I've finished RTK1, and am waiting for RTK2 to arrive in the post; I've been spending the free time finishing off my SRS and immersing myself in that long neglected grammar.
Really, I'm completely unsure of which method to pursue next. I'm hearing so many negative comments about RTK2 that I want to look at another method, but I have no idea which one. I have always wanted to learn the thousands of compounds included in RTK2, as I've seen it as a great way to learn Kanji and vocab at the same time. But now I'm hearing so many people saying that it's pointless and you should learn vocab and compounds as you come across it. I need methods and direction. Lay it on me.

That's all step by step shown to you at: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com

I would suggest reading a lot on that site before you go any further. I spend a 2 days just reading various things on that site, and it had me convinced. It was the best turning point in my life, and I made a tremendous progress in these about 4 months I have been doing his method.
And IT IS FUN!!!!!!!!!!!

-Mesqueeb

Mesqueeb Wrote:That's all step by step shown to you at: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com

I would suggest reading a lot on that site before you go any further. I spend a 2 days just reading various things on that site, and it had me convinced. It was the best turning point in my life, and I made a tremendous progress in these about 4 months I have been doing his method.
And IT IS FUN!!!!!!!!!!!

-Mesqueeb

He is completely right. Complete immersion in a language is the quickest way to learn. However, I think one can learn even quicker by immersing themself and learning grammar etcetera at the same time. Just think, he suggests learning phrases and grammar by listening and watching things thousands of times, again and again. Just imagine how much quicker you would learn if you listened again and again, and learned grammar, vocab and Kanji at the same time; you'd be a gun. I pursued a method similiar to this a while back, but was 'young and impressionable' and just stopped pursuing media as much. I'll certainly try to incorporate far more media after reading this, and will continue to SRS everything.

Mesqueeb Wrote:That's all step by step shown to you at: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com

I would suggest reading a lot on that site before you go any further. I spend a 2 days just reading various things on that site, and it had me convinced. It was the best turning point in my life, and I made a tremendous progress in these about 4 months I have been doing his method.
And IT IS FUN!!!!!!!!!!!

-Mesqueeb

I'm grateful that I've learned so many good methods and such at this point in my life (16 years old), I can use these techniques for Japanese and every language I learn for the rest of my life. 非常に良いよね！

Mesqueeb Wrote:That's all step by step shown to you at: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com

I would suggest reading a lot on that site before you go any further. I spend a 2 days just reading various things on that site, and it had me convinced. It was the best turning point in my life, and I made a tremendous progress in these about 4 months I have been doing his method.
And IT IS FUN!!!!!!!!!!!

-Mesqueeb

Half an hour and I'm very converted. It seems ridiculous that I haven't been completely immersing myself. How was I ever expecting to gain fluency without complete exposure? While I won't pursue his method of 'Picking everything up as you go along... I'll certainly be listening and reading the hell out of everything always while I study my grammar, Kanji and vocab. Thanks Mesqueeb, owe you one (maybe ten thousand).

Eheh thecite you are so right about those techniques...I'm seventeen and I'm redoing rtk thx to the summer holydays... I'm at beginner-intermediate stage but for now I'm too lazy for all the immersion thingXD.

Glad you like it. ^^

I can't believe I haven't found these simple learning methods earlier.

I laugh at the time when I was doing this 100-kanji in 10 days book. I laugh at the time when I wanted to learn Japanese but was still watching english movies every day.

I will anki everything for the rest of my life! And I know 100% sure I will study Korean in the future. It does not have any kanji, so without the kanji it's only the AJATT method, you skip the RTK part! It looks soooo simple! Like straight into the fun!!! Japanese seems so simple for me now, what will it be with Korean? I guess I can get fluent in 1 year with Korean.

Going to read some manga now!

-Mesqueeb

thecite Wrote:I've finished RTK1, and am waiting for RTK2 to arrive in the post; I've been spending the free time finishing off my SRS and immersing myself in that long neglected grammar.
Really, I'm completely unsure of which method to pursue next. I'm hearing so many negative comments about RTK2 that I want to look at another method, but I have no idea which one. I have always wanted to learn the thousands of compounds included in RTK2, as I've seen it as a great way to learn Kanji and vocab at the same time. But now I'm hearing so many people saying that it's pointless and you should learn vocab and compounds as you come across it. I need methods and direction. Lay it on me.

