It seems that some people did not take my previous thread seriously, so I want to ask those who passed one or more of JLPT tests (or think they can), how long does it take to reach this level.

Please answer from your experience or give estimations based on your experience.

Saying "I passed JLPT1 after 2 years of study" is ambigious because it doesn't matter how many years but how much time you spend each day. If you learn for 1 hour a day for 2 years you spend the same time as someone who spends 4 hours a day for 6 months.

So please don't forget to say how much time you spent (or one has to spend) a day.

I passed JLPT2 in 1 year of study, living in Japan. That was 4 hours a day of formal study, obviously with tons of extra training and exposure from living in Japan and having Japanese friends.

However, I used no SRS or similar methods (just what the school supplied) and rarely did any homework at all. I also didn't force any exposure at all (didn't watch any TV because I didn't understand it, didn't read any books because I found them too hard).

I believe a person can go from scratch to passing JLPT2 in 6 months, by making it their full-time job. That is, spending about 8 hours a day using Japanese, by using smart techniques such as SRS-sentence mining etc. Of course, everything would need to be aimed at JLPT2, so the sentences should be JLPT2 sentences, kanji should be the 1000 or so kanji needed etc. Even at that point however, I believe said person would be able to pass but not get a very impressive score. 6 months simply isn't enough time to internalize all the things you need to know to properly be at the JLPT2 level. Since it would be a full-time job, I don't think any normal person could do it either since they have other important things to keep in mind. The person would get the certificate but would probably not actually be at the level JLPT2 is supposed to indicate.

I passed JLPT2 after 4 years of study. The first 3 years weren't anything to write home about. I didn't know quite how much I had to learn, but I knew I was kind of lost. Going to Japan was what really brought the whole thing together for me. By the time I got there my Japanese had deteriorated to the point where I couldn't conjugate verbs anymore, but I passed JLPT2 before I left Japan. It took 8 months of intensive study with good teachers. I was in beginner classes when I first got there, and then because I studied at least 4 hours per day over the summer they decided I was at an advanced enough level for the intermediate classes directed at the JLPT2.

I used an SRS with sentences from Unicom's ２級 Vocab and Grammar books, as well as supplemental sentences from どんな時どう使う日本語. I did directed listening practice with the Unicom ２級 listening book, and reading practice with the reading book in that same set.

I passed JLPT2 without finishing RTK, but I could read about 1200 kanji before I took the exam. I'm going back through RTK now for JLPT1 to put a nice cap on my kanji knowledge.

So, 3 years of screwing around and then 8 months of intense study. I can only be blamed so much for those 3 years though because the highest level Japanese my home university taught to was JLPT3. It was only because I got angry that I couldn't use my Japanese like I wanted to that made me study hard. I was successful. I came home from Japan with a good enough understanding to read and understand most things. I can play all my video games for fun without the use of a dictionary. I still study everyday to improve my Japanese further.

I know that if I hadn't done this, it would have been too easy for me to come home and forget about Japanese for the rest of my life. I didn't want that to happen. I wanted Japanese to be a part of my daily life. I really wanted to be bilingual, and I can say that 7 months after coming back from Japan I find myself doing all sorts of things with my Japanese just because I can.

The JLPT (any level) is a standardized test. Like any standardized test, it can be easily beaten, in much less time than it would take to legitimately learn the required Japanese. You can get copies of the tests for previous years, and there is a sentence mining project on this site for a very good series of test-prep books. Enter all the questions into your SRS, and review until you are ready (in cram mode if necessary). The only part of the test that would give you trouble is the listening portion, but you can get a zero for that entire section (you won't because its multiple choice--but let's say you did) and still pass if your scores on the rest of it are high enough.

I have not done this with the JLPT (I have no interest to), but my experience with other standardized tests is that the time it'd take would be measured in months even for the hardest levels. Your original estimate of 3 months for JLPT1 would be extremely difficult, but not impossible.

But don't think you'd be learning any Japanese at all in the process. In fact for this to work you'd have to really work hard to ignore the meaning of a question and focus on just how to select the right answer of the choices provided. If your goal is to get a piece of paper that says you "know" Japanese, then fine. But if your goal is to develop an ability to read, write, speak, and understand Japanese, you'd be wasting your time.

