http://news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye4183865.html

In the video for this news article the announcer says ひとふさ for 1房 (one bundle) and ひとつぶ for 1粒 (one grape). Is there a rule behind when you use いち and when you use ひと, or could either be used?

Amset Wrote:http://news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye4183865.html

In the video for this news article the announcer says ひとふさ for 1房 (one bundle) and ひとつぶ for 1粒 (one grape). Is there a rule behind when you use いち and when you use ひと, or could either be used?

Nope, as far as I know, you just have to learn it the hard way by memorizing each.
While most counting things use いち (いっぽん、いっぴき、いちじ etc.), some also use ひと.
And only one can be used. (rarely can you use both and depends on the situation)

dang

One indicator could be the presence kunyomi or onyomi. If I am not mistaken, a given word should not mix the two. So from this you would derive the sound ひと instead of いち if you knew the counter was ふさ, since ふさ is the kunyomi of 房.

dat5h, actually some words do mix kun and on yomi. I can't give you an example right now, but on the kanji kentei there are a bunch of questions where you are given a 2 compound word and you need to choose if the reading is kun kun, kun on, on kun or on on, so they definitely do exist but are probably rare. Counters may not mix them up though.

I think the trend is if the counter has a soft sound, it is ひと. Particularly if it has ten ten it tends to be いち. It's just easier to say this way.

ひとつ
ひと皿
ひと組

いっ本
いち台
いっ回
いち度
いっ匹

thermal Wrote:dat5h, actually some words do mix kun and on yomi. I can't give you an example right now, but on the kanji kentei there are a bunch of questions where you are given a 2 compound word and you need to choose if the reading is kun kun, kun on, on kun or on on, so they definitely do exist but are probably rare. Counters may not mix them up though.

NOOOOOOO!!!!

I was thinking it'd be something like what thermal suggested, yeah.

In general, you use ひと when the counter can be used as a word you're counting, and you say いち when the reading of the counter doesn't make sense as a word or means a different thing from what you're counting. For example, 皿 (さら) is a word meaning "dish," so you use ひと if you're counting the number of dishes. 一台 is いちだい because "台 (だい)" means "stand," "rest," "rack," etc and you're not counting those things; the counter is usually used for cars, computers and so on.

"いっ" is actually a modified version of いち. This kind of sound change is called 促音便 in Japanese grammar and very complected, so I only give a rough rule here:

き, ち, り, ひ, く, つ, る, ふ (i.e., "k", "t", "r", "h" with "i" or "u") in the middle of words often become an obstruent "っ" similar to the consonant it precedes (i.e a stop in the case of k, t and p but without the burst, and a fricative in the case of s) when it is followed by k, s, t, or h (p).

So 一本 is いっぽん because 本 (ほん) means a book, which is not what you're counting because this counter is used for pencils and whatnot, and ち is followed by ぽ. Similarly, 一回 is いっかい because 回 (かい) isn't a word in itself, and the counter begins with a "k" sound.

Of course, those rules have exceptions, but I guess it's better than nothing. Also, the 促音便 rule holds for any words, not only numbers and counters. For instance, 作曲 is pronounced さっきょく, not さくきょく (The first く in さくきょく is followed by き which belongs to the k-series, and hence it becomes っ so you say さっきょく).

magamo Wrote:In general, you use ひと when the counter can be used as a word you're counting, and you say いち when the reading of the counter doesn't make sense as a word or means a different thing from what you're counting. For example, 皿 (さら) is a word meaning "dish," so you use ひと if you're counting the number of dishes. 一台 is いちだい because "台 (だい)" means "stand," "rest," "rack," etc and you're not counting those things; the counter is usually used for cars, computers and so on.

"いっ" is actually a modified version of いち. This kind of sound change is called 促音便 in Japanese grammar and very complected, so I only give a rough rule here:

き, ち, り, ひ, く, つ, る, ふ (i.e., "k", "t", "r", "h" with "i" or "u") in the middle of words often become a glottal stop "っ" when it is followed by k, s, t, or h (p).

So 一本 is いっぽん because 本 (ほん) means a book, which is not what you're counting because this counter is used for pencils and whatnot, and ち is followed by ぽ. Similarly, 一回 is いっかい because 回 (かい) isn't a word in itself, and the counter begins with a "k" sound.

Of course, those rules have exceptions, but I guess it's better than nothing. Also, the 促音便 rule holds for any words, not only numbers and counters. For instance, 作曲 is pronounced さっきょく, not さくきょく (The first く in さくきょく is followed by き which belongs to the k-series, and hence it becomes っ so you say さっきょく).

