Recently I've been doing a lot of thinking about this. When I first started using anki to study sentences about a year ago, most everyone seemed to think that its best to study sentences rather than vocabulary, so you can learn things in context.

But recently, I'm starting to think that this isn't the best idea.

I first began thinking about this while I was playing with my rubiks cube. Solving a rubiks cube quickly requires memorizing many algorithms (specific sequences of moves) that you must perform when you recognize specific cases. I know quite a few algorithms and can perform them very quickly. However, when a friend asked me to show him some slowly, I couldn't do it. I can perform them quickly, but if I try to do it slowly, my mind goes completely blank. I can run into the same problem if I try to perform a certain algorithm without first recognizing the appropriate case that it is supposed to solve. Sometimes this screws me up so badly that I find myself unable to perform the algorithm at all. Though I have performed them hundreds of times in the past, just slightly changing it up a little can completely ruin that memory for a short time.

My point with this is, that our brains make a lot of links between various information that we don't even realize. The context in which we learn something may have more weight than the information itself. If one piece of the puzzle changes, the whole thing can break down.

Most of the cards in my anki deck are sentences. In many of these sentences, I noticed that I haven't actually learned the vocabulary word that I wanted to learn in that sentence... I just learned the sentence itself! If I were to see a word in a different context, I wouldn't remember it.

I also have a lot of sentences imported from smart.fm, along with pictures. I have found that in many cases, I automatically remember the sentence just by seeing the picture. This is clearly a problem, because I'm simply memorizing something in association with a picture, not the information itself.

Looking through all of my cards, and asking myself how well I REALLY know all of the information in them... has left me extremely disappointed. Because I've realized that I don't know this info nearly as well as I thought I did. I'm successfully passing my reviews, but I still haven't necessarily learned the information that I intended to learn.

Zarxrax Wrote:Most of the cards in my anki deck are sentences. In many of these sentences, I noticed that I haven't actually learned the vocabulary word that I wanted to learn in that sentence... I just learned the sentence itself! If I were to see a word in a different context, I wouldn't remember it.

I found myself thinking the same thing recently. To be more specific, I feel like I understand the sentence as a whole but only have a vague or rough grasp of the meaning of individual words that it is composed of. (As an aside I don't really have this problem with readings; you either know it or you don't, there is no vagueness). You might be able to solve the problem by adding vocab cards as well, going from Kanji=>English meaning for vocab from your sentences. The problem with this is, the English meaning is only a rough equivalent. Which doesn't really solve the problem, because learning the sentence gives you a rough/equivalent grasp of the vocab too.

Having said that, maybe you're being a bit harsh on yourself when you think you wouldn't remember it at all in a different sentence? Usually context and the kanji itself give hints as to meaning.

Do you sentences have English translations? If so, that might make it easier for you to "know" the meaning without understanding the words.

The reason that it is better to have full sentences is exactly because it makes connections. It makes you associate a given word with the context it would make sense in, and allows you to recognize what other words it will be near. Perhaps even more importantly, it allows you to know the precise meaning of the word through context, rather than to only have a vague English gloss (though you could have Japanese word > japanese definition, but I think it's easier to test yourself on understanding a sentence than like memorizing a word's definition).

You're right that just having seen a word used in a sentence several times and remembering it in that context is not the same thing as having fully learned that word. But it's a very important step.

What is needed next is to see or hear it again many times used in different contexts. This is why it is crucial to spend a lot of time reading and listening to Japanese. The SRS alone isn't enough but this is also true of words learned in isolation and you don't get the additional benefits of practicing reading and knowing the context.

I've tried both ways and I've found sentences to be much more effective. The main disadvantage of using sentences is that creating the cards is much slower.

I'm 100% with Codexus. The problem isn't with using sentences instead of vocabulary cards, the problem is lack of exposure. It's also important to note that, at least for me, in 90% of cases, I will understand a word just fine in a completely different context as long as I've had it in my deck for a while. Maybe it's because I go J-J and not J-E. It just makes sense to me. I know what a word means in one context, so I simply apply that knowledge to any sentence I run into, and it's enough almost every time.

blackmacros Wrote:(As an aside I don't really have this problem with readings; you either know it or you don't, there is no vagueness)

I seem to even have trouble in this regard. When I see a sentence I can just remember the sentence without having to look at the individual kanji and thinking about their readings.
Cards where I make myself write the kanji when I see the reading help me a lot with this though.

