

Have you tried correcting every mistake? I know it gets tiresome for both parties, but letting some mistakes slide while fixing others will reinforce the sliders.

Also, have you seen LiveMocha? It has the ability to record your voice and let others hear it. They can then correct you. Random strangers can be a lot harsher critics than friends without worrying about hurt feelings so much.

aphasiac Wrote:Does anyone know how I can help a native Japanese person with their accent? I've found a few good videos on youtube, but it's quite hard to explain the concepts in real life. Maybe I should give her an "All English all the Time" program to follow? Anyone have any experience with this?

Well I'm not sure about "All English All the Time", but I've heard from any number of sources that pillow-talk is an excellent and enjoyable way to learn any language. Good luck!

Musashi Wrote:

liosama Wrote:Or try replacing your tongue with hers , I mean since we're all in a sexual mood these days what with the 16+ page thread on it and all

Nice try trolling. Don't derail the thread pls, leave it in the messed up thread.
*you get sexual from a forum thread?? :O

How on earth is that a troll?, it's a joke.

What I find most ironic is that you were the one to jump against Nukemarine for calling your posts trolls, yet you use the term so freely here.

It was a joke, first the indicates a wink - In internet language that implies usually a sarcastic remark or something of the sort.
Also, the also implies a sarcastic/joke sort of post.

Although I don't really have to, for your sake I will since you have trouble understanding English, I shall explain to you what I mean. My post was to lighten up the mood of the thread as others do occasionally in other threads. You don't have to take the tongue replacing literally, of course that's where the joke was, so I threw it in as I thought it may get a giggle or two.


Gosh you give a real bad impression of yourself. Learn to respect other forum members.


So once again musashi, calm down.

liosama Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:

liosama Wrote:Or try replacing your tongue with hers , I mean since we're all in a sexual mood these days what with the 16+ page thread on it and all

Nice try trolling. Don't derail the thread pls, leave it in the messed up thread.
*you get sexual from a forum thread?? :O

How on earth is that a troll?, it's a joke.

What I find most ironic is that you were the one to jump against Nukemarine for calling your posts trolls, yet you use the term so freely here.

So are you here to confine me and I can't use the word troll? I was saying not to continue that thread here too since it got ugly. And it was a lousy joke btw.

liosama Wrote:Although I don't really have to, for your sake I will since you have trouble understanding English, I shall explain to you what I mean.

And yet what language are we communicating in? Yeah my English is really 'bad' at least I'm speaking your language, I don't see you doing the same thing in mine.

liosama Wrote:Gosh you give a real bad impression of yourself. Learn to respect other forum members.

That's the last thing I need from you.

Now let's get back to the topic shall we?

aphasiac,

The first step is for her to get "perfect" (or at least very good) listening. Even as native speakers we don't have perfect listening and some people will be better at it than others, but unless it is really hard to hear something or the speaker has a really strong accent we can all pick out exactly what is being said. We can also do this regardless of whether there is a word we have never heard before.

She can get a lot of listening practice just listening to random stuff, but even better I recommend choosing something that is a bit hard for her and listening to it over and over. Each time she listens to it she will catch a little bit more. She should continue until she can catch everything.

Then, she should read it out aloud in a loud voice. She needs to get used to hearing how her English sounds. She should also record her voice and then compare it against the original noting any differences, then try again. Once she has it down or has noticed a significant improvement, she should choose something new and repeat.

I think shadowing is more useful for intonation, not pronunciation of individual sounds.

Her listening is definitely the first step, but it can be useful to pronounce the sounds with her. Don't focus on whole words at first, try and get her just saying the basic sound. So lllllllllllllllllllllll and rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Try and help her until she is making the same sound as you are. You can't really show r, but you can show the l concept by pushing you tongue right out of your mouth, but still hooked under your upper teeth.