EDIT: The natural followup question would be "okay, if I just study Japanese without focusing on the test, how long would it take until I am able to pass JLPT?" In my experience the answer is there is no answer. I know people that have gotten to JLPT2 in just a few years. I've heard of people that have passed JLPT1 in as little as 5 years of study/living in Japan. I also know people that have lived in Japan for close to a decade and still can't pass the JLPT1, even though they study Japanese every day, have a spouse that only speaks Japanese, and have (in my eyes at least) native level fluency in the language. Why? Because when it comes time to take the test, they only crack open a test-prep book a few days before, and spend maybe just a couple hours reading through it. Let me say it again: the JLPT does not test your Japanese ability. It tests your ability to take the JLPT.

Mafried: There might be ways of gaming the JLPT tests but there's still no way that someone would be able to pass level 1 with 3 months of study.

I don't know how you could pass the test without having any real Japanese ability. The only ones who can do that are probably the Chinese students since they already know all the kanji and most of the compounds. So they can probably cram the rest, cross their fingers and get their piece of paper.:-) But I don't think that holds true for poor, ignorant 西洋人.

Quote:Let me say it again: the JLPT does not test your Japanese ability. It tests your ability to take the JLPT.

It's not true that the JLPT does not test your Japanese ability. It tests basic reading, reading comprehension and listening abilities. The best proof that it's relevant is probably that native Japanese speakers can pass it with ease. So everything (or almost everything) in the test is something that a real Japanese speaker would know.

The JLPT definitely tests Japanese ability. Just recognition of course, but still. If someone has "native fluency" but can't pass JLPT1, they are probably relying 100% on basic conversations they have had over and over, thus they lack vocabulary and reading ability. JLPT1 is really hard for someone studying the language, but for a native Japanese, it's extremely simple, and someone who is considered fluent should have no problem what so ever with the JLPT.

One year of (near) constant exposure to Japanese audio should be more than enough to pass the listening test. Except for some curveballs where the answer changes up to 4 times, you should be okay. And even those are no problem if you concentrate. When I came to Japan 10 months ago I was somewhere between Level 3 and 2 I guess (the new 3 maybe..). Now I'm near Level 1 (lacking mainly vocabulary), and I'm hardly trying. So anyone who puts some effort in and studies for maybe 2 years should be able to do it.

I passed JLPT2 last year, after over a year of study. I'm on JET, so I started in August two years ago. Study was done when I had downtime at school, I went to some rubbishy beginner class right at the start then dropped that after I found I was leap-frogging the class. Started RTK as soon as I got here, in tandem with JFBP books. (Don't buy them!) I had started an SRS about 6 months before the JLPT2.
Can't really quote how many hours, I'd imagine 10ish per week? I went to a summer school for 2 weeks, but it didn't really give me any visible progress in my Japanese...

Just took 1kyuu, but expect to fail. I've got other things going on, so is life!
Having said that, I found studying toward 1kyuu similar, if not easier than studying for 2kyuu. Perhaps because of the similar leap in difficulty?

mafried Wrote:The JLPT (any level) is a standardized test. Like any standardized test, it can be easily beaten, in much less time than it would take to legitimately learn the required Japanese. You can get copies of the tests for previous years, and there is a sentence mining project on this site for a very good series of test-prep books. Enter all the questions into your SRS, and review until you are ready (in cram mode if necessary). The only part of the test that would give you trouble is the listening portion, but you can get a zero for that entire section (you won't because its multiple choice--but let's say you did) and still pass if your scores on the rest of it are high enough.

I have not done this with the JLPT (I have no interest to), but my experience with other standardized tests is that the time it'd take would be measured in months even for the hardest levels. Your original estimate of 3 months for JLPT1 would be extremely difficult, but not impossible.

But don't think you'd be learning any Japanese at all in the process. In fact for this to work you'd have to really work hard to ignore the meaning of a question and focus on just how to select the right answer of the choices provided. If your goal is to get a piece of paper that says you "know" Japanese, then fine. But if your goal is to develop an ability to read, write, speak, and understand Japanese, you'd be wasting your time.

It's awesome that you're basically admitting that you don't know what you're talking about before you give your opinion. Because, you don't know what you're talking about.

I've taken mock JLPT tests in classes full of students before. I've known probably 40 people that have taken different pieces of it. Every single one of them, without fail, has done about how you would have expected they would do.