RTK2 does not have a method in it. It only has researched groupings, it's up to you to come up with the method. The supposed method is mnemonics. Personally I read the first page, then put it back on the shelf and just started reading Harry Potter. I know lots of readings now and I didn't have to memorize (intentionally) a single one!

Harry Potter in Japanese? ^^

Why does everyone read Harry Potter in Japanese? I really don't get it... The books are boring enough in English, the language they were written in... why not expose yourself to actual Japanese (not just the language, but culture etc as well) by reading real Japanese books instead?

Tobberoth, you said the problem itself, the book was boring for you. If you don't like it in one language, it's not going to magically get more enjoyable in another. For others, they not only read it in English, they read it two or more times in addition to seeing the movie in the theaters and watching it on DVD. Is it a stretch that it would be enjoyable to them still when in Japanese?

It's like watching a Pixar or Spiderman movie in Japanese. You already know what's going on, so you just watch for fun. You're not going to stop the movie and look up each word.

Better a fake Japanese book you finish than a real Japanese book that goes unread because of boredom.

That said, reading novelizations of Japanese Dramas and Movies you liked are good. Reading the books that became Japanese dramas and movies are good as well. Understanding what's going on helps get through a book. Don't use it as a crutch your entire time, eventually you want to be able to read a new book and follow along and enjoy it.

**yeah, yeah, yeah, it sounds like AJATT advice ... oh wait, it is**

I have a similar question to the original poster, about what to do after finishing RTK1. Currently I'm only about halfway through the book, but doing 30-40 a day, I'll hopefully be finished in another 1.5-2 month. After reading through the information in the forums, my plan is to focus on pairing up kanji with the words & sentences I already know and learning the pronunciations through vocabulary.

But I am wondering if it would be worth buying the RTK2 book as a reference, for lists of compounds and pronunciations, etc? I'm guessing 'no', that I'll get enough of that through learning sentences as well.

Also, it is hard for me to tell when I look at the kanji in untranslated sentences... are most words in the kunyomi, with an occasional word in onyomi? Or are onyomi words pretty frequent? And how do you know when you've come across an onyomi word? It sounds like the onyomi is used almost as a third alphabet to spell out words?

Everyone learns differently. What I have done with RTK2 is to use it to build vocabulary. I usually put Heisig's example word into an SRS. But then, I search for all the common words with this Kanji and reading. Then I use Google to get an idea which words are the most common. I try to add the two or three most common words according to Google into my SRS in addition to Heisig's example.

I am not in any real hurry, as I also to read some Japanese every day as well. Currently, I am on frame 1716. I have about 3300 words in my "onyomi" deck. Anyway, it works for me, but of course, "your mileage may vary."

Here are some options post RTK-1, not including the movie method-- there's a thread for that on the message board-- just search for it and you'll find it... that's a whole other discussion, but it can also be very useful if you want to conquer on-yomi. Or:

(links provided to sites where there are previews available.)

1. RTK2, and whatever coping strategy you want to adopt for that. You only get readings, sometimes obscure vocab. Sometimes it pushes odd readings, no context, etc. Search the forums for Japanese Keywords as well. (I didn't particularly like it's method of dealing with kun-yomi, or the lack of context.)

2. Do RTK3 and keep doing English keywords for kanji you'll probably never see... unless you're a geologist or a botanist.