Zarxrax Wrote:Most of the cards in my anki deck are sentences. In many of these sentences, I noticed that I haven't actually learned the vocabulary word that I wanted to learn in that sentence... I just learned the sentence itself! If I were to see a word in a different context, I wouldn't remember it.

I get this sometimes. The key is to have more than one sentences for each word. And to read lots. If you're having trouble, you can also drill the words by themselves(I don't really recommend SRSing them, though).

Codexus Wrote:You're right that just having seen a word used in a sentence several times and remembering it in that context is not the same thing as having fully learned that word. But it's a very important step.

What is needed next is to see or hear it again many times used in different contexts. This is why it is crucial to spend a lot of time reading and listening to Japanese. The SRS alone isn't enough but this is also true of words learned in isolation and you don't get the additional benefits of practicing reading and knowing the context.

I've tried both ways and I've found sentences to be much more effective. The main disadvantage of using sentences is that creating the cards is much slower.

This.

The exception for me is that sentence cards are fast and easy to make. Don't know why everyone says they are slow.

Zarxrax Wrote:Most of the cards in my anki deck are sentences. In many of these sentences, I noticed that I haven't actually learned the vocabulary word that I wanted to learn in that sentence... I just learned the sentence itself! If I were to see a word in a different context, I wouldn't remember it.

Yes, I've noticed the same thing. Changed my cards since then. They now look like this. I only read the sentences if I can't remember what the featured word/expression means.

iSoron Wrote:Yes, I've noticed the same thing. Changed my cards since then. They now look like this. I only read the sentences if I can't remember what the featured word/expression means.

Mmmm, good idea.

The problem is that you're lying to yourself about how well you know the sentences. If you can't go through every word in the sentence and recall both its meaning and reading then you mark that card wrong. It's very simple. Understanding the meaning is only a small part of what you're testing.

You're testing 4 things with sentence cards:

1) Meaning of sentence.
2) Meaning of individual grammar points.
3) Meaning of all individual words.
4) Readings of all kanji words.

If you get any one of these things wrong when you're working through your flashcards then you mark the card wrong. Reviewing is not simply reading the sentences. You have to pay attention, and specifically think about each of the 4 things you're testing to see if you can recall them.

The problem isn't with the sentences, it's with your method. Everything we know about memory points to context being necessary for any sort of success. RTK builds context for the characters, and that's how you recall them. The sentences give you context so that you can use context clues to figure out a word you may not be able to recall right away. Eventually, when you know things well enough, you don't need the context clues just like you don't need your RTK story.

Sentences also have the advantage of testing more than one vocabulary at once, as well as testing grammar depending on the sentences you've chosen. It's extremely difficult to argue that less context is the way to go. That just makes everything so much harder than it needs to be because you're rarely given a word without some sort of context in real life.

Doing sentence flashcards is a more efficient version of just reading a lot while you look up words in a dictionary.

As someone said, the problem Zarxrax is experiencing is probably due to lack of exposure. In my opinion, SRS isn't supposed to teach you words. It just helps you learn them from context.

I guess you can't define all words you use in your mother tongue. But you can always come up with a bunch of realistic dialogues that illustrate the usages of a word, though you may not be able to explain the grammar rules behind them. Apparently that's because you don't know the meanings and functions of words per se. Native speakers are just familiar with words and know when, where, and how people use them.

I think what SRS is good at is helping you efficiently develop the intuitions native speakers have through immersion. I mean, if you already put a sentence into SRS, you'll be less likely to miss sentences similar to it when you hear/read them in real life and more likely to understand what speakers means correctly. I don't think your cards in Anki directly deepen your understanding of words no matter how many times you review them. They just teach you very rough ideas and improve the chances that you catch and understand sentences in real stuff.

Shouldn't we be doing 'Japanese Word' -> 'English Definition' for the first 5000 or 6000 most common words before moving onto sentences and learning the contexts?

Going straight into sentences from RTK sounds way too hard.

I too was troubled about the problem of remembering the sentences, rather than the vocabulary. For instance, if I have a sentence that means "Miss Tanaka bought a handbag in Osaka", I might totally forget how to recognize the word for handbag, but remember what Miss Tanaka bought in Osaka, and be able to read the sentence just fine.

So my theory is to have both vocabulary cards and sentence cards. If a sentence contains words you don't know, add vocabulary cards for those words. This ensures ability to read the words with no external hints. Sentences are for practicing grammar and getting used to the way words work in context.

scuda Wrote:Going straight into sentences from RTK sounds way too hard.