The people that were better at reading did better on the vocab/reading/grammar portions. The people that were better at listening/speaking did better on the listening portion. The people with better Japanese always did better than the people whose Japanese wasn't as good.

I'm not saying that JLPT is the be all/end all measure of ability. It isn't, and it doesn't claim to be. It's a test built for a specific purpose, to test literacy of students accurately as a precursor to further academic study. Every employer who uses the test as a gauge of ability knows this, and they realize its limitations.

There is no one test that's going to tell you exactly how good someone is at all Japanese. That's just the reality of testing. What the JLPT does for a lot of employers is establish an official baseline for applicants. They know they can toss out all the people JLPT1 or 2 or lower, however they like.

For people with good Japanese, passing the JLPT isn't that difficult. I can understand being annoyed by it if you're one of the rare people that for some reason does disproportionately awful on standardized tests, but in terms of requirements it is not egregious. It's $60, and the test is well-documented online.

The JLPT is a fairly accurate measure of ability. I did better on my mock exams as my overall Japanese got better. I could tell my Japanese was getting better by how often I had to use my dictionary, and how long it took me to read native Japanese stuff like news articles.

So it's not important for you that you have some proof of Japanese ability. That's fine, but don't act like everyone who takes it is searching for some sort of petty immature validation. That's not the case. A lot of us are wanting to make careers out of Japanese, and so do need to the certification. Others want to know that they are on the right track with their studies. You can get very valuable information about how well you know Japanese by paying the small fee and burning a Saturday. If all goes well, you get a piece of paper that is officially recognized by employers and educational institutions. At the very least, it's something to put on your résumé as proof of your ability. I can say I know Japanese all I like, but employers will rightly roll their eyes until they see some sort of hard proof it like a certification.

A certification isn't going to get you a job or anything flat out, but it sure helps in getting the interview.

I have also noticed that just in my personal life that people react differently when they find out I have a certification. There's a lot of people that like to act like they speak a foreign language when they really don't. There's also the issue that friends and family will maybe see your time investment in Japanese as a little more legitimate with a certification.

Erm I think you guys have crossed wires a little bit...

All mafried seems to be saying is that, like any test, you can beat it; because its a test, and has the limitations of a test. Your IQ score will go up each time you take an IQ test- not because you are getting smarter, but because you are getting better at taking the test. You can exploit these inherent weaknesses in tests to pass them.

There is nothing inherently inflammatory about this statement as far as I can see...

blackmacros Wrote:Erm I think you guys have crossed wires a little bit...

All mafried seems to be saying is that, like any test, you can beat it; because its a test, and has the limitations of a test. Your IQ score will go up each time you take an IQ test- not because you are getting smarter, but because you are getting better at taking the test. You can exploit these inherent weaknesses in tests to pass them.

There is nothing inherently inflammatory about this statement as far as I can see...

My point is that it's true to some extent, but not to the extent that mafried has implied. The test just isn't that flawed, and looking at it from my perspective it sounds like he's diminishing the accomplishment of the people that have passed the test.

I studied really hard for the JLPT. My Japanese got better as I studied more. I find the test correlates well to general Japanese ability. I passed because I did the work, and I learned a lot while doing it. I didn't pass because of some fluke in the test questions.

The JLPT is multiple choice, but the test is usually designed very very well. At the higher levels it's almost unfair that way. The differences between each of the answers is usually minimal. For instance, it's common for grammar questions to have 2 grammar points with exactly the same general meaning as answers. The difference being how they connect to the sentence, or the context of the sentence. On kanji questions, it's common for 2 or 3 of the answers to differ only by one radical. Kanji reading questions tend to differentiate the answers by extra う's. Listening questions are specifically designed so that the true answer to the question is buried or needs to be reasoned out based on what the people said. The answers are rarely simply given in the dialogue.

Test taking strategies will get you a few extra percent here or there, but for the most part it's not going to take someone from a 30% to a 70%. That's just not how the test is designed, and if mafried were to actually look at the tests or take them then he would know that.

Multiple choice tests are only really bad when they're poorly designed. Most teachers are really terrible at writing tests, and that's why multiple choice tends to be a poor indicator of ability most often. A test like the JLPT, though, where the questions are extremely carefully designed exhibits almost none of the common quirks of multiple choice tests.

