I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on this little something that has been bugging me since I started learning kanji. Is there any rule concerning changes in stroke order occuring in certain kanji when they become primitives? For example 3rd and 4rth strokes of 牛 in 特, or hell even the weird 3rd and 4th strokes in 田 as opposed to strokes in 十?

in
牛 vs 特

The 3rd (vertical) stroke in 特 Was implemented I assume to give you a better 4th stroke alignment as the vertical stroke serves as a good reference. Perhaps the actual angle 4th stroke was implemented so as to distinguish it from a 牛 by itself. So instead of the reader seeing 牛寺 they see 特.

"Inconsistencies" such as these are consistent in their own right, so every time you see a radical that has the little angle in it that is drawn in a different stroke order is like that where it appears in a different stroke order.

So yeah I think it's best to think about it in that a vertical stroke gives you a better reference point to do your next angle stroke, since I find it hard to do horizontal -> angle -> vertical.

With your second question 田 and 十 have nothing to do with each other.
With 田 it is more efficient (pencil or brush or whatever) to do vertical first, then the two horizontal, instead of horizontal, vertical, horizontal.

You may now ask but what about 土, that's a little different cause the final stroke sets the base, and it's not HHV like you said above. If the vertical stroke were the final stroke it'd be a little awkward for it to not cross through, as you have seen with 十, and 牛 (final vertical strokes usually cross through).

I believe these were all designed so that it is easiest for the learner to keep their structure and shape consistent, to give you a reference/vantage point on which to start your next stroke and so on. If you do art you'll realize most of the technique artists rely on is through efficiency and making use of these little subtle vantage points.
Some characters though, as you will come across them have really bizarre stroke orders and that is usually due to either incompetent scholars back in the day, or a mix two different characters that implements the stroke order of the old character yet appears to look like a totally different character (eg 必)

No there shouldn't be any changes. The left primitive of 特 is actually not 牛, there for the the last stroke for 特's left primitive is the diagonal stroke. The 牛's last stroke is the vertical one going from top to bottom.

田's cross (十) inside is written exactly the same as the number 十, first horizontal, then vertical.
A general rule for stroke order is, horizontal first, then vertical but keep in mind 'closing strokes'.
Hope that helped.

*please not that there are sometimes slight differences in stroke order between Chinese Hanzi and Japanese Kanji. But the Chinese one (since they invented it) is the logical one.

Musashi Wrote:田's cross (十) inside is written exactly the same as the number 十, first horizontal, then vertical.
A general rule for stroke order is, horizontal first, then vertical but keep in mind 'closing strokes'.
Hope that helped.

As far as I know that's not true. The cross inside 田 when it is written on it's own is drawn with the vertical first. I'm not sure what the stroke order would be in the Hanzi, but despite it originating from Chinese there is still a correct Japanese way to write it.

Weird, I never noticed that. The correct (Chinese) stroke-order for 田 is the same as 十, which is how I learned it. I wonder when (and why) those changes were made in Japan...

chameleoncoder Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:田's cross (十) inside is written exactly the same as the number 十, first horizontal, then vertical.
A general rule for stroke order is, horizontal first, then vertical but keep in mind 'closing strokes'.
Hope that helped.

As far as I know that's not true. The cross inside 田 when it is written on it's own is drawn with the vertical first. I'm not sure what the stroke order would be in the Hanzi, but despite it originating from Chinese there is still a correct Japanese way to write it.

Actually that is NOT the correct stroke order. Naturally horizontal is always followed by vertical in Chinese, and since Kanji came from it, it's the correct way, but like I said already, there are some slight differences between Chinese and Japanese stroke order.