It really isn't. And it's a lot more interesting.

erlog Wrote:The problem is that you're lying to yourself about how well you know the sentences. If you can't go through every word in the sentence and recall both its meaning and reading then you mark that card wrong. It's very simple. Understanding the meaning is only a small part of what you're testing.

I'm not sure that's actually what's happening here, though. I do just what you suggest: I don't mark a card right unless I correctly remember the meaning and reading of every word, and yet I still often have the same problem as Zaxrax. I think what's happening is that sometimes when we see a word we "know" in an unfamiliar sentence, our memory of it is too weak to be recalled without the context of a sentence we're intimately familiar with.

I don't think it's anything to be too worried about, though. Whenever I encounter a word I've already learned but don't recognize and then look it up, suddenly my memories of its usages and all the sentences I've SRSed that contain it come flooding back. In other words, even if you don't know some of the words you've learned as well as you would like, they're still anchored in your brain to some extent, they just need to be reinforced by more exposure as others have suggested.

Corodon Wrote:I too was troubled about the problem of remembering the sentences, rather than the vocabulary. For instance, if I have a sentence that means "Miss Tanaka bought a handbag in Osaka", I might totally forget how to recognize the word for handbag, but remember what Miss Tanaka bought in Osaka, and be able to read the sentence just fine.

So my theory is to have both vocabulary cards and sentence cards. If a sentence contains words you don't know, add vocabulary cards for those words. This ensures ability to read the words with no external hints. Sentences are for practicing grammar and getting used to the way words work in context.

This is what I do. Namely I study vocabulary first, priming the pump with writing practice which cements the reading in my head, and then stocking the empty space with examples of the word in context (sentences).

Doing only sentences and expecting to absorb everything by context alone (when you often don't understand any given part of a sentence) is, in my opinion, inefficient.

Corodon Wrote:I too was troubled about the problem of remembering the sentences, rather than the vocabulary. For instance, if I have a sentence that means "Miss Tanaka bought a handbag in Osaka", I might totally forget how to recognize the word for handbag, but remember what Miss Tanaka bought in Osaka, and be able to read the sentence just fine.

If you can't remember what "handbag" means when you come across it in another sentence, why don't you add the sentence to the existing card? Putting it on the back side might help you recall the meaning the next time you see the word in another sentence.

Even if you check yourself on reading & understanding of every word, your memory of the context still comes into play.

For example I often read a word correcly because I remember the readings of the kanji, and I remember what it means because I remember the context. In this way I did not exercise my ability to remember the meaning of the word outside of this sentence.

Another example is where I already think about a word before I even got to that point of the sentence. ”Ahh... this is the sentence with that long word 承り (うけたまわり) that means 'undertake' ". I'll think of that before I've even finished reading the first few words of the sentence. In this example I'm not exercising my ability to read the kanji, because I already know what it is before I've even seen it.

iSoron Wrote:

Zarxrax Wrote:Most of the cards in my anki deck are sentences. In many of these sentences, I noticed that I haven't actually learned the vocabulary word that I wanted to learn in that sentence... I just learned the sentence itself! If I were to see a word in a different context, I wouldn't remember it.

Yes, I've noticed the same thing. Changed my cards since then. They now look like this. I only read the sentences if I can't remember what the featured word/expression means.

I've been doing something similar, only, sans English.

scuda Wrote:Shouldn't we be doing 'Japanese Word' -> 'English Definition' for the first 5000 or 6000 most common words before moving onto sentences and learning the contexts?

Going straight into sentences from RTK sounds way too hard.

You don't really need that many words before going J-J. This is especially true if you're getting your first sentences from pre-made sources.

kazelee Wrote:

iSoron Wrote:

Zarxrax Wrote:Most of the cards in my anki deck are sentences. In many of these sentences, I noticed that I haven't actually learned the vocabulary word that I wanted to learn in that sentence... I just learned the sentence itself! If I were to see a word in a different context, I wouldn't remember it.

Yes, I've noticed the same thing. Changed my cards since then. They now look like this. I only read the sentences if I can't remember what the featured word/expression means.

I've been doing something similar, only, sans English.

scuda Wrote:Shouldn't we be doing 'Japanese Word' -> 'English Definition' for the first 5000 or 6000 most common words before moving onto sentences and learning the contexts?

Going straight into sentences from RTK sounds way too hard.

You don't really need that many words before going J-J. This is especially true if you're getting your first sentences from pre-made sources.

