@wio_dude: ah, I see. I guess that's true. There are inevitably things along the way that aren't fun.

tenricefieldsglue Wrote:Good idea. This Sunday evening I'm going to report my progress in this thread. Feel free to join in.

So far I've reviewed 1700 cards and added 111 new ones. That means 44 kanji a day to be finished within two weeks. My next report will be on Wednesday.
Good luck Ampharos64 and Drabant!

I'm on Frame 1400, haven't done for today yet. I've been trying to do my reviews by saying the primitive elements aloud, just writing down the newer ones, which is faster, and novel enough that it makes it more entertaining.

Thanks to bodhisamaya (story very much appreciated : ) ), otherwise blameless Kanji 緒 now clearly depicts an old man in the sunshine wearing nothing but a thong.

I *think*, Maths not being my strong point, I need to do 53(.5) a day to be finished on the twelfth (will probably not get many done Mondays).

Will also report back on Wednesday, good luck both of you!

What ファブリス said. Why are you studying Japanese? Ask yourself that.

But also, I think you're confused about what "the method" here is. You should only be spending like 10% of your time in an SRS after you finish RTK. 90% of your time should be doing fun stuff in Japanese, with just 10% of boring review to make sure you don't forget what you already learned. It's easy to lose sight of that though when you're in the RTK stage because you're spending all your time in the SRS.

Tip: Start having fun. Add kanji out of order--just the ones that look interesting or are easy to remember. You can fill in the rest later. Take a break and start on kana or Tae Kim. Or whatever, as long as its in or about Japanese.

mafried Wrote:You should only be spending like 10% of your time in an SRS after you finish RTK. 90% of your time should be doing fun stuff in Japanese, with just 10% of boring review to make sure you don't forget what you already learned.

That would be nice but that's not going to happen. Even if you spent only an hour a day on the SRS which means not going very fast. You'd have to spend 9 hours "having fun in Japanese" to maintain that ratio.

50%/50% is the best I can hope for.

Codexus Wrote:

mafried Wrote:You should only be spending like 10% of your time in an SRS after you finish RTK. 90% of your time should be doing fun stuff in Japanese, with just 10% of boring review to make sure you don't forget what you already learned.

That would be nice but that's not going to happen. Even if you spent only an hour a day on the SRS which means not going very fast. You'd have to spend 9 hours "having fun in Japanese" to maintain that ratio.

50%/50% is the best I can hope for.

I'd say it depends on how you use your SRS. People who do dictation and other kinds of production will undoubtedly find themselves spending a LOT of time infront of the SRS. Personally, since I only do recognition, I can usually spend no more than around 20 minutes a day in front of the SRS, giving me a pretty good ratio of SRS to Japanese time. Of course, this depends on how much I want to add to my SRS for a given day.

10%/90% does sound a bit idealistic though... I would definitely consider the SRS a lot more useful than that. 35/65% or something like that maybe.

Today I finished lesson 40 (frame 1586). That means four blue lines in the progress chart of RevTK. Looks good. 456 kanji left. I'll be so glad when I hit the sign of the snake.

I also thought about your replies. I'm uncertain how to follow up after the book. Of course, I'll continue reviewing. The respective threads are informative. Then again you are confronted with quite a variety you can choose of.

Next report: Sunday

I'm having trouble with SRS stuff, too, but not exactly the same kind of trouble, and I'd like to ask if you have a few words of advice. Please allow me to jump into this thread with my first post, right quick:

> Lately, I moved up to adding 40 new cards per day, and of course I started to spend lots more time reviewing. But something happened: Remembering the stories became much, much more difficult than I remember. After taking up the intensity, I found myself failing many cards seven or eight times, and sometimes more. I hadn't changed my way of learning the stories. Each new kanji got at least a few minutes of time for remembering; no new techniques crept into my learning style, AFAIK. But suddenly, for some reason, remembering just got difficult. Do you folks know a limit for the number of cards you're able to pick up at a time? Do you think I just tried to do too much? Have you had a similar experience, and how did you overcome it if so?

> I'm living in Japan, now, so it's a bummer to sit inside my apartment learning all these kanji when I could be devoting much more time to functional aspects of the language (e.g. conversation and *actual* reading of basic kanji). It doesn't feel like a waste of time, but it feels like I'm doing things in a screwed up order. I've learned the kana quite well and I'm near the end of the second Pimsleur series – these are helpful. But it's becoming exasperating to go forward with obscure kanji that not even my japanese friends know. What's the point of knowing the kanji that Heisig labels "remorse", when I can't even ask someone to pass the salt?