Musashi, there's an official stroke-order specified by the ministry of education in Japan. I haven't looked myself, but I trust it's the same as reported here and in RTK (vertical first). I assume that's what chameleoncoder means by "correct Japanese stroke order." That said, the traditional Chinese characters are also considered "official characters," and those changed for the the Joyo list are "officially-sanctioned variants." So I guess they're both right.

mafried Wrote:Musashi, there's an official stroke-order specified by the ministry of education in Japan. I haven't looked myself, but I trust it's the same as reported here and in RTK (vertical first). I assume that's what chameleoncoder means by "correct Japanese stroke order." That said, the traditional Chinese characters are also considered "official characters," and those changed for the the Joyo list are "officially-sanctioned variants." So I guess they're both right.

I know, that's why I said that there were some differences in Chinese and Japanese stroke order, but me being Chinese born and having learned it that way naturally makes differences in Japanese stroke order feel unnatural and incorrect

Musashi Wrote:Chinese, and since Kanji came from it, it's the correct way,

Now that's not the best way to think about things. Things evolve and adapt when they get transferred across different cultures, continents and generations in most cases as it was with science, for the better. It is most evident with the sciences (I don't want to get into zen/tea ceremonies), but you get my drift.

I find writing 田 the Japanese way is "more logical" as I have explained in my post.

In some cases i prefer the Chinese 'way' but that is more for stylistic purposes like 花 in 8 strokes instead of 7.

You are in Japan, so as far as anyone is concerned the 'correct' stroke order is Japanese. But you can do what you are most comfortable with.

To hell with stroke order! It's like musical fingering, the end result is all that matters.

OH NOOOOOOOOOOOO! somebody will be secretly watching me scrawl Kanji on my own with the WRONG stroke order?!? How will I live down the shame?!? and furthermore what if they have clairevoyant abilities and findout that all my stories are about Mr.T the rapist or Spider mans crotch?!?

Amazing read, thank you people

kazelee Wrote:To hell with stroke order! It's like musical fingering, the end result is all that matters.

Um, no. Stroke order is important, particular for handwritten characters that often flow into an organic whole. Often, when trying to read handwriting -especially if it was fast and/or sloppy, the only thing that makes it legible IS the flow of stroke order.

Yeah, it seems kind of arbitrary sometimes. Learn it anyway - if not for your own handwriting, so that you can read other people's handwriting.

Stroke order is not what you need to learn, it's the system. You learn it by learning the stroke order for the primitives and some kanji, but people who think you have to memorize the stroke order of each kanji are just misunderstanding the point of stroke order.

Like aijin said (a Japanese member on the forum), stroke order is just a basic guide. As long as the kanji looks correct when written, it doesn't matter how you wrote it.

Tobberoth Wrote:Stroke order is not what you need to learn, it's the system. You learn it by learning the stroke order for the primitives and some kanji, but people who think you have to memorize the stroke order of each kanji are just misunderstanding the point of stroke order.

Like aijin said (a Japanese member on the forum), stroke order is just a basic guide. As long as the kanji looks correct when written, it doesn't matter how you wrote it.

I think there is a distinction that should be made between 'correct' and 'better'
just cause a character looks good enough or 'correct' doesn't mean one shouldn't aim any higher.

liosama Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Stroke order is not what you need to learn, it's the system. You learn it by learning the stroke order for the primitives and some kanji, but people who think you have to memorize the stroke order of each kanji are just misunderstanding the point of stroke order.

Like aijin said (a Japanese member on the forum), stroke order is just a basic guide. As long as the kanji looks correct when written, it doesn't matter how you wrote it.

I think there is a distinction that should be made between 'correct' and 'better'
just cause a character looks good enough or 'correct' doesn't mean one shouldn't aim any higher.

Learning stroke order isn't what makes your kanji look better if you're already good enough to write them correctly and fast.

Tobberoth Wrote:

liosama Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Stroke order is not what you need to learn, it's the system. You learn it by learning the stroke order for the primitives and some kanji, but people who think you have to memorize the stroke order of each kanji are just misunderstanding the point of stroke order.

