Ok so I've been trying to learn Japanese for a few weeks now using AJATT and RTK.. so far I know a couple hundred kanjis and generally it's been going well. However often I lose motivation because frankly studying these things is just not fun. Some days I just go on without studying at all. So I've been thinking, as I'm about to enter college as a freshman, if I should sign up for a Japanese class? I know AJATT and Heisig strongly advise against it, but would it be more beneficial to me to learn in a class? Has anyone used RTK in conjunction with learning in a classroom? If I stick to it could I learn vastly quicker using AJATT? Thanks for any help

I've been learning French in UK education for ... ooo... over 7 years now?

And I can still barely understand it. That's enough evidence for me to not believe in them!

The thing is, classes don't necessarily teach you how to speak the language, as illogical as that may seem. In French classes I can conjugate verbs in so many different tenses, but ask me to order a sandwich and I struggle! It's not a good way to learn it for speaking, or even just understanding. I'm still amazed at the language education system in the UK; I don't consider myself 'bad' at languages, I think that if I'd used the AJATT system for French I'd understand it better in about 6 months than I do now.

Khatzumoto (author of AJATT) doesn't generally point fingers at something without a good reason. If you read what he's written he does explain why he hates classes - I think one of the articles was even called 'Why Classes Suck'! They don't teach you confidence in speaking or encourage you to listen to 'proper' pieces of the language, at all. Whoever made the curriculum can't have been very clever, in my opinion...

Also, remember that with Japanese you've got the kanji 'barrier' as well. The Jouyou order isn't as good a way as tackling the kanji as the mnemonically-induced hypothetical battering ram of Heisig

If you are going to take classes, carry on listening to 'real' Japanese in your free time, and definitely continue with RTK. I'm only half way through, and I'm still able to guess meaning of words written in kanji. You won't be able to learn 20 kanji a day (average amount I'm doing at the moment) by repetition and rote without killing yourself. And there are people who manage to do 100 kanji a day with RTK (I'm in awe of you!), which just wouldn't be possible any other way.

Good luck!

I take, and will continue to take, Japanese classes at Uni. They're absolutely useless though. I take it because its now my 'break' class, and an easy A grade

Heisig doesn't advise against it, he merely asserts that you shouldn't use it in conjunction with classes since they won't coincide at all and it will be very difficult to manage them both, which I have found to be true.

AJATT is a whole new story, I disagree with nearly everything he says so I'll stop here.

As for edsmaffs, I think your 7 years spent learning french was a waste because you yourself cannot balance home study with school study. I cannot stand the mentality of; 'take a course and expect to come out an expert with no self input'.Not surprisingly this is most evident in languages where there is a need for constant requirement of self study and daily study routines. There is so much unnecessary anti-establishment/anti-university education on these forums, and I don't see the need for it at all.

I personally found first year Japanese useless so I'd agree with you guys there, second year; more or less the same same story. My guess is that in the later years a university experience in language classes are really beneficial.

So I shall stress, to future posters, to consider the fact that taking classes doesn't solve all problems. You still need to find a language partner, you still have to srs as you would at home without classes, you still have to do whatever you would do normally but you get the added benefit of motivation, (lose money for failing or whatever), the benefit of a proper teacher over any normal native.

Let me warn you: If you already know some hundred kanji and has entered sentences for a few weeks (especially if you've mined Tae Kims), you're already much better at Japanese than you will learn the first term (maybe even the first year) on an average American college.

Personally I find classes great, but I took classes at a Japanese institute in Japan so it was quite different from what is to be expected outside of Japan.

That was the point I was trying to make though, liosama. The education system doesn't encourage people to try and motivate themselves to do outside work and be in control of what you learn. If I wanted to learn French (I don't) I would have done the method I'm using for Japanese, and done SRS study and input outside of school; in fact the lessons would have become superfluous. I have SRS cards set up for my Physics and Chemistry studies, which I need to know well to do what I want to do in Uni.

The issue I was trying to make is that the system doesn't encourage people to be active in their learning; it's making us feel passive, and act as if everything will be ok if we turn up for just that 1 hour every now and then, which just doesn't work.

What I was trying to say to the OP was not to rely on them. If they help keep him / her motivated and getting at least 'some' more input, then they are worth it. However, they will never be able to replace what you mentioned in the last paragraph; real input and SRSing.

On the AJATT side of things, I think Khatzumoto has gone too far in denouncing textbooks and classes, etc. I think Kanji Odyssey in conjunction with an SRS is beneficial, despite it not being native input. But he's right about trying to get real Japanese into your brain as early as possible in your learning process.