Like others have said, concepts of voiced and unvoiced should also be useful. For example the only difference between the F and the V sound is F is unvoiced and V is voiced. So f is just blowing aid with your teeth on your lip. There is also a TH sound which is voiced (this) and one that is unvoiced (thistle). It is also probably worth learning the English phonemes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_pro...n#Phonemes

Other useful things you can do is point out when her pronunciation is bad. Probably sometimes she is doing it ok and sometimes not it's good to let her know when something is below her current standard. This will help her realise what is good and bad.

You should also make her aware of linking. That is how we connect words together when we speak, for example we don't say "I have an apple" we say "I ha va napple". There are complex rules for how we do this which are not worth learning, but it is good to be aware of.

I recommend http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...n-japanese over an All English All The Time style, since it has a big focus on listening and pronunciation and includes a lot of the things I have said here.

magamo Wrote:I think teachers should teach differences students think are huge. I guess it's detrimental to say they're pretty much the same because native speakers feel so.

magamo
I read your post with great interest. As a native Japanese, you have insight about the difficulties Japanese have with English that most of us as English speakers lack. You said teachers should teach differences students think are huge--can you think of other areas of English pronunication that cause Japanese students difficulty which native teachers don't recognize?

nadiatims Wrote:There is definately a difference between the sounds we actually make and the sounds we think we are saying. For example, native English speakers read 'ed' in the past tense of verbs and think they are making a d sound, when in reality about half the time it's pronounced as a t sound:

bowed (d)
rowed (d)
walked (t)
talked (t)

I believe the pronunciation of (d) or (t) when adding 'ed' in a single syllable word is dependent on the final consonant/vowel sound of the word. When single syllable words end in a voiced consonant or vowel (like in bow or row, play, etc.), the 'ed' is also voiced ('d' sound). When single syllable words end in an unvoiced consonant (like in walk, talk, jump, hop), the 'ed' is also unvoiced ('t' sound).

You are right; we as native speakers are not taught this explicitly in school so we are usually not aware of the sound changes we are making. For that reason, we often have a difficult time teaching them to second language learners.

kioku3 Wrote:can you think of other areas of English pronunication that cause Japanese students difficulty which native teachers don't recognize?

I really don't know about British English... But about notorious "r" vs. "l", it seems Americans/Canadians think "l"s in "leaf" and "will" are similar in some way. The former is more like the consonant used in Japanese ら while the latter sounds like the vowel う. "l" is also confusing when it follows certain vowels. For example, "ul" in "ultimate" sounds like おー, and I think it's quite hard to hear "l".

There are tons of sounds that may confuse the Japanese other than "l" and "r". For example, different people pronounce "e" in "economy" in different ways, and it seems even the same person can use different sounds. Another example is "h" in words like "her." When it is said after the "y" sound, it often sounds as if the two are sort of merged, so phrases like "by herself" and "by yourself" sound exactly the same.

These kinds of differences are too many, but among others, obviously the slight difference between "f" and "v" (not voiced vs. non-voiced) isn't noticed by native speakers. Actually thermal said

thermal Wrote:For example the only difference between the F and the V sound is F is unvoiced and V is voiced.

but this is not true. It's hard to explain, but "v" is not exactly the same as voiced "f" when used in a sentence, and I guess this has something to do with the confusion between "v" and "b".

magamo Wrote:

thermal Wrote:For example the only difference between the F and the V sound is F is unvoiced and V is voiced.

but this is not true. It's hard to explain, but "v" is not exactly the same as voiced "f" when used in a sentence, and I guess this has something to do with the confusion between "v" and "b".

Hmm, can you give an example of 2 sentences where they are different? They may be very slight differences, but I think they are almost exactly the same. I test this by saying "of" and "off" over and over and seeing if they feel different. They also may link differently in certain situations, but AFAIK this is not the case.

I think the reason Japanese people tend to confuse V and B rather than F and V is because they can pick the difference between voiced and unvoiced. They are used to doing this (to a certain degree) with フ/プ and ブ and . However, there is no similar comparison for V and B which are both voiced. Anyway, just my thoughts.

thermal Wrote:Hmm, can you give an example of 2 sentences where they are different? They may be very slight differences, but I think they are almost exactly the same. I test this by saying "of" and "off" over and over and seeing if they feel different. They also may link differently in certain situations, but AFAIK this is not the case.