Like aijin said (a Japanese member on the forum), stroke order is just a basic guide. As long as the kanji looks correct when written, it doesn't matter how you wrote it.

I think there is a distinction that should be made between 'correct' and 'better'
just cause a character looks good enough or 'correct' doesn't mean one shouldn't aim any higher.

Learning stroke order isn't what makes your kanji look better if you're already good enough to write them correctly and fast.

Of course I'm going off the assumption that writing them 'correctly' entails conforming to the stroke order.
But I agree with you anyway, the 'system' you describe is what I believe I described in my first post, using certain strokes first as a vantage point from which one can nicely align the next stroke so it looks centered, accurate, and nice or whatever.

Tobberoth Wrote:Like aijin said (a Japanese member on the forum), stroke order is just a basic guide. As long as the kanji looks correct when written, it doesn't matter how you wrote it.

I think that is not the best advice for the kanji learners. You should know the correct stroke order (every kanji sensei would insist on that). I guess it`s only after you`ve mastered the kanji (including stroke order), then you can deliberately change stroke order in your writings (for any reason (etymologycal, aesthetical or personal).

liosama Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:Chinese, and since Kanji came from it, it's the correct way,

Now that's not the best way to think about things. Things evolve and adapt when they get transferred across different cultures, continents and generations in most cases as it was with science, for the better. It is most evident with the sciences (I don't want to get into zen/tea ceremonies), but you get my drift.

I find writing 田 the Japanese way is "more logical" as I have explained in my post.

In some cases i prefer the Chinese 'way' but that is more for stylistic purposes like 花 in 8 strokes instead of 7.

You are in Japan, so as far as anyone is concerned the 'correct' stroke order is Japanese. But you can do what you are most comfortable with.

Well FYI, in case you haven't read my post clearly, you could read that I'm Chinese and learned it obviously the Chinese way, you on the other hand just follow your own mix and match pattern (using Japanese stroke order with bits of Chinese) resulting in inconsistency, so you don't have to tell me what is the best way to think about things. Believe me, I know my things. Obviously you haven't had 書道 classes. And your link to science... uhm, right.

liosama Wrote:You are in Japan, so as far as anyone is concerned the 'correct' stroke order is Japanese. But you can do what you are most comfortable with.

Imagine this scenario:
You are learning target language X which uses ABC as a script. Well you knowing how to write your ABC hasn't proved to to be a problem, I mean you have used it all your life, till you find out the people in country X write the letter 'S' in reverse. Would you honestly write the 'S' in reverse too when using language X? I don't think so.

liosama Wrote:But I agree with you anyway, the 'system' you describe is what I believe I described in my first post, using certain strokes first as a vantage point from which one can nicely align the next stroke so it looks centered, accurate, and nice or whatever.

I dare to bet that your kanji looks like chicken scratch.

If both the Chinese and Japanese stroke orders are used by millions of people, clearly they're both good enough and neither is incorrect or illogical.

Ease up Musashi, you're getting edgy for no reason.

Musashi Wrote:You are in Japan, so as far as anyone is concerned the 'correct' stroke order is Japanese. But you can do what you are most comfortable with.

This was for an arbitrary Japanese learner, and was by no means directed at you even though I wrote it on my post where i quoted you. Since you learnt it one way there really is no point learning it another way. I won't say the Chinese way is correct just because they invented it, I find that absurd to say, Japan has a had a long time to evolve and adapt on Kanji to give it their own unique flavour just as much as the Chinese have adapted on primitive forms of characters which had to be carved into to bone or metal.

Musashi Wrote:Well FYI, in case you haven't read my post clearly, you could read that I'm Chinese and learned it obviously the Chinese way, you on the other hand just follow your own mix and match pattern (using Japanese stroke order with bits of Chinese) resulting in inconsistency, so you don't have to tell me what is the best way to think about things. Believe me, I know my things. Obviously you haven't had 書道 classes. And your link to science... uhm, right.

