Jarvik7 Wrote:I very much doubt that it would be accepted, and even if a sleepy judge did let it by, you would never be able to use it.

A quick google finds this: The Minnesota Supreme Court ruled that a name change to "1069" could be denied, but that "Ten Sixty-Nine" was acceptable (Application of Dengler, 1979), and the North Dakota Supreme Court denied the same request several years before (Petition of Dengler, 1976). [3][4]

If they won't accept a number, which any literate person can read, write, and input into a computer, they won't accept a series of characters which to the average person looks like a squished bug.

It's just not true. Google isn't a lawyer, but keep googling and find the laws if you like. That case was probably determined as it was because 1069 could be intentionally confusing, not because they were symbols and not letters.

Prince is from Minn. too, his house is right down the road from where I grew up listening to him when his name was a series of squiggled lines. I know several people who do not have romanized names. Also, reading and writing and inputting into a computer have very little to do with how laws work. Even pronunciation has never been a part of naming conventions that I know. You can name your kid "patrickforthelooooooooose" and pronounce it "mike" and nobody can say "boo" about it.

Common-law no doubt. There is no way a judge would accept it for an official name change.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Common-law no doubt. There is no way a judge would accept it for an official name change.

One of my buddies legal name (not common law) is Joe Smith (name changed for privacy). He has the symbol inserted because there was another Joe Smith with his same birthday and he didn't want any identity mishaps. His checks say Joe Smith. His credit card doesn't, they couldn't do it, but his signature does. They are able to collect taxes under that name, which is the only bar I've ever heard of a judge using to establish feasibility for a name. His name isn't represent in text by a : followed by a ) but rather by an actual smiley face. If your computer can't insert one you just can't type his name, easy as that. Lots of people are discriminated on in the world unintentionally via technology, it really shouldn't affect a persons desires.

Edit: for some reason smilies are not showing. His name is Joe(smiley) Smith.

Old law no doubt. I wouldn't rely on it alone. You'd need to properly check the precedent since then, and see whether there have been any cases since which have had an effect on the ruling.

And even then, it's only Minnesota. There are 49 other states to try to change your name to something incomprehensible. Just ask Prince. (Or whatever the hell he calls himself now.) Either way, it's a (mostly) free country if you know which jurisdictions to shop.

As for kanji (well, hanzi in my case, because none of the readings are Japanese readings--they're all Chinese), I only use it for calligraphy for the reasons I explained before. I wouldn't use it for anything else, simply because I don't want people mangling my name any more than they already do. Hell, people mangle my name enough in English.

When I was in Japan, I made sure to bring cards with my name written out in English and in katakana, because I knew that I was in for it otherwise. It made check-ins a lot less painful than they would have been. They'd get the spelling right, and they'd get the pronunciation close enough.

Using kanji just would have been confusing. Sort of like spelling your name "Ghoti" and then getting mad when nobody calls you "Fish."

I think you can get away with anything in your hanko until you go to get it registered, particularly for the 実印. At that point, there are a number of requirements that must be met in terms of size, shape and design. Wikipedia has some good info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chop_(device)

I would imagine that what you put in your jitsu-in must be the name that you are registered under in the 住民票, your gaijin card, your health insurance and whatever else. I think your choice will be limited to katakana or the alphabet, since nothing else appears on those documents. In order to get a kanji name, Jarvik is saying that you need to be a naturalized citizen. I'd be curious to find out exactly what the rules and requirements are for foreigners who want to officially assign kanji to their name and/or register a jitsu-in.

I also find it strange that people put kanji in a different bracket from the other alphabets. After all, it is just an alphabet, albeit a very large and complex one. I don't see how having kanji in your name is "an honour" or special in any way.

I don't think we are in the 住民票... that's only for native-born Japanese IIRC. I think the law's changing though to allow us to be recognized.

And yeah, I have heard that you adopt kanji when you naturalize, but I can't confirm it. I haven't been able to come up with anything acceptable to do for my first name (Kevin). My friends have a ball with it.

coverup Wrote:I don't think we are in the 住民票... that's only for native-born Japanese IIRC. I think the law's changing though to allow us to be recognized.

I had been meaning to investigate this. Looks like you're right on the former. From Wikipedia:

Quote:Only Japanese citizens are listed on a jūminhyō; Japanese residents from other countries are recorded in a separate alien registration system. This two-tier resident registration system is a source of controversy within the foreign community in Japan[citation needed], particularly from international families where non-Japanese family members are not listed alongside Japanese family members as being part of the same household.

It is possible, however, to add a footnote in the "bikōran" (remarks) section to a Japanese spouse's jūminhyō indicating that their non-Japanese spouse is the de facto head of household (事実上の世帯主 ,jijitsu-jo no setainushi). This however is left to local governments to decide whether to grant this request.

