Dear forum,

as for today, I decided to quit learning Japanese and investing more time in order to reach fluency and proficiency as I always dreamt of. After a severe discussion with three of my friends that were greatly offended by my choice of words that were rated as insulsts in Japanese by them, I feel like Japanese demands my personality to change at this very point to become fluent in terms of what Japanese regards as "good and fluent Japanese". I don't want to assimilate in the Japanese 建前 culture, that's all. Learning Japanese has lost sense to me and after the discussion I feel like I can never be welcomed in this country and by most of the people I could meet there for the way I am, morally, personally.

I would like to thank all of you here!!! You had been such a great support to me and I hope you won't forget me. Perhaps we can see us one day somewhere in the real world. I will miss you very much, but this decision seems to be senseful right now.

Peace, Tori

drunk post? >_>

nothing wrong with taking a break I guess...

Seriously? That sucks dude
We all make mistakes, we all hurt people without wanting to do so. It's a part of life.
It's even easier to make these mistakes when you don't master the culture / language, but I don't think it's something that can't be overcome.
Hey, I've led a Japanese girl on without knowing, resulting in breaking her heart. I've insulted my tea ceremony teacher (without knowing) so much that my friend begged me to apologize to her. And I've got a BUNCH of other mistakes I've made!

However, if quitting / taking a break is something that feels right to you, then who am I to say it's wrong. Good luck with everything!

Bye.

personally I think that you were dealing with some fairly stuck-up people if they are going to take such offense.

taking offense where it wasn't intended is in general a pretty lame thing to do... but especially when someone is trying very hard to learn your culture/language and making mistakes. there are plenty of japanese people who would be much cooler in that situation and I would encourage you to make friends with them.

moreover, quitting this late in the game is like giving up on a career and going back for a new bachelor's degree at 40... somehow I don't think your situation is that bad. you lost a battle, but not the war. strap on a pair and move forward.

Very sorry to hear you had a bad experience. I remembering being severely scolded by one of my teachers once for taking an inappropriate attitude towards her. What I thought was an intelligent discussion in the spirit of academia turned out to be a faux pas from a Japanese perspective as I acted outside of the typical Japanese student-teacher hierarchy roles.

At first, it felt unfair to me that I was expected to observe strict rules from an, at the time, unfamiliar culture. Then, after a while, I started blaming myself instead for not knowing how I was supposed to act. Finally, I realized that it was pointless to spend time thinking about whether my actions were irresponsible or if the expections on me were too high and that it was better to just learn as much as I could from the experience.

Now, a long time after the incident, I'm on great terms with my former teacher and we regularly write mails to each other as friends.

I learned that as one's level of Japanese rises, so do the expectations on one's conduct. When people perceive your ability as high, they are probably far less likely to write off something they perceive as an insult as an honest mistake even though we all make honest mistakes all the time. It really hurts to have bad experiences like these despite your intentions being good and I can truly relate to your feelings of wanting to quit learning Japanese but give yourself some time to cool down before you decide whether you're giving up on Japanese or not. Perhaps you'll find in a few days that you remember the sensation you felt when you made your first steps of progress on your language-learning journey a long time ago. I totally understand if it feels like this experience has polluted all the fun in learning Japanese at the moment but it does not have to feel like that later on. People have bad experiences in lots of different fields and there are times when what you're doing doesn't feel fun anymore but don't let those experiences set the tone for what you're doing!

I've had a terrible/loving (depends on what I focus) experience in the past with a japanese person. thanks to that I learned quite a lot about their culture and above all, got even more interested in it. My brain was empty before, now it's not. I'm assimilating their culture because I dealt with them everyday and study japanese language and culture every day.

But sure, I lost motivation gazillions of times.