Tobberoth Wrote:The JLPT definitely tests Japanese ability. Just recognition of course, but still. If someone has "native fluency" but can't pass JLPT1, they are probably relying 100% on basic conversations they have had over and over, thus they lack vocabulary and reading ability. JLPT1 is really hard for someone studying the language, but for a native Japanese, it's extremely simple, and someone who is considered fluent should have no problem what so ever with the JLPT.

I heard otherwise, my Japanese teachers said they found it extremely difficult and would never get 100%. I'm not sure if that was modesty, scare-tactics or whatever, but they wouldn't say it for no other reason.

My Japanese friends here were also shaking their heads when looking at a mock JLPT 1 exam. They said they surely wouldn't get 100 percent - but at the same time they didn't actually say it was "difficult".
Same as a high level vocab/grammar test in English, if that's your native language, I guess - it'll be easy but at some stage you'll find yourself stumped on whether a sentence is passive voice or active voice, or how to spell "parallel". Those kind of thing that for a native speaker are easy to DO, but not so easy to identify or explain (because native speakers do it automatically, it is jarring to see the language parsed and labeled on an exam paper)

As hard as these tests are, and having them being near impossible to get 100% on, for the JLPT1 you only need 70% which I am sure most intelligent Japanese people could manage ^^

I think baring people with really weak kanji, pretty much any Japanese person could pass the JLPT1, but I have had friends look at problems and not been sure of the answer.

I think 3 months is doable for someone who already knows kanji from their native language. In particular I have heard that people from Taiwan have the biggest kanji advantage when studying Japanese. (This was from 日本人の知らない日本語 btw. It's about a Japanese teachers experience teaching foreigners Japanese, but in comic form and all cutsey. Good stuff)

I passed JLTP2 last year and I found that for listening, that the questions are usually really easily or really hard. Assuming this is also the case of level 1, I think someone could come to get 60% for JLPT1 for listening in 3 months when you consider the free 25% from random guessing.

But still, unless you need it for business having a main goal of passing a test is pretty damn boring.

thermal Wrote:This was from 日本人の知らない日本語 btw. It's about a Japanese teachers experience teaching foreigners Japanese, but in comic form and all cutsey. Good stuff.

I've been meaning to buy this, but every time I go to the bookstore I forget about it. I also haven't been able to peak inside, is the rubi also printed? My reading skills of straight kanji just aren't there yet.

I have to agree with erlog. I don't think you can get high marks on JLPT tests by just learning how to pass the tests and not having any real ability.

Some multiple choice tests have one valid answer and the rest are obviously b.s., but JLPT isn't like that. Most of the questions and answers are written in such a way that you need to (quickly) show a good understanding of the point that they are trying to test.

It's not just the listening section that requires real Japanese ability.

- The kanji section tests the breadth of compounds that you can read, and to some extent write as you also have questions to choose between similar kanji that have the same readings.

- For the vocab section you need to be able to understand the appropriate use of words and expressions based on context.

- For reading, obviously you need vocab, and accurate comprehension.

- For grammar you need to know semantics, and be able to tell apart subtle nuances in similar grammar points based on context.

- For listening, like the reading only you need a good ear and more speed.

dat5h Wrote:

thermal Wrote:This was from 日本人の知らない日本語 btw. It's about a Japanese teachers experience teaching foreigners Japanese, but in comic form and all cutsey. Good stuff.

I've been meaning to buy this, but every time I go to the bookstore I forget about it. I also haven't been able to peak inside, is the rubi also printed? My reading skills of straight kanji just aren't there yet.

By rubi do you mean furigana? It has full furigana for everything people say in the comics, but not for what they think, which is usually simple and there isn't that much anyway. I think they don't have furigana to add to the thinky feel..ahem. Also, there is a title page, a short text concluding each section and a small test. These all don't have furigana.

So basically 95% of it has furigana.

vos, I dunno. You can say it requires real Japanese ability, but most of the people I have met and studied with who had either passed it or were taking it sucked at speaking and generally showed a real lack of understanding of Japanese. For example answers to questions would be very simple and not really answer the question.

thermal Wrote:vos, I dunno. You can say it requires real Japanese ability, but most of the people I have met and studied with who had either passed it or were taking it sucked at speaking and generally showed a real lack of understanding of Japanese. For example answers to questions would be very simple and not really answer the question.

Hehe, well it doesn't test speaking ability, and it doesn't test if you can talk about Japanese . Then again, my experience is that untrained Japanese themselves can't usually describe Japanese well either .