Looks like I am destined to become a footnote...

(苦笑)

captal Wrote:Not sure where you guys are getting your info, but it's not true.

Sorry for the late reply.. no internet access at work.... but I think you misunderstood me. I meant that your hanko can have whatever you wish on it.... but that the name on documents/accounts usually has to match your gaijin card (which in turn matches your passport). As Jarvik said, you couldn't write the kanji you use for your name on an official document.

welldone101 Wrote:My name is my name...

Ditto. I'm of the same school of thought.... Sort of a write it in English or katakana... having kanji for my name seems awkward to me... not sure why... haha.. One of my friends did pick kanji for me though.... 椎菜, but I've always thought the combination was a little strange...



Foreigners aren't included on the 住民票..... because foreigners currently register under a different system. But I think including foreign residents on the 住民票 is one of the things that is supposed to change along with the new alien registration system.....

My 印鑑 is just my last name in katakana. Very boring and ugly. A few weeks ago I jokingly asked some of my first year students to write my first name, Neil, in kanji. I do it in katakana as ニール; they came up with 弐ゐ流. I give them props for including ゐ.

captal Wrote:I have a kanji hanko.　戸真須　(とます）Really there should be a dash since my last name is トーマス in katakana, but it wouldn't have fit anyway.

I like your name! It also sounds Japanese-ish とます

Aijin Wrote:Hmm, I don't know about kanji names not being for foreigners. I've met a handful of foreigners who had reached a level of proficiency in the language and culture that they decided that they deserved to finally use a kanji name, and I think that honor is very fair for many people. There are actually a lot of western names which can be translated very nicely into Japanese.

I agree, one of my good (white)friend is quite proficient has adopted a Chinese name which sounds really good and als has a good meaning. He uses it on all kinds of documents and stuff and quite some respect for it.

welldone101 Wrote:Off topic but going along with what Slivir and Aijin have mentioned. (Kanji names are not meant for foreigners and translating names into kanji)

My name is my name. I wouldn't ever translate it for anything serious. If somebody wants to write it phonetically in kanji that's fine with me, but I'd prefer if they just learned to pronounce it correctly and read it in my script. I've always been annoyed by the glib manner in which Americans (and now I see, Japanese) rewrite peoples names into their own script and pronunciation. "It only takes a few minutes more of genuine curiosity to find out how to pronounce a persons real name, so why not put forth the effort and do it," is what I think when I see my fellow Americans or Japanese mangling peoples true names. Of course a lot of people don't care that much when somebody misrepresents them, and that's their choice! But going along with that I think it's their choice and not ours and the world would be a better place if everybody believed it was a sign of respect to get somebody's name right.

I don't agree.
As respect: You don't see no Japanese or Chinese person in the US use kanji/hanzi to write their name right? They also have to write it in ABC, so why wouldn't this hold true other way around? You are in their country, so why not respect that and adopt their script.
And often it's just plain practical: Imagine you going to the bank in Japan. Now you want to apply for something and wrote your name, which is Brittany Kaprikowacsky, on a form and the person handling your case comes out to greet you and says:

"Hello nice to meet you, thank you for visiting our bank Ms... *looks at the name on the form... and goes: buu..bu-riii...t..tt...
Long pause till you say: That's bu-ri-ta-ni · ka-pu-ri-ko-wak-ku-su-ki, yea that's KA-PU-RI-KO-WAK-KU-SU-KI

It's just more practical when somebody sees your name, and instantly can read it. I remember going with my roommate to the police station to finish some registration in Shanghai, upon filling in his western name the police asks: You don't have a Chinese name? For them it's just more practical.

welldone101 Wrote:but I'd prefer if they just learned to pronounce it correctly and read it in my script.

That's quite arrogant, lot's of people just CAN'T pronounce it. A person at a counter in Japan where you are standing isn't gonna take some time just to 'learn and pronounce' your name in YOUR script just to satisfy you. You expect a Chinese or Japanese person in the US write their name in ABC so YOU can read it and pronounce it, but not willing to do so the another way around is kinda discriminating and lack of respect if you ask me...(no offense though)

shneen Wrote:But I think including foreign residents on the 住民票 is one of the things that is supposed to change along with the new alien registration system.....

Coverup mentioned this too. Where did you hear about it? Do you have any links with more info? (日本語でも)

My hanko says ジョンソン and was made for me befoe I got here. It's nothing special but since it's 5 characters, my hanko is a narrow oval instead of the usual circle. Makes stamping my name a pain sometimes because only the top half tends to stamp because of the design. I have tried and asked if I'm "stamping" wrong, but 関係ない.

wrightak Wrote:

shneen Wrote:But I think including foreign residents on the 住民票 is one of the things that is supposed to change along with the new alien registration system.....