I don't know about problems caused by cultural differences but not living in Japan and having daily practice I have certainly found that the more Japanese I learn and the longer I have been studying for, the more I forget the basic politeness rules I learned from textbooks years ago. For anyone else who thinks they are having problems inadvertently insulting people the 新日本語で暮らそう series is an excellent review.

http://www.dailymotion.com/playlist/x1xp...deo=xm5ouk

the education system, birth defects, the comparative poverty I was brought up in and the fact that people I was studying with had spent years in Japan when I had never been caused me to seriously consider quitting university.

I forced myself though uni through my mum and got exceptional marks for her.

Doing all of this just made me depressed, ill and bitter and my advice to you would be if you do want to quit then do so. I wasted three years of my life for an "excellent" degree which meant nothing to me and breaking down in tears.

That said my work with Japanese has broadened my experiences but studying Japanese didn't get me there.

That's too bad Tori. I remembered when you said you hit 10k some time ago, and I thought "good for him, he's going places". I've always regarded you as an okay joe, so I don't think it's your personality that needs to change, but the way you express it. If you use the rude codes, then prepare to be treated accordingly. The emotional bounds you share with some Japanese structures can't be that deep that any shift is impossible. Or maybe you can specialize yourself in Kansaiben, I don't know. Anyway, good luck for whatever is next, but don't let bad experiences ruin your hard work.

Its pretty ridiculous to quit learning a language; especially if you enjoyed it, on the account of other people.

Find better friends. Those people you knew seem to be pretty crap.

Tori-kun Wrote:I don't want to assimilate in the Japanese 建前 culture, that's all. Learning Japanese has lost sense to me and after the discussion I feel like I can never be welcomed in this country and by most of the people I could meet there for the way I am, morally, personally.

I already wrote something, but this also happened to me. Precisely. I said something to someone I shouldn't. I made the person lose face when I should have kept in silence. you don't need to change your personality, you just need to adapt it. All japanese are like that, it's who they are and they are proud of it. You need to respect that. Learn how to "suggest" things, in a proper way of course.

The point is simply, that I don't want to follow any "inborn Japanese rules", they expect me to follow. I'm a foreigner, not a Japanese. I just can talk and understand Japanese, but I don't want to be assimilated in their culture. That does not mean I don't want to learn anything about the culture nor that I'm not interested in it (I love Japanese cuisine, some music and moreover Japanese literature, esp. from Murakami -- which is said to be hated by quite a lot of Japanese for it's frank and open tone it's sometimes written in, btw). I just feel like being also tatemae and obeying those hiearchical rules that lead to a "nice" or harmonous atmosphere demand me to change the way I think.

Basically, the whole discussion escalated like this. I wrote an entry on Lang8 and got a correction from a friend that only understands Japanese (I had posted English as a reference to my Japanese text, too, for other correctors).
In a comment I wrote 「英語できないXちゃんという本当のネイティブからの添削をもらったのを嬉しく思うよ～」 and we know each other already for a long time, on top, she wrote in her own 自己紹介 she is only able to handle Japanese （日本語しか操れない）, so I thought thanking for her disability in English and the superb correction I got therefore, is not wrong nor insulting in the slightest.. However, another friend cut in and scolded me off pretty badly also in front of my other friends who are comparably younger and tried to defend me (which was really awkward. I felt like a baby who needed to be protected and I could not express myself as I wanted to in Japanese to bring my point across). I even excused. I wrote, it was not my intention to insult someone and I was asking for 他の言い方 in order to learn from my mistake...

In previous discussions I also criticised a few of my friends concerning their
a) agreement on 死刑制度 being necessary and good
b) "being proud of being Japanese" statements being patriotistic
c) Japanese being dumbheaded in terms of obeying social strict hiearchical systems and stagnated value system

Long story short, ultimately a)-c) and the recent discussion lead towards one of my best friends so far telling me I was mentally disordered （精神は病む　とか　健康な状態じゃない）.

I'm pretty confused

I can relate.

I'm still confused with what happened to me too. but I'm my case it was with one of the persons I respect the most which happens to be way, way superior to me in the hierarchical scale. Still struggling a lot.

