Aijin Wrote:Same thing applies when you use it as the subject of a relative clause.

Or, if you replace 'considers' with a synonymous verb, you also get a logical sentence:
"Native Japanese speakers don't think that they're different"
"Native Japanese speakers don't think they're different"
"Native Japanese speakers don't consider that they're different"
"Native Japanese speakers don't consider they're different"

All are correct.

I think the problem that is arising is that quite simply, when you're accustomed to hearing a different construction pattern in language, Broadmann area 44, the inferior lateral cortex becomes activated. This is more or less what produces our sensation of hearing dissonance in language. Even if something is grammatically correct, if it's not a construction that we're most used to, we biologically feel that "wrong" feeling. People who are used to hearing "I'm good" rather than "I'm well" will often feel that same neurological response of something being incorrect, even though it is correct, simply because it's not what their minds are accustomed to, and it contradicts the pattern they're familiar with.

I think there's also the notion of 'filling the gaps' which the brain does automatically and subconsciously. The bottom two sentences for me don't sound right. (The native Japanese speaker does not consider himself to be different?) I don't know..
As for the above two, I think depending on the context on which sentence is appropriate of the two my brain will fill in the 'that' if for some reason it sounds better.

This just an off the top of my head guess at how the brain functions with patterns. I notice it all the time when my friends speak to me in horrid grammar (and me to them too), we all understand each other perfectly because of this fill in the gap process.

On the subject of grammar:

Shouldn't the topic be something like "Helping Japanese students eliminate their accent?"

I know that 'their' is now used instead of 'his/her,' but the topic's title still feels off to me.

Hey. I love 'they' as a gender ambiguous singular pronoun.

There are some great replies and interesting advice here; thanks so much people!! Keep it coming!!

Thank you all for helping me improve my English grammar. I didn't want to derail this thread further so I kept quiet, but I guess it's ok now to say thanks here.

By the way, I deliberately avoided "consider" in this post to see if I can express myself without using the word. Maybe I don't need the word? Also, I kind of know why I make stupid errors when using "easy" words. But obviously this isn't the right place to discuss it, I think.

Anyway, one thing I am certain is that I have Aijin on my side!

I'm trying to think when the last time i actually used it in everyday conversation. Its an important word to know, but definatly avoid over using it, it can sound pretentious depending on context.

Infact the times i can think i use it are for sarcastical purposes at work..

It's under consideration. (Meaning no)
I'll consider it. (No i won't)

I consider it a daily-use word.

I didn't really consider it that way, maybe i don't live in a very considerate town. (differant usage but what the hell...)

Aijin Wrote:Why would you need to use the objective case for 'consider'? I understand why it sounds unnatural in the other constructions, and I agree, but I'd need some evidence that 'consider' requires the objective cause for it to be grammatically correct (because I am difficult like that)

I looked it up. It seems that with certain main clause verbs, the embedded subject pronoun requires an object case. (Verbs like saw, heard, prove, believe, etc.) It’s called an ECM (Exceptional case marking) construction. “The verb in the main clause is said to exceptionally assign the accusative case it can give to its own direct object to the subject in the embedded clause instead.”

This was traditionally called, “after its Latin equivalent, the accusativus cum infinitivo, or a.c.i. This name indicates that the morphological form of the subject in the infinitival clause is unexpected for a subject. In Latin, this subject has case morphology that is usually reserved for direct objects, so-called accusative case (rather than the case normally showing up on subjects, the nominative case). Although English has lost the morphological case system it had in older stages of the language, we can still see a remnant of this when the subject of an a.c.i. clause is a pronoun, as this pronoun shows up in object form rather than subject form.” (There are apparently alternative grammar theories for why this happens.)

I'll try to set out how this applies to the grammar point in this thread. Grammar ain’t my thing … so substitute whatever alternative grammar labels you prefer.

Some verbs can take a complete embedded clause as their object/ complement. Here, the object of the main clause is [Mark is a student]. This complement clause has its own subject and finite verb.

I think [Mark is a student].
I think [he is a student]. (clause subject pronoun takes nominative case)
I think [that Mark is a student].

Some verbs can take a reduced clause as their object complement or clause with a non-finite verb (such as the infinitive verb "to be".) This thread has been discussing one particular type of 'non-finite complement clause' which is the ECM construction.

We consider [Susan a good candidate].
We consider [Susan to be a good candidate].

We can paraphrase this sentence by using “that” + a complete finite clause:

We consider [that Susan is a good candidate].

But if we remove “that”, then the "is" changes to "to be" and the embedded clause becomes a non-finite clause with these types of verbs. So it is not correct to say: We consider [Susan is a good candidate].

“Susan” is the subject of the embedded clause. “Susan” alone is not the object of the main verb - we aren’t considering “Susan”, we are considering [Susan to be a good candidate]. Despite this, Susan’s pronoun form takes the accusative (object) case in these types of sentences:

We consider [her a good candidate].
We consider [her to be a good candidate].

Also, the following sentence is also correct:

We consider [Susan as a good candidate].

The embedded clause has its own subject (Susan) and complement (a good candidate). We can use “as” when the complement is a nominal complement.

I consider him a friend.
I consider him as a friend.

I took that to mean it works for nouns only. So we might say “I consider her pretty”, but not “I consider her as pretty.” but who knows.

I hope that’s useful. I wanted to thank Aijin and Magamo (and Masaman) again for their invaluable contributions here.

To Magamo: Don’t worry, I wouldn’t consider this stuff "easy". Most native speakers survive on 'gut feel' and have to look up specific grammar points if asked. btw - I'd keep 'consider' in your repertoire.

Thora Wrote:

Aijin Wrote:Why would you need to use the objective case for 'consider'? I understand why it sounds unnatural in the other constructions, and I agree, but I'd need some evidence that 'consider' requires the objective cause for it to be grammatically correct (because I am difficult like that)

I looked it up. It seems that with certain main clause verbs, the embedded subject pronoun requires an object case. (Verbs like saw, heard, prove, believe, etc.) It’s called an ECM (Exceptional case marking) construction. “The verb in the main clause is said to exceptionally assign the accusative case it can give to its own direct object to the subject in the embedded clause instead.”

hahahahaha S: I'm a native english speaker and I didnt understand a word of that. Makes my brain shit itself. Just goes to show, you don't need to learn grammar to be able to perfectly use and understand the word "consider" which isn't too hard considering it's a fairly easy one

QuackingShoe Wrote:Hey. I love 'they' as a gender ambiguous singular pronoun.

Wouldn't removing the "a" and putting an "s" at the end of students sound a bit better, though.

Verbs regency is a very polemic subject.
Sometimes it changes with the meaning of the verb. It also occurs very often in Portuguese.

Direct objetive case:
Eu assisto ao filme. I _watch_ the movie.

Indirect objetive case:
Eu assisto o meu amigo. I _help_ my friend.

ropsta Wrote:Wouldn't removing the "a" and putting an "s" at the end of students sound a bit better, though.

No, because only one specific student was being talked about in the OP.

QuackingShoe Wrote:

ropsta Wrote:Wouldn't removing the "a" and putting an "s" at the end of students sound a bit better, though.

No, because only one specific student was being talked about in the OP.

True. He also used 'her' in the post, so using 'her' in the title would make even more sense. I think the plural would just make a better title overall, though.

@Thora

Thank you for the great explanation. My intuition often fails me, especially when I have to resort to words/phrases/grammar rules I learned at school. It's really annoying...