Coverup mentioned this too. Where did you hear about it? Do you have any links with more info? (日本語でも)

I think it was one of the ideas being kicked around when the new alien registration law was being debated... Wikipedia right now says that it's one of the changes planned, but the Japan Times article that is cited doesn't specifically mention the juminhyo. So I might have misread something...

A more current article http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/n...620a3.html only mentions juki-net......

My name is Aaron, transcribed as アーロン which is how it's pronounced in the Netherlands, but now I usually use 阿論. Does anybody not get the reading immediately? I would be interested to know if this is the case.

My last name would be somewhat harder to have in easy-to-understand kanji, which is a shame. I'll just go but first name only, you know like Prince.

aaronvanvalen Wrote:My name is Aaron, transcribed as アーロン which is how it's pronounced in the Netherlands, but now I usually use 阿論. Does anybody not get the reading immediately? I would be interested to know if this is the case.

My last name would be somewhat harder to have in easy-to-understand kanji, which is a shame. I'll just go but first name only, you know like Prince.

Well, 阿論 is pronounced Aron, not Aaron, so it's still wrong. And of course, it doesn't change the fact than a Japanese person wouldn't realize it was your name unless it was painfully clear from the context.

well i'm making my name Blakeー＞ブレイクー＞舞麗狗

aaronvanvalen Wrote:My name is Aaron, transcribed as アーロン which is how it's pronounced in the Netherlands, but now I usually use 阿論. Does anybody not get the reading immediately? I would be interested to know if this is the case.

My last name would be somewhat harder to have in easy-to-understand kanji, which is a shame. I'll just go but first name only, you know like Prince.

Why would you use 論 as a kanji in your name?

Hashiriya Wrote:well i'm making my name Blakeー＞ブレイクー＞舞麗狗

狗?? Oh gosh...

welldone101 Wrote:Gee thanks :p You know in the US we can change our names to anything we like, including kanji, anytime we want. (in most states) So it's not really an honor that needs to be fair or not

Where can you use kanji in the US? I had to romanize my name when I moved to California.

welldone101 Wrote:My name is my name. I wouldn't ever translate it for anything serious. If somebody wants to write it phonetically in kanji that's fine with me, but I'd prefer if they just learned to pronounce it correctly and read it in my script.

Names have meaning. By using "translated" kanji all you are doing is selecting symbolic representation for what's already there. By using phonetically translated kanji you are doing no worse than what you do when you write your name in katana.

welldone101 Wrote:I've always been annoyed by the glib manner in which Americans (and now I see, Japanese) rewrite peoples names into their own script and pronunciation.

Interesting, so If you went to Thailand would you'd expect a Thai person to learn the English alphabet and English pronunciation specifically for the purpose of pronouncing your name correctly?

You know, depending on the person's age, there's a good chance they'll never pronounce your name right.

Aijin Wrote:

welldone101 Wrote:Gee thanks :p You know in the US we can change our names to anything we like, including kanji, anytime we want. (in most states) So it's not really an honor that needs to be fair or not

Where can you use kanji in the US? I had to romanize my name when I moved to California.

You can use it all you want... just not for anything civil/legal in nature

Musashi Wrote:As respect: You don't see no Japanese or Chinese person in the US use kanji/hanzi to write their name right? They also have to write it in ABC, so why wouldn't this hold true other way around? You are in their country, so why not respect that and adopt their script.
And often it's just plain practical: Imagine you going to the bank in Japan. Now you want to apply for something and wrote your name, which is Brittany Kaprikowacsky, on a form and the person handling your case comes out to greet you and says:

"Hello nice to meet you, thank you for visiting our bank Ms... *looks at the name on the form... and goes: buu..bu-riii...t..tt...
Long pause till you say: That's bu-ri-ta-ni · ka-pu-ri-ko-wak-ku-su-ki, yea that's KA-PU-RI-KO-WAK-KU-SU-KI

It's just more practical when somebody sees your name, and instantly can read it. I remember going with my roommate to the police station to finish some registration in Shanghai, upon filling in his western name the police asks: You don't have a Chinese name? For them it's just more practical.

I don't care that much what script you write it in I suppose. I'm just talking about people, who I have more than a 25 second relationship with, who bother to learn the actual correct pronunciation of my name.

Musashi Wrote:

welldone101 Wrote:but I'd prefer if they just learned to pronounce it correctly and read it in my script.