Ah tyvm.

magamo Wrote:In general, you use ひと when the counter can be used as a word you're counting, and you say いち when the reading of the counter doesn't make sense as a word or means a different thing from what you're counting. For example, 皿 (さら) is a word meaning "dish," so you use ひと if you're counting the number of dishes. 一台 is いちだい because "台 (だい)" means "stand," "rest," "rack," etc and you're not counting those things; the counter is usually used for cars, computers and so on.

"いっ" is actually a modified version of いち. This kind of sound change is called 促音便 in Japanese grammar and very complected, so I only give a rough rule here:

き, ち, り, ひ, く, つ, る, ふ (i.e., "k", "t", "r", "h" with "i" or "u") in the middle of words often become a glottal stop "っ" when it is followed by k, s, t, or h (p).

So 一本 is いっぽん because 本 (ほん) means a book, which is not what you're counting because this counter is used for pencils and whatnot, and ち is followed by ぽ. Similarly, 一回 is いっかい because 回 (かい) isn't a word in itself, and the counter begins with a "k" sound.

Of course, those rules have exceptions, but I guess it's better than nothing. Also, the 促音便 rule holds for any words, not only numbers and counters. For instance, 作曲 is pronounced さっきょく, not さくきょく (The first く in さくきょく is followed by き which belongs to the k-series, and hence it becomes っ so you say さっきょく).

Can I copy and paste this to a list on Smart.fm? http://smart.fm/lists/103671

http://hiramatu-hifuka.com/onyak/onyak2/josu-aka.html

I found this list while looking for how to pronounce １０キロ. It's a list of counters, telling you when to use which words.

magamo Wrote:In general, you use ひと when the counter can be used as a word you're counting, and you say いち when the reading of the counter doesn't make sense as a word or means a different thing from what you're counting. For example, 皿 (さら) is a word meaning "dish," so you use ひと if you're counting the number of dishes. 一台 is いちだい because "台 (だい)" means "stand," "rest," "rack," etc and you're not counting those things; the counter is usually used for cars, computers and so on.

"いっ" is actually a modified version of いち. This kind of sound change is called 促音便 in Japanese grammar and very complected, so I only give a rough rule here:

き, ち, り, ひ, く, つ, る, ふ (i.e., "k", "t", "r", "h" with "i" or "u") in the middle of words often become a glottal stop "っ" when it is followed by k, s, t, or h (p).

So 一本 is いっぽん because 本 (ほん) means a book, which is not what you're counting because this counter is used for pencils and whatnot, and ち is followed by ぽ. Similarly, 一回 is いっかい because 回 (かい) isn't a word in itself, and the counter begins with a "k" sound.

Of course, those rules have exceptions, but I guess it's better than nothing. Also, the 促音便 rule holds for any words, not only numbers and counters. For instance, 作曲 is pronounced さっきょく, not さくきょく (The first く in さくきょく is followed by き which belongs to the k-series, and hence it becomes っ so you say さっきょく).

Wow... suddenly it just all makes sense now. Thank you.

I can't believe they don't teach that in Japanese classes. Maybe because there's no way for a learner to know the stand-alone meaning of a newly encountered counter.. but still, it's good to know.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Can I copy and paste this to a list on Smart.fm? http://smart.fm/lists/103671

I don't know how Smart.fm works. But if you find my post useful, I don't see any reason not to. But be warned. I'm not a qualified teacher or anything. I don't consult a grammar either because I don't have any. Sorry for being too lazy to mention "I'm no expert" thing.

Thanks. It was a very informative explanation and should help others. Smart.fm is (primarily) a language learning website where users are encouraged to create their own lesson plans and share them with other students. If you get bored with reading about how to nab a Japanese virgin, you would probably have much to add over there. Though, you seem much too advanced to gain anything from the English courses offered.

Ah, thanks. I always thought Smart.fm was meant for students/learners of Japanese.

Anyway, I took a peek at the site and thought users' learning style was very different from mine. For example, it seems most of the lists for Japanese are J-E bilingual, which I don't recommend. I found a monolingual list for English learners, but I don't think their definitions are very useful. It says "formidable" is "Adjective: difficult; causing worry or fear." I think it's true, but if I were to define the word, it'd be like:

"Hey, it's reeeeealy huge!" in a kind of figurative way. You don't like a formidable task. You don't want to face a formidable enemy either. I'm formidably intelligent and have a formidable reputation. What? This definition is formidably long? Don't use my list then. Oh, by the way, your definition is wrong if my explanation is "formidable" because this is not that long.

My J-J definitions would be like this too, and it doesn't seem Smart.fm users would like it.

I would like to see lists that are J-J as well for learning Japanese. Unfortunately, if they are out there, they remain undiscovered because of the way the search list link works.