One more thing, right quick: Do you usually fail a card after your first review (since you didn't know it in the first place), or do you click "hard" (in Anki)?

There are two possibilities. Yes, one is that you are going too fast - everyone has a different pace that's appropriate for their memory and their time constraints. The other, however, is that you're not creating vivid enough stories to begin with, and thus are relying too much on brute force memorization.

An SRS is designed to help you remember things, not to learn them initially, and this is a pretty important distinction. If you're failing a card 7-8 times at first, then there's something incomplete about how you're learning the cards to begin with. I also had trouble with adding lots of cards at once at first, but once I started putting extra effort into making my stories/images personalized, vivid, and memorable, I found that the number of cards I could add each day (while maintaining a high retention rate) was limited only by how fast I could come up with good stories.

A few minutes isn't always enough time to come up with something that sticks in your memory - don't be afraid to invest extra time in developing your stories, because it will save you time in the long run.

vrtgo, you should learn it *before* you add it to Anki. Or if you're using a premade deck, study the card before you unsuspend it. Even "new" cards should be things you already know.

vrtgo Wrote:But suddenly, for some reason, remembering just got difficult.

I have discovered (rather belatedly) that running a couple of weeks ahead with story creation (versus flash card addition) seems to help. Right now, I'm only at 1550 cards, but I have stories through 1733, and I add 11 cards a day. I used to keep the story creation just barely above flash card addition, and I was running 80 to 90 percent retention pretty much across the board. Since I've gone much farther ahead with the stories, retention seems to have jumped above 90 percent. I suppose I'm absorbing something from the story creation over time that makes the difference. But who knows?

Time applied seems to be the key variable. Some people stuff the machine full of cards as fast as they can. They pay with review time. If you make stories at the drop of a hat, you're going to pay with extra time reviewing -- unless you are just so great that you make highly memorable stories at almost the drop of a hat.

My bottom line advice? Slow down a bit. Forty a day? Sure, I suppose it can be done. There is NO DOUBT that that many stories can be added each day to a deck, and more. But assimilating those stories is another thing. At just 40 per day, it's rather like attempting to learn the English alphabet times more than 1.5, every day, but with drastically more complex characters.

This forum tends to encourage people to go faster than what might be optimal in many cases, I suspect.

How do you know if you are getting the job done? Check your mature card count *every* day. Mine is currently at 1152. It has *never* regressed. Sometimes it doesn't go up but 3 or 4 cards a day. Sometimes it jumps nearly 20 cards. But the number doesn't get smaller. So however much trouble I have with a few cards, I'm sure I'll eventually nail them down, and the number of mature cards doesn't lie. The job is getting accomplished.

Wally Wrote:This forum tends to 励ncourage 民eople to 碁o faster than 何hat might be optimal 中n 多any cases, 吾 suspect.

Quoted for truth. Sincere thanks to shaydwyrm, mafried and wally for your sagacity. I'd like to leave a little comment here for tenricefieldsglue:

I think it is always a (tiresome) chore to endure the earliest stages of learning a foreign language. Having a class with people who are the same level and come from the same background as you takes the edge off of it, as can living with a host family if you are lucky enough to do so. But if you go it alone then you will probably feel very alone indeed. Things you've known how to say and write in your own language since you were a tiny child take a great deal of time and concentration in the new one, and the adult mind reels in the effort. We're not even learning how to write sentences – it's all just tiny combinations of brush strokes that aren't even words, exactly. Small wonder, then, that it's such a drag.

Then, later, God willing, we'll find ourselves able to communicate with people in a way that's completely new to us. Having studied the system of writing, we'll be literate in something previously unreadable to us. And for now we can remain assured these things will be immensely rewarding.

I'm in roughly the same stages as you are, and I think most people here are, or were at the same point recently. I think it's going to take a great deal of forbearance on our parts, approaching Japanese this way.

If you really do tire of the repetitions, it would probably be better to focus on conversational aspects of the language for now. You're pretty far along with the RtK studying, though. I don't know if I'd give up on SRS altogether, and so soon.

Well then, best of luck to you! (and forgive me if i've merely restated the obvious)

('ー')/

Thanks, vrtgo. Actually I'm very curious how the method will turn out for me beyond Heisig.

