chochajin Wrote:It's true that it's fairly easy for English native speakers to land a job as an English teacher/tutor here in Japan without being qualified at all and that's probably ONE of the reasons why Japanese can't speak English that well.

The other, larger, reason being that Japanese Teachers of English can't speak the language worth two spits in an empty fanta can.

bodhisamaya Wrote:

chochajin Wrote:It's true that it's fairly easy for English native speakers to land a job as an English teacher/tutor here in Japan without being qualified at all and that's probably ONE of the reasons why Japanese can't speak English that well.

What makes them not qualified? Most English teachers in Japan just graduated from college and accepted a job overseas as kind of an adventure before starting their careers back home. Even so, every teacher I met in Japan prepared as best as he/she could for the job at hand. For a job that pays an average of 250,000yen, far less than one might make back in America or Canada for a teaching gig, they are getting a bargain for their buck.

I agree with bodhisamaya. It may be ONE very small reason why Japanese people can't speak English, but the main reasons far outweight this insignificant one.

The main reasons Japanese people can't speak English are (in my experience):
1. Japanese teachers of English can't speak English either
2. They pronounce English words using Katakana
3. The teaching curriculum for English focuses heavily on reading and writing.
4. The HS entrance exams do too (which is why the curriculum does).
5. The government has no serious desire (IMO) to make sure their citizens learn proper English, unlike other asian countries.

That's my top 5, after teaching here and experiencing it for nearly a year as an ALT in public schools. There are a lot of others reasons as well, but underqualified ALTs doesn't even register as a main reason. I can be the best teacher in the world, but the actual impact I have with my students is relatively minimal, as I see them only once a week, at most. My elementary students I see 3 times a year- pretty much useless.

I can see the point for eikawa teachers though- their students are usually a lot more serious about learning English and the teacher has a lot more control and impact- a poor teacher would make a much larger impact there. Unfortunately, most of the damage has already been done by public schooling as most people in eikawa have already graduated high school.

captal Wrote:4. The HS entrance exams do too (which is why the curriculum does).
5. The government has no serious desire (IMO) to make sure their citizens learn proper English, unlike other asian countries.

Just a small comment on your brilliant synopsis.
4. The college entrance exams focus on reading (not really writing), thus the HS entrance exams do too.
5. I think they have a genuine desire for them to, but they just can't get it worked out. Much like most governments.

Just to make thinkgs clear: why do you think I wrote "ONE" in captial letters?
Exactly
I'm well aware of the fact that there are other reasons and I also know that that's by far not the main reason

chochajin Wrote:Just to make thinkgs clear: why do you think I wrote "ONE" in captial letters?
Exactly
I'm well aware of the fact that there are other reasons and I also know that that's by far not the main reason

I'm just a fan of top 5 lists ;D Like if you could only drink 5 beers for the rest of your life, what would they be? A killer for people who love their beer (like me)

Actually, I got bored at school one day and started writing an outline for a book called "Katakana is Killing Japan" because really, that's the biggest problem (in terms of poor English speaking). If you see it on shelves some day, be sure to buy it (fat chance)

captal Wrote:3. The teaching curriculum for English focuses heavily on reading and writing.

What?! are we living on the same planet? I wish they focused heavily on reading and writing. Particularly reading. Students don't get set reading material as homework, and they can't write much at all because they have almost zero understanding of syntax (Because it's A. not taught and B. they don't get enough exposure). I aggree with you about the pronunciation thing. Good pronunciation needs to be focused on early. But I think the main problem is that the japanese system does not really focus on anything. My students get 3 (4 if they're lucky) hours of unfocused english education per week from teachers with an often sketchy grasp of the language. Mind you I don't think the teachers are the main problem. The whole system is flawed in so many ways and needs to fixed holistically.

You're right- there isn't a good focus- however I think they are a lot more focused on reading and writing (well, not really writing, filling in the blank and copying words) than they are on speaking/listening. They do have absolutely no concept of syntax because homework is usually "copy these 10 words 10 times each" or "copy this sentence from the book 10 times." It's pathetic.