Unless you have a reliable source of beginner or intermediate texts in Japanese that provide Japanese words and Japanese definitions for those words for non-natives-- non of which exist that I know of, doing Japanese --> Japanese, regardless of it's perceived effectiveness, is largely a waste of time.

You can spend the time you'd otherwise spend deciphering definitions and/or searching for them in Japanese dictionaries and trying to distill them into understandable chunks of information simply studying a well-organized list of Japanese --> English words and putting those into Anki. The benefits will come earlier and you'll probably understand better anyway. Doing Japanese --> Japanese is fine, if you're high enough level and have the time it takes to do it, but I think that some people think this is more effective than it is simply because they aren't getting enough exposure elsewhere.

I tried Japanese --> Japanese for a while and discovered that Japanese --> English was far more effective for the time I spent and now I largely consult Japanese sources only when I want to clarify the meaning of a word or learn about its origin.

To each his own, but I will say that translation these days, Japanese --> English specifically is quite advanced.

iSoron Wrote:

Zarxrax Wrote:Most of the cards in my anki deck are sentences. In many of these sentences, I noticed that I haven't actually learned the vocabulary word that I wanted to learn in that sentence... I just learned the sentence itself! If I were to see a word in a different context, I wouldn't remember it.

Yes, I've noticed the same thing. Changed my cards since then. They now look like this. I only read the sentences if I can't remember what the featured word/expression means.

That's similar to what I have, except with J-definitions and example sentence on the back side. Not on all cards though, just words I feel I should remember better.

The thing is, you shouldn't just restrict yourself to what Khatz says. Experiment, find what works best for you.

scuda Wrote:Shouldn't we be doing 'Japanese Word' -> 'English Definition' for the first 5000 or 6000 most common words before moving onto sentences and learning the contexts?

Going straight into sentences from RTK sounds way too hard.

5000 words before starting sentences!? No way! You can start reading sentences with just a few words.

Again, this is one of those many roads to fluency discussions. We each have our own way. Each comes with it's own strengths.

I do a little like iSoron on my vocabulary cards. The exceptions for mine are: They're specifically set up as Vocabulary cards. They're both dictation and reading cards. I have the sentence there next to the word. Not knowing other parts of the sentence just means I'll mark the card difficult.

To the original poster, perhaps you can have Sentence mining cards that are there for sentences. These come from real texts like movies, shows, novels, manga, etc. On those, the idea of knowing the sentences follow a bit what Erlog says for passing or failing. I do my sentence cards a bit different cause I'm taking a different viewpoint. However, based on your post, you're doing this fine anyway since you recall the sentence at hand fairly well.

For vocabulary cards, well, the sentence is there to give context to the word. It's in support, so don't take as much time with the sentence. I only write out the vocabulary word, and want 100% perfection on it's pronunciation while the rest of the sentence has more wiggle room.

I know it sounds silly to have four decks. However, I think that treating vocabulary, kanji, grammar as limited learning aids to the no limit, no real rules to explain concept of native sentences has been helpful. I only need so many Kanji cards (I'm limiting it to the 3007 of RTK3, of which 2550 are active), Vocabulary cards (6000 from iKnow of which only 2200 are active), and Grammar cards (1300 from Tae Kim and Kanken master of which 750 are active). These cards have sentences in them, but they're not sentence cards. To make things simple I'll start referring to them as learning cards.

No, my sentence cards have no limit. Yeah, I want to know what each part and the whole means not only to the sentence but to the context of where it came from. I'm not using these to learn vocabulary or grammar or kanji. However, new kanji or vocabulary popping up means I can add it to the learning cards above.

In addition, I think one can use sentence cards in different way. I'm currently using sentence cards to get 90% to 100% comprehension of the show they come from. For these sentence cards, it's been Kanji Sentence, Kana Sentence and Audio plays for question. I just have to type it in and understand every part of the sentence for the question. That's right, I'm treating it like it's a TV show with subtitles. I don't care about if I knew how to write out the sentence from memory, as it would not have been necessary if I were watching the show. That's what my vocabulary and kanji cards are for anyway.

For two shows so far, this has been a great success. Now I watch the show without subtitles or listen to it on my iPod (broken into random 3:30 segments) and I know all of it. Plus, it's hasn't been boring despite multiple viewings/listening. Hell, I can remember stretches of dialogue.

Later, I can change it up and remove the kana from the question side and put it in on the answer side. This'll help when I decide to also start putting sentences from written sources in then.

Anyway, it's just one way, and probably won't work for everyone. Plus I'm sure I'll change it up myself as time goes on.