That's quite arrogant, lot's of people just CAN'T pronounce it. A person at a counter in Japan where you are standing isn't gonna take some time just to 'learn and pronounce' your name in YOUR script just to satisfy you. You expect a Chinese or Japanese person in the US write their name in ABC so YOU can read it and pronounce it, but not willing to do so the another way around is kinda discriminating and lack of respect if you ask me...(no offense though)

I'm not talking about your current world, I'm talking about the ideal world. One which we are and should continually be moving toward. 100 years ago if you came to the US with a foreign name from Asia they would rename you Smith. Now Asian people are free to romanize their name however they wish. Eventually hopefully that will change too and everybody will keep their name in whichever form they wish to write it in. One shouldn't get a names pronunciation from letters anyway. Most of the time they are just as much a representation of sound as a kanji/hanzi is. We just happen to memorize those representations, much the same as a Japanese memorizes the phonetics of a kanji. You should get a names pronunciation from the person. I want it to be polite to ask, ask again, get corrected, and eventually say it correctly.

shneen Wrote:Foreigners aren't included on the 住民票..... because foreigners currently register under a different system. But I think including foreign residents on the 住民票 is one of the things that is supposed to change along with the new alien registration system.....

I have a newspaper article clipping of this, I'll check it out at work today.

Tobberoth Wrote:

aaronvanvalen Wrote:My name is Aaron, transcribed as アーロン which is how it's pronounced in the Netherlands, but now I usually use 阿論. Does anybody not get the reading immediately? I would be interested to know if this is the case.

My last name would be somewhat harder to have in easy-to-understand kanji, which is a shame. I'll just go but first name only, you know like Prince.

Well, 阿論 is pronounced Aron, not Aaron, so it's still wrong. And of course, it doesn't change the fact than a Japanese person wouldn't realize it was your name unless it was painfully clear from the context.

阿呆の阿 has the right sound. And there's no difference between Aron and Aaron in English nor Dutch when it comes to pronunciation, but, not being Swedish, I can't speak for Sweden, of course.

@Musashi, why would I not use 論 in my name? Especially since the pronunciation is spot on.

welldone101 Wrote:I'm not talking about your current world, I'm talking about the ideal world. One which we are and should continually be moving toward. 100 years ago if you came to the US with a foreign name from Asia they would rename you Smith. Now Asian people are free to romanize their name however they wish. Eventually hopefully that will change too and everybody will keep their name in whichever form they wish to write it in. One shouldn't get a names pronunciation from letters anyway. Most of the time they are just as much a representation of sound as a kanji/hanzi is. We just happen to memorize those representations, much the same as a Japanese memorizes the phonetics of a kanji. You should get a names pronunciation from the person. I want it to be polite to ask, ask again, get corrected, and eventually say it correctly.

There's no such thing as the 'ideal' world, that's just what you visualise it would be. You seem to be missing the point. ABC as in 'your' world isn't the preferred means to write a name in Asian countries such as Japan and China. It is more than aesthetics and above all, practical. Saying things like: "You should get a names pronunciation from the person." is just being ignorant. Your pronunciation doesn't exist in another country and people have difficulties pronouncing it simply because the sound is alien to them. You wouldn't know how to pronounce a random Chinese even if you were told, let alone read it. And since you say it's a sound representation anyways, why wouldn't you adopt one, it's just in different 'letters' right?

aaronvanvalen Wrote:@Musashi, why would I not use 論 in my name? Especially since the pronunciation is spot on.

Err...because of the kanji meaning perhaps? Getting your name right involves more than picking the right sound

Just like

Hashiriya Wrote:well i'm making my name Blakeー＞ブレイクー＞舞麗狗

狗=hond
Niet echt mooi he
Tenzij ie superveel van honden houdt hehe

aaronvanvalen Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

aaronvanvalen Wrote:My name is Aaron, transcribed as アーロン which is how it's pronounced in the Netherlands, but now I usually use 阿論. Does anybody not get the reading immediately? I would be interested to know if this is the case.

My last name would be somewhat harder to have in easy-to-understand kanji, which is a shame. I'll just go but first name only, you know like Prince.

Well, 阿論 is pronounced Aron, not Aaron, so it's still wrong. And of course, it doesn't change the fact than a Japanese person wouldn't realize it was your name unless it was painfully clear from the context.

阿呆の阿 has the right sound. And there's no difference between Aron and Aaron in English nor Dutch when it comes to pronunciation, but, not being Swedish, I can't speak for Sweden, of course.

阿保 is still アホ, not アーホ. And yes, there's a huge difference between aaron and aron in Swedish and I'm pretty sure there should be one in English as well... after all, it makes no sense to pronounce double a's the same way as a single a. That's not really the point anyway, アーロン and アロン sound completely different in Japanese, and that's what you're aiming for.

Hashiriya Wrote:well i'm making my name Blakeー＞ブレイクー＞舞麗狗

"Pretty dancing dog"? I'm pretty sure I can't unsee that image.