I don't actually have as much anti-university feelings as it sounded like from my 2 other posts :/. What I don't like is the attitute that learning ends once you're out of the classroom, which is the feeling I get from my sixth form college.

Finish RTK first. Don't even consider classes until after that.

But then... Well, it depends on what kind of learner you are. If you are a dedicated self-study person, you're much better off with some books and teaching yourself as you'll learn a lot more in a smaller number of hours per week.

If you have trouble staying on something for more than a few weeks, classes give incentive to keep at it. However, they won't teach much, and you're probably best to take a class and also be learning on the side as well, probably through games or something fun. (There's a DS game that has quite a bit of vocab, but teaches just about nothing else. I don't recommend it as the only study item, but as part of a bunch of things, it's okay.)

If you just want Japanese force-fed to you and want to do the minimum work, just take a class. It will take you years before you can begin to start reading and understanding spoken language, and more years before you start writing and speaking, but you'll get there eventually.

I've been studying for about a year and a half without any classes. (I have used some books, some games, some online programs like Smart.fm.) I can now read -really- easy mangas and understand almost everything said... What I can't understand, I can figure out from context. For pre-teen mangas I can understand enough to know what they're talking about. For teenage mangas (with furigana) I can understand enough to only have to look up a few keys words on each page to understand what's going on. For mangas without furigana, I can read the occasional word, but don't really understand what's going on.

There's no way I'd be where I am if I had taken classes, as it would have taken too many hours of out my day to have time to self-study. (Oh, and I self-study anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours a day, usually. Sometimes this means just reading manga, and not learning from a textbook or program, though.)

One last thought: The further you go, the easier it is to sit down and self-study, especially since you can start adding fun things like reading manga to it.

If you don't enjoy your current form of study you should change it or things will just become very difficult. Classes would force you to do things but not necessarily make things more fun.

I found that having a textbook to study from was good motivation to keep learning as I had a goal to finish the textbooks.

If you ask me, yes. Any extra exposure isn't gonna be bad anyways. I do agree with what wccrawford said, it depends on what kind of learner you are. Although at the moment I'm self-studying, me getting distracted quite easily makes me too free and 'lazy' to study sometimes. Being in class and having a tight schedule and being forced to perform has proven to work better for me. You also get influenced by your fellow classmates, for example my nature being quite competitive and always wanting to outperform fellow classmates kinda forced me to study hard. It also depends on the class and at what kind of pace it teaches. My class for example had quite a fast pace at a one-(thick)textbook-in-5-months-time rate. It's hard to keep up, but it forces you because you're expected to do so. But in the end it ofcourse depends in what kind of situation you perform better.

I took two Japanese classes when I first started learning Japanese. Since learning kanji via that method was painful, when I found RTK I was estactic and never lost motivation to finish.

But taking those classes introduced to all the Japanese friends I still have now. I reccommend it for the initial networking of meeting Japanese students at your school as someone in the class will be friends with at least one Japanese student(or not).

I think your typical, beginner level university class probably isn't worth going to, but every university has to offer them because you have to start somewhere. It's like any degree though- kids expect to show up, do some homework and become all of the sudden proficient in whatever the class is on.

I BSed my way through high school and crammed my way through college but language isn't something you can cram for, you either know it or you don't. I could fill my head with calculus equations to last long enough to take the test, but I can't prep like that for a conversation. I think that's one reason Japanese has been so tough for me- I taught myself one way (a flawed way) of learning, and my mind got used to that binge and purge method. Learn from my mistake- develop good work/study habits early!

Some of the replies here, and perhaps the initial question itself, are a bit essentialist. Whether a university course is good or not has to do with many variables, including the nature of the program itself and, probably most importantly, the personality and methodological understanding of the individual instructor.

It's not possible to generalize, or, maybe better put, any generalization is an over-generalization. It may be true that language courses at many colleges and universities in many places have tended to be bad - I myself did not prosper in either Latin or French at the historically specific places and times I did them at university - but that does not mean that wonderful courses are not on offer in other places and contexts, and surely the good courses out there at this or that place at this time are not going to hinder RtK work, nor the latter the former.

To EdiblePwncakes: You're not going to get Japanese in 'a few weeks' whatever you do, of course. Check with friends, the uni website, whatever other resources you have available, to find out what the Japanese courses are like, how they proceed and by what methods, who is teaching them, how they present themselves, what is said about them, and make a decision on the specific case, not an essentialist understanding of the value or lack thereof in general of 'a Japanese class'.