Just how will Japan ever focus on good pronounciation when very, very few people in Japan have good pronounciation? When I first came I thought that was the point of the ALT- to refine pronounciation. I was naive. The point of the ALT is probably just to get kids used to seeing a foreign face and introducing a little bit about a different culture. It isn't really to do anything in English besides play games and be a tape recorder. How can anyone expect an hour a week to do anything when the 2-3 other hours learning English are spent only in Japanese or with katakana-ized pronounciation? And the hours at home are just spent mindlessly copying or memorizing?

I never understood why Japanese kids playing in the streets would say ハロ to me. ヘロ is just as easy to say it would seem.

bodhisamaya Wrote:I never understood why Japanese kids playing in the streets would say ハロ to me. ヘロ is just as easy to say it would seem.

Maybe they thought you were Dutch

Is that how ヘロ is said in Dutch?

:lol: I lol'd

Since the thread has drifted into teaching English to Japanese:

Well, one can create an open-source form of language learning. The idea being, the knowledge and tools and methods are all there to utilize to become a great teacher of English (or Japanese). There can be a forum of other like minded teachers to discuss methods concerning efficiency and efficacy.

Start small, perhaps one student per hour that wants to learn English (or Japanese). Your job is to not only introduce ways to learn English (or Japanese), but to gauge and adjust as you note progress in the student.

Like others have said, just because there's Skype does not mean there's millions of people out there wanting to talk you in their language who then are going to correct your mistakes. They're not going to correct your e-mail, they're not going to check your writing. If you want that useful bit of effort, you're likely going to have to pay for it.

My thinking is for those of you spending several hundred or thousand hours studying Japanese, it's likely you have several hundred or thousand hours of experience on how to LEARN, likely from lots of time realizing how not to learn (that whole experience is built off mistakes thing). That's prime knowledge people are willing to pay for if it's concentrated on them, and not dispersed willy nilly on the internet for free. So convert that knowledge to being able to help another learn. That then leads to help more learn. In addition, word of mouth spreads about how good you are, and soon clients are beating down your door.

Point being: SELL OUT!!!!

PS: The above is a variant of what I want to do when I retire in Japan. See, I do a work-out called CrossFit. It's built around the open-source model, so that should you become a coach of it, you can have a pretty reasonable income training one client an hour, five client a day for five days a week.

You as the coach spent time and effort to gather and internalize knowledge (just because it's free doesn't mean the knowledge is easy to obtain). By coaching (one at a time), you build up skills to transfer knowledge to clients. In time, you can even increase client load based on your own limitations. All this time, you probably want to discuss success and failures in training with others coaches for their insight.

Basically, I want to become proficient in Japanese to become a proficient coach of CrossFit in Japan to Japanese. It doesn't take much to see how well CrossFit has done in the US. It's built around the coaching concept, so it's something you can't do with Curves or Gold's Gym model. In other words, you have to be able to TALK to the client. It's not a stretch to see myself becoming successful in Japan teaching it.

So yes, if you see a MAJOR problem in the Japanese education of English, don't worry about changing the system. Offer your own viable product, and Japanese that really want it will pay for it.

Nukemarine Wrote:Offer your own viable product, and Japanese that really want it will pay for it.

That's against my work visa

Good post, as usual Nukemarine. Good luck starting up your coaching when you get back here!

Good ideas Nukemarine, problem being that those demand you have a Japanese visa, you won't get a work visa from your own company. Of course, one can cheat here as well (get Japanese wife, teach English as well) but most people outside of English speaking countries simply can't use your ideas.

captal Wrote:How can anyone expect an hour a week to do anything when the 2-3 other hours learning English are spent only in Japanese or with katakana-ized pronounciation? And the hours at home are just spent mindlessly copying or memorizing?