You made that girl lose face in public. And then you irritated you friends by being pushy on those subjects. You are living that online I suppose. I lived it in person, and it was/is considerably brain wrecking. Still confused and studying japanese culture to see if I can get to the bottom of this.

I don't know man... I sure wouldn't give up studying Japanese if you have invested this much into it so far. Especially, if it's just because you aren't getting along with certain people. I've been through this crap before with my Japanese teachers etc. I just endured it, got sick of the language for a little while, then came back by doing something that I originally wanted to do with the language: playing video-games in Japanese. By playing games online, I've been introduced to the gamer culture in Japan, and I'm having the best time I've ever had. Nobody in my guild cares about formalities etc. at all. You are probably just friends with a set of Japanese people that don't match you, that's all.

I don't think the Japanese hierarchy is necessarily a bad thing, nor the formalities in the culture. It's just that foreigners need time to adjust to it, but we can learn to behave properly with given time I'm sure. If you don't like it then that's fine too though, the language is still usable for native media and literature.

I completely agree with Necro. Plus, I think Japanese who learn to speak English encounter this cultural difference a lot too. They either get offended every day for people being too forward and pushy, or they go with the flow by just realizing that English speakers have an entire different culture of their own. My wife's parents realize I'm from another country/culture and they are never offended by anything I say. Even when I'm sick, they take me to McDonald's so I can eat cheeseburgers in order to get better

i can relate too. i guess this kind of cultural ravine is the sort of thing that everyone is likely to come across at some point in their studies. It's psychologically difficult, but the more you learn about Japanese culture, the easier it'll get hopefully.

Tori... 1stly... quit hanging around with patriotic right wingers who are into the death penalty lol get better friends!!!

However! If you're bringing that kind of stuff up in Lang-8 diary entries, you might want to stop. Even someone who doesn't support those things might find it insulting if you often talk about things you dislike about Japan.
As for c.) well, that is a pretty rude statement in general, i hope you didn't phrase it like that. It is insulting to Japanese people in general.

Try thinking about how you would feel about someone else writing about Germany and German culture like that. There's a ton of things that i could criticise about British culture, but i wouldn't necessarily want to see a foreigner criticising them often unless they had a deep knowledge on the subject, because it so easily comes across as simply stereotyping or racism.

Anyway, in short, it might be better to stick to topics that you feel positive about on Lang-8, and with anyone you don't really know well.

Related:

hehe

That's how foreign cultures are to the newcomers.

I was in London on a school trip last year, and felt intimidated and slightly insulted when the lady serving drinks at a pub said things like "thank you darling" and "when are you going back to your own country?". I mean, a Norwegian bartender would never have said anything similar. I also had a lengthy conversation with a random stranger outside that pub one evening.

I don't know if she was generally condescending towards me, or that Brits/Londoners act that way. In Norway, personal space is sacred and any stranger who starts a conversation with you is insane, drunk or American -- or a combination of all three.

I assume the difference between Japanese culture and any other culture is much bigger though, but you should learn by mistakes instead of becoming depressed by it. Different cultures requires different behaviour -- there's no way around that.

Tori-kun Wrote:However, another friend cut in and scolded me off pretty badly also in front of my other friends who are comparably younger and tried to defend me (which was really awkward. I felt like a baby who needed to be protected and I could not express myself as I wanted to in Japanese to bring my point across).

Well, if the person who was supposedly insulted didn't reply that they were hurt or bothered by the comment, then exactly what right does this friend who scolded you have to just go off at you? Especially if others were actually defending you instead of agreeing with that person's comments!

A better way of going about it would have been to say something along the lines of "Thank you for replying. I really appreciate a native speaker's perspective on this, as I'm still learning." Diplomacy should be all that's being asked for.