I think the reason Japanese people tend to confuse V and B rather than F and V is because they can pick the difference between voiced and unvoiced. They are used to doing this (to a certain degree) with フ/プ and ブ and . However, there is no similar comparison for V and B which are both voiced. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Like I said, it doesn't matter if native English speakers think they're the same. What matters is how Japanese learners perceive phonemes. I'm no expert on this and not familiar with technical terms, so forgive me if my explanation is amateurish and unclear. Also, I will use IPA symbols so you might need to install some fonts if you can't read some characters.

As I already posted somewhere on this forum, the Japanese は-series has three different consonants: は, へ, ほ = [h], ひ = [ç], ふ = [ɸ]. Also, Japanese ぱ-series has two consonants: [p] (ぱ, ぷ, ぺ, ぽ) and [pʲ] (ぴ). The Japanese ば-series has four consonants [b], [bʲ], [β], and [βʲ]. As you can see, phonetically the Japanese は-series has nothing to do with ば-series or ぱ-series except for when vowel う follows. Phonetically speaking, ば is not the voiced version of は. It's the voiced ぱ. But grammatically speaking, ば is a voiced は in the Japanese language. For example, 版 (はん) can be ばん if the 連濁 rule holds, e.g., 日本語版 is pronounced にほんごばん, not にほんごはん. Actually, to native Japanese speakers, ば (ba) sounds as if it is the voiced version of は (ha), which is grammatically true but phonetically wrong.

I said there are three consonants in the は-series, but in reality native Japanese speakers don't consider they're different. It's like monolingual English speakers think "t"s in "top" and "stop" are the same; they sound clearly different to people who speak certain foreign languages.

So, if a teacher doesn't know the difference between "grammatically voiced" and "phonetically voiced" in Japanese or the fact that Japanese ears consider [h], [ç], and [ɸ] are the same, he might say to his students, "'v' is the voiced version of 'f', and there is no difference other than voiceness." This is true, to the teacher. He never knows why his students think "Ok. Then, if I unvoice 'very,' I'd get 'ferry,' right? But hey, I got 'herry.' Why? I'm pretty sure I unvoiced it properly. Well, my pronunciation of 'very' might have been wrong in the first place. All right, I'll try and get the voiced version of 'ferry' so I can get proper 'very.' ... hey, I only get 'berry.' It's not 'very.' What's going on here?"

Why does the student get "herry" by unvoicing "very"? I think that's because his ear considers "ve" a grammatically voiced "he." Why does the student get "berry" by voicing "ferry"? I think that's because he grammatically voiced "fe."

Now if the student tries to turn "food" into a voiced version to pronounce "voodoo," then he may get a phonetically voiced version of it because the "oo" sound is somehow similar to う; coincidentally ふ and ぶ has a phonetic connection to some extent.

I guess the degree of the perceived difference between "f" and "v" varies greatly depending on students' phonetic proficiency. Actually the concept of "consonant" is kind of wtf for beginners in the first place because the Japanese language is mora based and doesn't separate a mora into a consonant and a vowel.

I know you can't understand how much different "f" and "v" are to native Japanese speakers, and I'm sure you never notice the difference no matter how many times you compare "off" and "of." Probably the actual difference is almost nil if measured by a machine. But I think the difference is huge for Japanese students, and I guess this discrepancy stems, at least partially, from the phonetic complexity of は, ば, ぱ-series and existence of "grammatically voiced/unvoiced." So if a student doesn't know grammatical voiceness in the Japanese language, his conscious mind may not be able to notice the difference his brain is noticing.

Of course, this brain-only difference stems from the Japanese grammar and the sound system, so it's kind of an illusion, i.e., there may not be any physical difference. But in my opinion explaining that there is no difference doesn't help at all because the student's conscious mind can't notice the illusion either.

Don't quote me on this, though. I'm no expert. But I believe everyone who went AEATT/AJATT has experienced this kind of huge difference that even our conscious mind can't notice. If there is no physical difference, then the situation is even worse, I think.