You'll find that we're anti-(University)classes because we've been there, done that. Foreign language classes in the states move at a snails pace. It is slow and it is inefficient (by comparison to the self-study methods of this forum), and I like many posters here speak from experience when we recommend against it.

But for some people they need to be in that classroom to be motivated. If that's the case, I would recommend looking outside of the university system. Maybe there are language classes at your local Japanese community center (if you have one)? Maybe you can get a tutor.

I think the real answer is that you're not having fun, and that's what need to change. Be creative.

mafried Wrote:You'll find that we're anti-(University)classes because we've been there, done that. Foreign language classes in the states move at a snails pace. It is slow and it is inefficient (by comparison to the self-study methods of this forum), and I like many posters here speak from experience when we recommend against it.

That's why you should take classes in Asian countries like Korea, China or better, Japan. The pace is a lot faster

EdiblePwncakes Wrote:However often I lose motivation because frankly studying these things is just not fun.

Ofcourse studying is not fun (and no there's no such thing as fluency-in-10-weeks no matter how many ads you see promising that) so you just have to work for it, and you want to reach that fluency or pass a JLPT and the satisfaction(not to mention tons of other reasons) that comes with it right? Often when you lose motivation, could it be that you don't want it as much as you thought. If you really want it, you'll get to that desired level no matter what it takes. But you're lucky we have all these different methods of studying (as opposed to before the internet), all to make traditional studying less 'boring'. Find out what the least unmotivating method is for you and if it's not to your liking, simply find another method

mafried Wrote:I think the real answer is that you're not having fun, and that's what need to change. Be creative.

I agree, and I had a blast in class, so that definitely helped.

I think classes could be combined by a teacher with full knowledge of AJATT and Heisig to make something superior to that alone. Unfortunately, virtually all Japanese teachers have very little idea on how people learn languages, how best to study and how best to teach. I've been taught by about 25 different teachers up until now and I'm sad to say that none of them had a clue. As such classes (my guess is over 99%) are far less effective than just "studying" by yourself.

If you need a piece of paper then go for it. It's also a good way to make friends with a common interest I think. However, if you learn Japanese smart by yourself, classes will be a hindrance more than anything else. I still have nightmares about fill in the blank homework.

I wouldn't freak out too much over the decision. Sign up for a class, show up for a few weeks. If you like it, keep taking it. If you hate it, drop it. It's not really rocket science. That's what's great about college.

Everyone learns differently. This forum attracts a lot of people who didn't like their foreign language classes, and who tend to self-study, so you're going to hear a lot of versions of the same story.

The major problem with classes is pacing. If you want to go faster, they won't. If you want to go slower, they won't. You have to mold to them, not the other way around.

I did 6 semesters' worth in grad school, and enjoyed it for the most part. I didn't learn as much as I wanted to, though, and compared to what I know now... ouch. Targeted self-study has been orders of magnitude more effective for me than classes were. But I've still got some friends on the faculty of the Asian Studies dept who are willing to help me when I have questions, so it's all good.

And yeah, as the others have said, in the end, if you don't work on it a lot outside of class, it'll take forever to get good.

If it sucks, you'll see how well you are doing with AJATT, so you'll like AJATT more. If it is good, it is good!

It is a win win situation. So it depends on what you'll sacrifice. If it is free, go for it. Otherwise, save the money to buy a Nintendo DS, that will be handy later.

Wow, am I one of the only people that had a decent Japanese class in college?

If you've already started with RTK you can definitely finish before they throw too many kanji at you in class, so I wouldn't worry too much about classes interfering with that. A class probably wouldn't work too well with KO2001 afterwords since you'll basically be going through two differently ordered vocab sets. You could of course try both, but it may feel a little disconnected.

For me, classes were most useful for reading & speaking practice. I didn't know any Japanese people, so getting an hour a day listening to and speaking to a native Japanese speaker definitely helped. It certainly made my kana reading speed really fast and taught me lots of vocab if nothing else.

A lot of people seem gung-ho on learning the language as fast as humanly possible. If that's your goal, then you can certainly find ways to progress faster than through traditional classes. The crucial question of course is "Are you having fun?" My Japanese classes were lots of fun. We had (mostly) hilarious teachers and you got to meet a lot of interesting fellow language learners. I'd say definitely try the class and see how you like it. A crappy language course (of which I had plenty in high school) can easily demotivate you so only stick with it if you like it.

There should be a major reform of high school/university courses. If you can't learn a language in 4 years there's something wrong.

Jaunty Wrote:We had (mostly) hilarious teachers and you got to meet a lot of interesting fellow language learners.