Hey, good going. Keep at it, should be done before we know it.
On frame 1525 here. The book now refuses to stay open. Methinks I need a paperweight.

The advice is also appreciated here, thanks guys. ^_^

Up to 1586 now. Today is my last workday, and after that it's just vacation. More sleep and less stress should mean better performance. I will do one lesson each day, which will be a somewhat slower pace, so hopefully the number of reviews will start to go down. It will also mean that I will be able to reach my target of being finished by the 19th.

I finished RTK in 22 days... haha, 40 a day is no sweat. FOCUS!,
I actually am at around 2400 kanji now and also I have learned over 1100 hanzi(not including repeats)* like 3000 characters total not including repeats* in 40 days I think. (I got the smart.fm hanzi list from that "mastering the Chinese characters" or whatever it is called. making my own meanings to fit, and simply dubbing things "Chinese" if I couldn't get around using the same keyword, example Chinese Silver instead of Silver haha.)

For me anyways it seemed to become incredibly more easy to learn more hanzi/ as i went on.
I currently am running at 20 Chinese sentences a day, 40-80(varies) Japanese Sentences per day, and adding 80 Hanzi per day.
On the contrary, I USE ANKI TO LEARN THINGS TO BEGIN WITH, so my failure rate tends to look bad, for new things at first haha.

But hey we say the beauty of an SRS is repition! Don't force yourself to remember things right away! Just keep them in your SRS and if repeat, if you get tired of a sentence or kanji, just click the "hard" button and let it wait 9 hours, It tends to become magically so much clearer 9 hour later(usually 24 because I review my decks only once daily, in a specified order at that).

My advice is use the SRS to learn, play around with when old cards show and new cards come up, mix that routine up a little, and just repeat. You'll get there eventually, I mean if you see a sentence 5 times the first day and it blows your mind, no sweat, the 2nd day you have to see it 5 times again, and its still too hard, Repeat! that 3rd of maybe 4th day with it tend to start the love affair sometimes, the point is I don't focus on mastering my things right away so much, Just keep them in the SRS and when they upset you, bump them for 9 hours, you'll get it eventually, your brain will scream at you THIS BASTARD KANJI/SENTENCE! I REMEMBER YOU! and that day you can click good and 4 days later you can see your then new best friend again with a smile on your face.
Hope it helps! Failure is my learning method, and repetition is my friend.

EDIT
OH yeah and I'm moving to Shanghai on Aug 20th with my Japanese Lover, chinese language courses haha, what a joke they will be at this point. I plan to purposely fail into the lowest grade and then take 1 years worth of low level chinese, and during that time do self study and get the best of the Chinese environment that Shanghai has to offer, then I will take and rape the HSK. My goal is to enter Fudan Univ. finish up my Bachelors, and then for my graduate school...oh yes oh yes 東大！皆ちゃん！東京大学に行く事は本当に出来る！勉強しれねぇぇ！

Yonosa Wrote:I currently am running at 20 Chinese sentences a day, 40-80(varies) Japanese Sentences per day, and adding 80 Hanzi per day.

Very impressive. My issue with finishing Heisig seems rather minor compared to your workload. I guess you have a very good time management and willpower.
I for one have a problem to get in this state when my mind is sharp and I can stay focused till a lesson or reviewing is over. I waste much time around this good phases. I dislike procrastination but I do it over and over. Since I set a fixed date when I want to be finished (July 12) I'm encouraged to study more and procrastinate less.

Yonosa Wrote:OH yeah and I'm moving to Shanghai on Aug 20th with my Japanese Lover, chinese language courses haha, what a joke they will be at this point. I plan to purposely fail into the lowest grade and then take 1 years worth of low level chinese, and during that time do self study and get the best of the Chinese environment that Shanghai has to offer, then I will take and rape the HSK. My goal is to enter Fudan Univ. finish up my Bachelors, and then for my graduate school...oh yes oh yes 東大！皆ちゃん！東京大学に行く事は本当に出来る！勉強しれねぇぇ！

上海woohoo! Nice~! It'll be still scorching hot though in august. Fudan and Tongji are good, Sisu is more relaxed though haha. Why would you purposely fail into the lowest grade btw?
这样做有什么好处呢？除非你想装傻瓜？
lol, 『rape the HSK』it ain't a walk in the park y'know (ofcourse depending which level you're aiming at)