I have zero knowledge of the English education system in Japan, but this message got me thinking about the value of memorization. After all, I'm spending many hours memorizing RTK at home and plan to spend many more hours memorizing sentences. How exactly is that different from what the Japanese kids are doing with English?

DavidZ Wrote:

captal Wrote:How can anyone expect an hour a week to do anything when the 2-3 other hours learning English are spent only in Japanese or with katakana-ized pronounciation? And the hours at home are just spent mindlessly copying or memorizing?

I have zero knowledge of the English education system in Japan, but this message got me thinking about the value of memorization. After all, I'm spending many hours memorizing RTK at home and plan to spend many more hours memorizing sentences. How exactly is that different from what the Japanese kids are doing with English?

Except you won't be memorizing sentences. At least, for your sake, I hope you aren't because its a major waste of time. Memorizing a sentence implies that you know it off by heart and can repeat the sentence when prompted. Memorizing a sentence does not necessarily indicate you understand it. SRS'ing sentences on the other hand, is about understanding them and then remembering them (or, perhaps more accurately, not forgetting them)- not memorizing them. There is a difference.

Captal, Tobberoth, I have to apologize. I've worked in a military setting for so long that I forget at times there's a pain in the ass process when trying to get into other countries. Japan being more a pain than others when it comes to trying to get a job and stay for a while (hence the original point of the thread).

Still, there's definite benefit to being knowledgeable in Japanese and having a skill that can be taught in Japanese. You don't have to be native level or even major in Japanese. I think Jarvik postulated on another thread he thinks Khatzumoto got a job in Japan more for the technical training he had vice his Japanese ability. The Japanese ability let him sell his technical skill to Japan.

Guess the hard part is getting the sponsorship should you not have corporate or government backing.

I'm pretty sure Jarviks point however was that Khazumotos Japanese skill was irrelevant, he was hired for his English. Still, you're making a good point.

DavidZ Wrote:

captal Wrote:How can anyone expect an hour a week to do anything when the 2-3 other hours learning English are spent only in Japanese or with katakana-ized pronounciation? And the hours at home are just spent mindlessly copying or memorizing?

I have zero knowledge of the English education system in Japan, but this message got me thinking about the value of memorization. After all, I'm spending many hours memorizing RTK at home and plan to spend many more hours memorizing sentences. How exactly is that different from what the Japanese kids are doing with English?

To be honest, I wish I hadn't have done RTK, but that's a can of worms to open and I'm definitely in the minority. I don't think there is harm in memorizing some things- perhaps nouns are a good example- but memorizing things like verbs without context can create some interesting sentences. Before I knew that people in Japan say 電話番を教えてください I had a Japanese person ask me to "teach them my phone number." We don't use teach in that context. Besides, my teeachers are teaching them to memorize incorrect English anyway. Things like "I read book" and "I drive car" are common because it's "easier" for them to understand. Perhaps, but you're doing damage in the long run. The teachers also have them copy the conversations in the book even though they don't understand them at all. What's the value in that?

Thanks for the clarification blackmacros and captal.
I re-read the AJATT pages and now I can see the distinction between the SRS sentence method and plain old no-good "memorization". Though it's not a simple distinction to make, as can be seen from these explanations:

Khatzumoto Wrote:you will memorize the sentence just by seeing and reading it repeatedly over time.
...
While you will eventually memorize a lot of the sentences, you will almost certainly not memorize all of them. But if you were to hear or read them (or sentences similar to them), you would understand them.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...tences-how

captal describes Japanese kids getting incorrect English input, memorizing verbs out of context, and copying sentences with no understanding of the meaning. This I can see is pure insanity and in direct opposition to the sentence method.

『Do people from non-English speaking countries have to work harder to get there vs the ones that do?』

...

You know, I always try not to think too much about that, because I like to believe that the effort I have made to learn Japanese and Mandarin are purely because I have a love for learning, and not because I want to suck up to the biased expectations of potential future employers and the societies in which they live, but if I think about it that way, I can't help but to think that may indeed be the case.