I know some people that passed 1kyuu and can read and understand lots, but can't speak at all.

I guess there is also a big difference in ability between someone who can barely squeeze a pass, and someone who can ace it.

thermal Wrote:vos, I dunno. You can say it requires real Japanese ability, but most of the people I have met and studied with who had either passed it or were taking it sucked at speaking and generally showed a real lack of understanding of Japanese. For example answers to questions would be very simple and not really answer the question.

I don't think that's specific to the JLPT. There are lots of people (including myself to some degree) that can read okay but can't speak very well at all.

Heck, I met someone a few weeks ago who has been in Japan for nearly a year studying at uni and was going for 2級 on Sunday, and they couldn't even ask いくらですか correctly (they mixed it up and asked いくつですか).


PS: I also agree with vosmiura, some of the questions on 2級 really do require you to understand the nuance of the Japanese, especially in the Reading comprehension section.
Simply learning kanji and vocab will not get you anywhere near that level. It will sure help for some of the other sections of the exam though.

JLPT 1 - 18-30 months
JLPT 2 - 9-15 months
JLPT 3 - 2-6 months
JLPT 4 - 1-3 months.

With 4 - 12 hours of studying a day.

ha ha, can't believe this same discussion is happening again ! Starting from zero japanese, in my opinion it is impossible to pass JLPT1 in under a year. In fact for a good student who studies hard, I think realistic minimum time frames are probably at least a year to pass JLPT2, and then at least another year to pass JLPT1 (in all likelihood considerably longer). Only a tiny percentage of japanese learners go on to attempt JLPT1. And of those people the vast majority have lived in japan for years and studied japanese for even longer. Sure stuff like an SRS can help, but not work miracles. You can still only absorb information at a certain rate.

To those people who think it can be done faster, I say go away and prove it. These discussions are kind of pointless anyway, who cares how fast it can be done by someone. What really matters is how much time YOU have, how you organize YOUR study, and how you can reach YOUR goal. I fear comparing yourself to some goal like passing JLPT1 within 1 year, is setting yourself up for failure and disappointment. Better to focus on learning japanese and enjoying your life, because in the long run we're all dead !

Adios.

MeNoSavvy Wrote:ha ha, can't believe this same discussion is happening again ! Starting from zero japanese, in my opinion it is impossible to pass JLPT1 in under a year.

Lol, well the host of this thread is gonna do this 'easy feat' in 3 months (!) he says, and he's determined. :O

I've taken levels 1, 2, and 3.

I took and easily passed level 3 in 2005.... at the time I'd had 3 years of university Japanese (33 credit hours... somewhere around 600 hours of actual class time... not counting time spent outside of class doing homework, etc), 1 semester of which was spent in Japan taking an intensive course (4 hours class/day). I didn't have to put in any studying to advance myself, really... I just took a few practice tests to get a feel for the test format.

Tried level 2 in 2006, but only managed to score a 211. I was still a full time student working 2 part time jobs at the time... my university didn't offer anything beyond 3rd year Japanese, so I was all on my own... with work and school, my study time didn't amount to much (MAYBE 1 hour a day... if I could manage to make time).

Passed level 2 in 2007.... I'd been back in Japan for 9 mos. at the time, studied during my down time at work - probably 1 - 2 hours/day.

I've taken level 1 twice... last December and then again this past weekend. Last December I scored a 222. If I managed to pass this weekend, it won't be by much. I still study probably 2 hours a day. My lack of vocabulary is my biggest problem.

And I'm definitely one of those people whose speaking ability isn't on par with what I can actually understand

I'd say that realistically, 4 hours a day for 6 months, starting from zero Japanese, would probably put you somewhere in the gap between levels 3 and 2. Intensive courses (4 hrs class time/day) in Japan typically aim at level 2 around the 1 year mark, level one as you hit 18 months to 2 years.

From scratch I'd say it would take about a year to pass the JLPT2, with a real level of commitment. I would throw any suggestions of doing it in less than 6th months as 'basically impossible.' That is, I believe significantly less than 1% of English speakers would be able to do it in 6 months despite a very very high level of commitment--even when using a good method.

Doing it by taking one course a semester at university level seems to take most people about 3-4 years. Someone who did a really good course, one with more credit hours, could do it considerably faster.