3. Kanji in Context: No sentences for some kanji (seems to be random), requires higher level of grammar ability sometimes, not for beginners, but the reference book is very good. Check the thread on the message board for more info. Preview here:
http://www.thejapanshop.com/home.php?cat=347

4. 2001 Kanji Odyssey: lots of sentences, but they're long, can be oddball, and they only cover 1,100 kanji. (3rd volume is in the works with sentences to cover the rest?) The books follow a frequency list, though, and it does work pretty well. (My own personal bias.)
http://www.coscom.co.jp/ebook/e-2001kanji.html

5. The Basic Kanji Book series (only gets you ~1000 kanji.) Not cheap, but lots of drills spread over 4 volumes. (Anybody use this and can give feedback on it?)
http://www.thejapanshop.com/product.php?...=63&page=1

6. smart.fm -- use some of the lists people have put together there, drill on the site for a while, and then import them into Anki, because smart.fm's SRS isn't very good. But the colors and such are less boring than Anki, and it takes the pain out of the initial reviews.
http://smart.fm

7. 例文で学ぶ漢字と言葉 -- gets you to 2kyuu in JLPT (again ~1000 or so kanji), but no English help, you need a certain level of grammar, etc. etc. Written by the same guy who wrote Kanji in Context, by the way.
http://www.bk1.jp/product/02602603

8. 日本語総まとめ問題集 [2級漢字編] (新書) -- Jarvik7 recommended this series. The book looks like fun. Based on signs and things people actually see. Also has sentences. Looks like it's based off of JLPT 2kyuu again, so I'm *guessing* it'll get you ~1,000 kanji again. (No basis in reality on that, just a guess based on JLPT level.) Link takes you to amazon.jp, where you can see a preview.
http://is.gd/1eKhs

9. 実力アップ!日本語能力試験2級漢字単語ドリル -- this is the UNICOM JLPT 2 kyuu kanji book. It's also full of sentences as well. It's not bad, but it'll probably require a certain level of Japanese proficiency that a beginner just doesn't have. is.gd link is where you can buy it (amazon.jp), japanshop link is where you can preview it (they're out of stock).
http://is.gd/1eKqp
http://www.thejapanshop.com/product.php?...268&page=1

Looking at a lot of these books, they aren't really geared towards the beginner. They're more geared towards someone who has at least passed or can pass JLPT level 3. If you're just starting out in Japanese it might make more sense to start with a basic Japanese text, and study that first before moving on to a kanji book.

Or you can just do whatever you want, really. The books are just guides. There's no ironclad rule that says you have to do X to succeed. Some books are better for some people than others, while other books are total mismatches for other people.

And some people do best just reading Harry Potter.

Tobberoth Wrote:Why does everyone read Harry Potter in Japanese?

Pros:
- People like Harry Potter
- If you already know the story, it's not a problem if you can't understand some parts. You can still enjoy the rest without getting lost.
- It's an easy choice. Choosing a good book to read is not easy when you have to order online and your Japanese isn't that hot. So people are naturally going to choose something that's already familiar to them.
- It's an obvious milestone. Other Japanese learners are reading it too. So you can compare yourself to others. Also even normal people are going to know what you're talking about if you say you're reading Harry Potter in Japanese, only crazy otakus will know who 涼宮ハルヒ is

Cons:
- A book is better in its original language.
- Reading something that you already know is going to be less motivating than something new.
- Harry Potter isn't such an easy book to read. There are lots of easier children's books that could be more appropriate to beginners.
- Some people seem to think a translated book isn't normal Japanese. I don't have the Japanese ability nor the experience to know if that's true or not. I never noticed that books translated from Japanese are different than others so why should the reverse be true? After all they are translated by professional native speakers.

Nukemarine Wrote:It's like watching a Pixar or Spiderman movie in Japanese. You already know what's going on, so you just watch for fun. You're not going to stop the movie and look up each word.

Why look up words? This problem comes out of peoples inability to just let go. "man, there's a word in this sentence which I don't recognize, I better stop reading because this isn't Harry Potter." Who cares? Keep reading. It's not any harder to read a new book than it is to read Harry Potter, people just has this idea that you'll understand more because you've already read the book in English. Fact is, it doesn't matter all that much. I just finished a book called ドロップ, really good stuff (it has been made into a live action movie as well recently). At first, I found it quite challenging and was affraid that I wouldn't understand enough to follow along with the story. Instead of trying to look up words and such boring stuff, I just kept reading. And guess what, I understood way more than enough to enjoy the story, without having read it in English before and without it being a book for kids. In fact, I understood more than 90% of what was going on at all times in the later half of the book.