Dude... allow time for procrastination, just procrastinate in Japanese if you can, or at the least have some audio on. Like seriouslly right now I am supposed to be reviewing! haha But I am procrastinating, but even now as I type it is sing along time! 折れた　は　翼～君　は　少し～　青すぎる　空　に　疲れた　だけ　さ～～！♪ｗｗｗ　Have fun though, although I will admit my primary time is spent in the SRS, especially the way I do my Chinese sentences, I try to have 3 new readings per sentence I do, that way each day I am learning at least 60 new readings. But hey check this crazy song out, if you don't have fun with this then IDK WTF I can do to inspire you!

, make sure you change the settings at the top to 日本語 ね・・！　
But let's get real as far as the fun thing that Khatz keeps wanting to talk about, yeah it can be fun at times, but the AJATT lifestyle can be hellishly stressful when the growing pains are setting in, I relish in that though. It hurts that I don't know what the hell is going on in my own life anymore, That I only understand 20 to 30% of what is going on in my life... Unacceptable, don't you think? I do, Back to Mining from 人生の目的！

Musashi Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:OH yeah and I'm moving to Shanghai on Aug 20th with my Japanese Lover, chinese language courses haha, what a joke they will be at this point. I plan to purposely fail into the lowest grade and then take 1 years worth of low level chinese, and during that time do self study and get the best of the Chinese environment that Shanghai has to offer, then I will take and rape the HSK. My goal is to enter Fudan Univ. finish up my Bachelors, and then for my graduate school...oh yes oh yes 東大！皆ちゃん！東京大学に行く事は本当に出来る！勉強しれねぇぇ！

上海woohoo! Nice~! It'll be still scorching hot though in august. Fudan and Tongji are good, Sisu is more relaxed though haha. Why would you purposely fail into the lowest grade btw?
这样做有什么好处呢？除非你想装傻瓜？
lol, 『rape the HSK』it ain't a walk in the park y'know (ofcourse depending which level you're aiming at)

Well, my thinking is, help me contemplate the best decision as well though, I don't want to much pressure from school, I am better at putting the heat on myself is all. But no I am not an idiot, I just want acceptable Univ. entrance level, so that would be 6. I'm pretty confident about it though. I mean at the pace I'm going at with 3 new readings per sentence on average that is 20*3*50(days remaining) so that means I will know 3000 readings by the time I get there ? wow haha, but probably closer to 2000 as stuff will overlap a lot towards the intermediate level stuff.Also,I am not worried for Todai's Japanese section, I will be living with my Japanese speaking woman, and I'm the type of bastard who is as conceded as to ignore any word she will attempt to utter in English, haha. Plus that will be 3 years down the line so things are looking good as far as Todai is concerned as well. I hear foreigners can sometimes get in more easily especially with prior international experience, and I figure with having been to China which is a country of issue and controversy within Japan that I should hopefully be of the favored applicant's list.

267 left. One week left. Definitely doable. Next report: 0 kanji left.

Wow, good going! I should think that is doable, well done. ^_^ I reckon you'll be done before Sunday, at that rate.
On 2600 here, little behind thanks to a migrane + my final Japanese class. Certainly still doable, though.

Apparently it's tanabata (or possibly slightly late, but nevermind), so I amused myself by hanging up my own paper strip, reading 日本語が話せるよういなりますように (I wish to be able to speak Japanese. At least, I think that's what it is, since I had to Google it >_<). I'm not sure whether the phrasing is right for the situation, and I'm not sure the stars can read my handwriting, but, hey, it's somehow encouraging.

-No report-

Ampharos64 and Drabant: By now it's most important that we don't stop. Then the remaining kanji shouldn't be a problem. Though I have to admit on Monday I was in a lazy state of mind and added no cards. The past evening/night I tried to make up for my laziness and added 104 kanji. I'm afraid that's isn't beneficial for my retention rates.

tenricefieldsglue Wrote:-No report-

Ampharos64 and Drabant: By now it's most important that we don't stop. Then the remaining kanji shouldn't be a problem. Though I have to admit on Monday I was in a lazy state of mind and added no cards. The past evening/night I tried to make up for my laziness and added 104 kanji. I'm afraid that's isn't beneficial for my retention rates.

We should all quit spending so much time in these forums if we aren't meeting our goals I think. Our goals should come first, no?