Tori-kun Wrote:In previous discussions I also criticised a few of my friends concerning their
a) agreement on 死刑制度 being necessary and good
b) "being proud of being Japanese" statements being patriotistic
c) Japanese being dumbheaded in terms of obeying social strict hiearchical systems and stagnated value system

I believe this probably falls under the category of "don't talk about politics with someone you don't know, and not in casual conversation." Essentially, if you don't have some basic idea of the person's preferences anyway, they'll feel like they're being attacked by you, and then subsequently go on the defensive. If they don't get obviously defensive and just chew you out for saying such things, maybe they're trying to get you to be less direct. Again, diplomacy; feel out the person, then tentatively introduce the topic if you don't think it'll ignite a firestorm you never intended. It's not an offense limited to Japanese; it's basic communication.

Dude... who the hell cares if someone gets mad at you? Were you planning on going through life without ever pissing anybody off? C'mon.

Tori-kun Wrote:a) agreement on 死刑制度 being necessary and good

It's a Japanese way of going about things and you are just an online, anonymous identity – no wonder they defend their way when some foreigner dares to criticise it (and you will never know what they truly think on this issue). You are an outsider and as such have no right to tell them what they should or should not do.

Tori-kun Wrote:b) "being proud of being Japanese" statements being patriotistic

I fail to see what's wrong with saying that you feel proud of being who you are. The only thing that you do by putting statements like that is to offend people – especially those who genuinely feel patriotic.

Tori-kun Wrote:c) Japanese being dumbheaded in terms of obeying social strict hiearchical systems and stagnated value system

That's plain offending – there is no way a normal person would not feel offended if they are called dumbheaded.


Quitting learning Japanese after being justly scolded is silly... How old are you if I may ask?

Onara Wrote:Dude... who the hell cares if someone gets mad at you? Were you planning on going through life without ever pissing anybody off? C'mon.

I like you.

Regardless of cultural gap, it's a case of not knowing how to deal with people. Whether they're Japanese or not the statements are likely to offend. I think though, that the foreigner has to step back and roll with the punches often, you can't expect natives not to get defensive about those opinions.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do - right?

@IceCream: LOL Another friend of mine read his comments and wrote me an email saying exactly the same thing （彼ってさ２ちゃんねるの右翼に付属してるかも）

@raeesmerelda: When it comes to talking to people on the internet I guess I make use of my anonymity and I am more of an extrovert than in real life. I don't give a shit about communication rules, either. I just say what I think and if someone has a problem with it, he can say it like I do, but not insult for what I am.

@Onara: Thanks.. kind of thinking the same way. Though, I got offended by personal insulsts like "you are a mental retard for the way you think"...

@Inny Jan: I'm 19.

a) I don't perceive myself as an outside nor do I perceive foreigners, i.e. Japanese, living in Germany as outsiders. Same with foreigners in Japan. A discussion about death penalty is -- in my eyes - absolutely unrelated to culture of a country as it's always about killing a criminal.

b) Being proud about what you are is a statement about your own personality including your abilities, disabilities and your achievements. "Nationality" is a conincidence and is unrelated to your effords and achievements. Being proud of it makes, first, linguistically no sense to me (in Russian/German/English), hence it's, secondly, illogical.

c) If they take it as an offense, it's their problem not mine. People coming from abroad are also making provocative comments about Nazis when they talk to me and I show them the way to go/I explain frankly without being sullen or anything childish like that. Being easily offended by foreigners who are not familiar with culture, or, who don't want to be familiar with culture because they have their own one, is childish in my eyes.

My moral codices allow me to call people dumbheaded who don't disagree with facts elder people for example mention just for the damn sake that they are elder and therefore "worth looking up to". They are just elder, just humans like I am, too.

[Edit]

When in Rome, do as the Romans do - right?
No, why should I!? Changing what I am just for the sake of other's way of thinking, culture, background and language? I know 4 languages and I changed the way of speaking, behaving and thinking in each language differently, I would feel schizophrenic. (no harm intended)