People read Harry Potter because they are afraid of reading actual books in the target language, not because it would actually be harder or less enjoyable. Let me ask you this, what do you REALLY think you will enjoy the most? A book for children about a magical British boy, or a book about a Japanese teen who wants to become a 不良, a story that is actually based on real life? The first book will teach you about the culture of a magical UK which doesn't exist, the second one will give you an insight (although dramatic) into modern Japanese society. I don't know about you guys, but I think it's clear what will be most enjoyable for most people studying Japanese.

Tobberoth Wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I think it's clear what will be most enjoyable for most people studying Japanese.

Don't make assumptions about other people's taste. Your book doesn't seem very interesting to me. Fortunately for me, there are a lots of Japanese fantasy books.

Codexus Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I think it's clear what will be most enjoyable for most people studying Japanese.

Don't make assumptions about other people's taste. Your book doesn't seem very interesting to me. Fortunately for me, there are a lots of Japanese fantasy books.

If you're more interested in a make-belief UK than Japan, why study Japanese when you can study old english?

I think the assumption is quite safe to make. People read Harry Potter in Japanese because they think it will be simple, not because they can't find a billion more interesting things in Japanese.

Tobberoth Wrote:If you're more interested in a make-belief UK than Japan, why study Japanese when you can study old english?

It's not the UK part that I find interesting but I'll take a fun fantasy book over a boring real life story even if it means I have to read a translated English book. But I prefer to read English books in English and Japanese books in Japanese.

Codexus Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:If you're more interested in a make-belief UK than Japan, why study Japanese when you can study old english?

It's not the UK part that I find interesting but I'll take a fun fantasy book over a boring real life story even if it means I have to read a translated English book. But I prefer to read English books in English and Japanese books in Japanese.

It was nothing but an example. The point is that even if you like Harry Potter in English for some reason, there's no reason to read it in Japanese. Finding interesting Japanese literature isn't hard, and will definitely feel more interesting for most people studying Japanese, one has to assume the interest in Japanese has impact on other interests. Your interest in fantasy over real-life isn't really relevant at all (though I personally think it's a pretty childish distinction to make, whether a book is fantasy or "real life" has no impact on how interesting or good it can be, regardless of how vivid your fantasy is. A movie doesn't have to include guns to be action-filled. A fantasy book can be just as boring and mundane as any other book).

Well, I mostly agree with you but I understand why people would still choose to read Harry Potter in Japanese. After all, it's not like that's the only novel they'll ever read in Japanese (I hope).

Codexus Wrote:Well, I mostly agree with you but I understand why people would still choose to read Harry Potter in Japanese. After all, it's not like that's the only novel they'll ever read in Japanese (I hope).

That's certainly true. I just think it's 残念 that many many users on this forum seem to read Harry Potter in Japanese simply because everyone else is doing it, they are simply not considering the possibility that reading something "actually Japanese" could be just as easy and maybe a lot more interesting.

I don't see some hidden army of people reading Harry Potter. I see a few people mentioning that they've read it. So what? It's their life. Let them read it. If it helps them learn Japanese, that's all that matters.

This is the most pointless discussion I've seen in a while... right up there with "Can I pass the JLPT in 3 months?"

It's just two different, and both valid opinions here. I personally agree with Tobberoth myself since I am interested in the culture of a language I learn, and I think everyone should be interested in the culture of the language they're learning.

But it is their life after all, if they want to read something about a magical pom in UK then that's their choice =D.

When I get to that level of proficiency I would never lay a hand on the greats like War and Peace, 1984, Brave New World etc. I don't even know what books yet, but I'm sure there are tonnes of books I want to get my hands on when I get there.

I heard from my teacher that Japanese favour the English translation (R. Tyler) of the Tales of Genji over the modern Japanese version. I'm not sure if he was joking or not. But I think I'd get bored as hell on Genji, his character pisses me off , ***** whore .

I thought the point was that reading something you know already is easier to read, so you can use it to advance your reading level first.