I was born in Korea but have lived the past 10 years and another 3 years when I was much younger in the US. I have no accent, and my only flaws in English is that sometimes I can't remember what words are called, so I make up my own (such as "stair handle" for railing, "face hat" for mask.. etc.) and that I occasionally bump into a weird expression I don't understand. but a lot of those occasional oddities are purely a cultural thing, like knocking on a wooden surface after talking about something bad that could happen ("knock on wood".)

When I was half-way through college (had a green card by then) I started looking for easy entry-level jobs that I'd want to go after once I was done. One of the programs that appealed to me greatly was JET, but to my great dismay, they only accepted US citizens if you are applying in the US. They told me to apply through the Korean consulate, but what would I be teaching if I applied to JET through the Korean side? Korean. I haven't had a proper conversation in Korean in nearly 9 years. (Also, the acceptance rate["demand"] for the Korean JET is like winning the lottery. They only had like 100 JET participants from Korea, I think. It might had been much lower. It must be because Korean is so easy to learn as a Japanese person that most Japanese Korean teachers don't need an ALT in the classroom.)

So, to qualify for a job overseas, I
A. became a US citizen, even though I wasn't very interested in becoming an American
B. began to study Japanese like my pants were on fire
C. got a degree in education

Here's the thing.
If you are a beautiful blue eyed, pale skinned person, it's good for an eikaiwa to hire you. Why? Because nothing says "We know English" like hiring a foreign-looking foreigner. They'll take your fabulous foreign face and put it on all of their advertisements with your fabulous foreign katakana name written underneth. People will look at your face and immediately think of America, hamburgers, LEVI jeans and hollywood movies. But when they look at my face, they think "what's the big deal? She ain't got nothing I don't!"

Even if I ate all the hamburgers and wore all the jeans in the world I could never "look" like I should be speaking in English. On some part I sort of understand what these eikaiwa companies are thinking:
Who would you rather bother to ask a question about Spanish -- an asian-looking person or a hispanic-looking person?
Who do you think would be more likely to answer your question about the Hindi language: an Irish-looking person or an indian-woman wearing a Sari?

There's a chance that the asian-looking person might know a lot of Spanish. But you would expect to have a better chance with the Hispanic-looking person. I know my English is fine, but does everyone who looks at me also know this? I don't think so. Even in the US I'm sure not a lot of people would be surprised if I spoke little or very broken English. They expect it, that's why.

I can't change how I look to make myself look more American, so I figure the least I can do is know a lot of Japanese too so that I can live up to the "you look Japanese, so maybe I can just talk to you in Japanese" expectation. Not that I would ever surrender to this expectation in an English classroom, but for outside the classroom situations, I will prove to be more useful than someone who doesn't know a dot of Japanese and only came over for the Pocky and Kimonos.

Or so I like to believe, anyway.
I hear some employers like to hire foreigners because they can't talk back. Not that I'm bitchy or anything, but if I needed to, I could definitely talk back.

^Nice post.

Does everyone here know of many Asian JET/ALTs? People always say its possible, but I have never heard from a person who actually has managed this.

Nii87 Wrote:^Nice post.

Does everyone here know of many Asian JET/ALTs? People always say its possible, but I have never heard from a person who actually has managed this.

I know asians who succeeded in the JET program, is that enough for you? Don't be afraid, follow the process and get it done. Good luck

Nii87 Wrote:^Nice post.

Does everyone here know of many Asian JET/ALTs? People always say its possible, but I have never heard from a person who actually has managed this.

I guess for JET, is it possible: http://jetwit.com/wordpress/library/anec...et-alumni/

but... I don't know how it would be with a Eikaiwa company.

There are plenty of asian ALTs. That is, like your previous post said, they were a citizen of an english-speaking country.
When I started JET, in my first year, its was like I was the only white guy!
With a respectable level of Japanese, and English teaching certification, you'll be overqualified!
There are other jobs, right?