I did read your post clearly, you just read mine with angst and thought it was some sort of an attack on Chinese culture, I haven't had 書道 classes nor have I had 書法.

Musashi Wrote:

liosama Wrote:But I agree with you anyway, the 'system' you describe is what I believe I described in my first post, using certain strokes first as a vantage point from which one can nicely align the next stroke so it looks centered, accurate, and nice or whatever.

I dare to bet that your kanji looks like chicken scratch.

It does because I don't really practice writing all that often, and I wasn't born in China, and I haven't had 書道 classes, but what, are you expecting me to scan some of my writing for you now just to prove my opinion?

LazyNomad Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Like aijin said (a Japanese member on the forum), stroke order is just a basic guide. As long as the kanji looks correct when written, it doesn't matter how you wrote it.

I think that is not the best advice for the kanji learners. You should know the correct stroke order (every kanji sensei would insist on that). I guess it`s only after you`ve mastered the kanji (including stroke order), then you can deliberately change stroke order in your writings (for any reason (etymologycal, aesthetical or personal).

It's not so much about changing stroke order deliberately as it is the ability to see a kanji for the first time and write it correctly. I do in 95% of all cases, probably more. In those 5% where I switch the order of two strokes, I don't care, because it doesn't matter. If the difference is so small that I can't spot it, the difference won't be spotted when I write the kanji either.

Learning stroke order is good. Memorizing stroke order for every single kanji isn't (unless you want to get into calligraphy at which point you might feel it's worth the time).

liosama Wrote:This was for an arbitrary Japanese learner, and was by no means directed at you even though I wrote it on my post where i quoted you. Since you learnt it one way there really is no point learning it another way. I won't say the Chinese way is correct just because they invented it, I find that absurd to say, Japan has a had a long time to evolve and adapt on Kanji to give it their own unique flavour just as much as the Chinese have adapted on primitive forms of characters which had to be carved into to bone or metal.

As have the Chinese, it's not like they invented it and then stopped evolving it, they are still using it right. But I guess it's is not really our place to say what's 'correct' and wrong since there has been people devoting their entire lives on doing that.

liosama Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:Well FYI, in case you haven't read my post clearly, you could read that I'm Chinese and learned it obviously the Chinese way, you on the other hand just follow your own mix and match pattern (using Japanese stroke order with bits of Chinese) resulting in inconsistency, so you don't have to tell me what is the best way to think about things. Believe me, I know my things. Obviously you haven't had 書道 classes. And your link to science... uhm, right.

I did read your post clearly, you just read mine with angst and thought it was some sort of an attack on Chinese culture

Err...not really

liosama Wrote:It does because I don't really practice writing all that often, and I wasn't born in China

Nor was I

liosama Wrote:I haven't had 書道 classes, but what, are you expecting me to scan some of my writing for you now just to prove my opinion?

No need, I can already imagine

Tobberoth Wrote:It's not so much about changing stroke order deliberately as it is the ability to see a kanji for the first time and write it correctly. I do in 95% of all cases, probably more. In those 5% where I switch the order of two strokes, I don't care, because it doesn't matter. If the difference is so small that I can't spot it, the difference won't be spotted when I write the kanji either.

Learning stroke order is good. Memorizing stroke order for every single kanji isn't (unless you want to get into calligraphy at which point you might feel it's worth the time).

Well said. There's a japanese pdf guide on principles of stroke order at http://www.shosha.kokugo.juen.ac.jp/oshi...kiyori.pdf

I can probably scan the translated version from Michael Pye's "The Study of Kanji" later.

Musashi Wrote:Imagine this scenario:
You are learning target language X which uses ABC as a script. Well you knowing how to write your ABC hasn't proved to to be a problem, I mean you have used it all your life, till you find out the people in country X write the letter 'S' in reverse. Would you honestly write the 'S' in reverse too when using language X? I don't think so.

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