Aside from the quality of materials/methods used, this is kind of the make-it or break-it point for me. It's like, one semester you're rolling along, cracking jokes with a cool old Japanese lady and studying Japanese with people who almost seem normal (insomuch as anybody learning a language ever seems normal ), and then BAM! Suddenly you find yourself with a teacher who doesn't actually teach, and who seems to take a sadistic pleasure in making you do group exercises with the guy who comes to class wearing a tail every day, complains about how hard it is to be a fox trapped in a wolf's body, who is in turn trapped in a human, and makes yelping sounds whenever he can't remember how to pronounce a kanji.

So yeah, when it's good it's good, but it can go bad fast.

Also, no, none of what I wrote is made up or exaggerated for the purposes of making a point. Fox-wolf-boy is real. He wears a collar. I've been told even other furries find him insufferable.

Jaunty Wrote:Wow, am I one of the only people that had a decent Japanese class in college?

I see you're from CA. You didn't have Ms. Ihara at De Anza Community College by any chance, did you? She was far and away one of the best teachers I have ever had, and I still look back at my notes from that class, and keep in touch with some of the students I met there.

But since then I have had 3 other absolutely horrid Japanese instructors, and an equally bad teacher of Chinese. Before that I had a long list of bad teachers of Spanish. I'm sure there are others out there like Ms. Ihara, but they are certainly the exception not the rule. In fact, my experience in that class is what demonstrated for me the ineffectiveness of other foreign language classes. Ms. Ihara often had to fight the system to give us a quality education as the textbooks and department-mandated syllabus were sh#t.

But still, I recommend to people that ask not to take classes. If you find a good teacher and a good class, great for you. But (in the states at least) chance are you wont. And nothing can be more demotivating than a bad classroom experience.

Mcjon01 Wrote:Suddenly you find yourself with a teacher who doesn't actually teach, and who seems to take a sadistic pleasure in making you do group exercises with the guy who comes to class wearing a tail every day, complains about how hard it is to be a fox trapped in a wolf's body, who is in turn trapped in a human, and makes yelping sounds whenever he can't remember how to pronounce a kanji.

So yeah, when it's good it's good, but it can go bad fast.

Also, no, none of what I wrote is made up or exaggerated for the purposes of making a point. Fox-wolf-boy is real. He wears a collar. I've been told even other furries find him insufferable.

Eh!?

C'est drole.

I also had a positive experience with my university Japanese course. And sure, we moved at a slower pace than I do now with self study, I actually kind of miss the classroom setting, for a number of reasons...

1). The camaraderie with my classmates. Our Japanese department was fairly small, so you were in class with the same people the whole way through... by the time we hit third year, we were a pretty tight knit group.
2). The teachers.... there were only three in the department... I only had two of them during my time there... but all three really took an interest in us and made sure that we were having fun. They were also really encouraging with things like study abroad and helping us find ways to work in Japan after graduation
3). The other things we did outside of just learning Japanese... There's a lot more to language learning than just studying the language... my language classes (along with the help of some of the Asian history courses I took) really helped me get a good grasp on Japanese culture and history, and I think that knowing some of that has really enhanced my time in Japan.
4) The skits Our final project each semester was to write and put on a skit (either live or video taped), and it was always great to see what everyone else had come up with - not to mention they were hilarious....
5). Easy access to a native speaker who was good about correcting mistakes

And as for the fox-boy and people who thing Sailor Moon is real types... Most of them couldn't hack it and quit either at the end of first year or after their first semester of 200-level Japanese... By the time we hit the second semester of my sophomore year, the class size had dwindled a lot, but we had a really great group of people left.

But as someone else mentioned.... sign up for the course and try it out... if you don't like it, drop it... or see if you don't care about getting the credit, see if you can audit...

liosama Wrote:I cannot stand the mentality of; 'take a course and expect to come out an expert with no self input'.Not surprisingly this is most evident in languages where there is a need for constant requirement of self study and daily study routines. There is so much unnecessary anti-establishment/anti-university education on these forums, and I don't see the need for it at all.

I'm totally not anti-university education. I think the decision needs to be based on enthusiasm for the language. I can think of several cases like:

a) You're not very enthusiastic, so don't put in extra effort than the bare minimum needed for classes, and you make minimal progress which isn't very much.

b) You're content with the pace of the course and apply yourself just right to get the most from the course.

c) You are very enthusiastic and put in extra effort and you soon find the classes are holding you back more than helping.

In the case of © I wouldn't recommend classes, unless it is at a very intensive course.