No why should I? You've spent all this time learning languages and when you utilise this skill by talking to natives you expect them to act in a way that pleases you? If you say you don't like how they act in a certain way that means you want them to act how you think they should, why should they? You're coming into their culture so abide by their social rules.

When you learn a language you learn numerous grammar rules, it's like saying 'I don't want to speak according to the rules in language X and why should I?'.

EDIT: Also to add, acting in accordance to Japanese cultural norms is not the same as changing who you are, it just means you have to be tact on how to present yourself. And from what I see you don't take this precaution in English either and that's fine... you may want to act how you see fit but don't get hurt when people find offense in it.

I didn't say I'm hurt by his response. What hurts is his assault at my values, that's all. His insult was unrelated and taken out of the blue sky. I was rather pissed than hurt..

I use language as a tool to communicate. That's why I follow grammatical rules, otherwise illogical bogus would leave my mouth and people would really have troubles understanding what I want to express. You cannot compare this to culture, I think.

My aim in learning Japanese is showing that Japanese is learnable. That it is not the most difficult language on the world and actually, that there is no difficult language. I want to read Japanese books for the sake of their stories. I want to read books from authors that are not especially "warmly welcomed" by Japanese society for writing what they don't like about society, politics, ethics of Japanese and so on. If I'm not mistaken Murakami counts to those personalities...

I think having an interest in controversial texts is good, naturally you want to read books that reject certain ideas in every language. Bringing those ideas into conversation though is best never done, unless it's a very close friend. I also think what's very important is, if you reject certain things it's better to fully understand and partake in it first. I can see why people would dislike Japanese hierarchy and so on but it's only right to follow the rules and do as your told and not actively refuse to take part. At that point it's just being difficult and stubborn.

Tori-kun Wrote:I want to read Japanese books for the sake of their stories. I want to read books from authors that are not especially "warmly welcomed" by Japanese society for writing what they don't like about society, politics, ethics of Japanese and so on. If I'm not mistaken Murakami counts to those personalities...

Which Murakami are you talking about, Haruki or Ryu?

I don't know that much about either's critical reception in Japan, but it seems to me that once you have people lining up at midnight for your next book, you're being pretty warmly welcomed, whatever the critics may say.

Wait.

Tori, you critique people's held beliefs/culture/society and then are shocked when they get defensive and snap back? If I have failed to follow this correctly, then forgive/correct me, but that's what the gist of this sounds like to me. You take it amiss then when someone tells you must be sick in the head.

I don't know where you live Tori, but if you were, for instance, to go into the deep south of the US and go up to most people and talk about the rightness of abortion, evolution, and the nonexistness of god. Most people would yell at you and call you all sorts of things; one of which might be "stupid/retarded" but likely even more horrible things. You can get similar reactions in other countries around the world too, you just need to find those ideas that the minority of the society hold and feel strong about. In the EU I think you could get a similar reaction if you talk about Turks and immigration; I understand that's a touchy topic with many.

a) There's a reason I don't talk about religion, abortion, mentally disabled etc. with people I know. These are all hot button topics that can easily drive people apart. Maybe you enjoy a healthy debate, but other people can be very defensive about these topics. If you want to debate these topics, be prepared for the social consequences.

b/c) Be careful about giving people unsolicited advice, especially about their opinions and beliefs.

If you want to say things without giving a *****, you better be able to hear things without giving a *****. You tried to change their political views, and instead they convinced you to ***** off. No need to let this get to you so much, just let people sort out their own beliefs.

Hey forum,
So today I went to a friends house. As I entered he asked me to remove my shoes. I said no, of course. Why should I? I always keep my shoes on in the house and they were clean anyway so I refused and told them it was stupid to remove shoes and expect me to abide by it. They suddenly got mad and yelled at me in front of their family which was quite embarrassing and made me quite mad so I'm never going to speak to that family ever again.

Basically the same situation reworded to show the triviality of your problem. Sorry if I am being rude, I'm just being blunt about what I think.

So what the hell, Necro? You're comparing taking your shoes off to this problem, how stupid. To the people in that house your shoes may have been clean, but it's respectful when entering someone's territory to do as they say and take your shoes off or whatever. To you it was a simple refusal because you don't follow that rule but to the person it's a big form of disrespect. That person is going to be a bit offended by this and probably less willing to invite you round his house if you don't follow his rules.

If a person scolded you in an unreasonable way, then they are awful, they could at least be constructive about the fact that you are still learning the culture and how to behave and not be rude. But equally the solution to that is not to be rude and denounce their standards and beliefs and talking badly about them, it's to be the mature person and deal with it like a grown-up.

You sound way too hung up on this idea that Japanese formality is evil and should be stopped. Why not accept it for what it is, no different from any cultures norms except they are more structured and used more often. As with anything there are pros and cons with this but focusing only on the cons will get you no where and also cause offense to people around you.

Onara Wrote:Dude... who the hell cares if someone gets mad at you? Were you planning on going through life without ever pissing anybody off? C'mon.

This.

Quitting just because you have issues with how your friends think is actually more ridiculous than this whole situation. People are entitled to opinions and internet tends to bring out the worst in them. Shrug it off and move on, you'll get plenty of such crap through your whole life no matter what path you choose so you better get used to it.

Actually you should be thankful because now you know who are your true friends.

So you found out that your choice of language was abrasive and the people you talk(ed) to are easily offended, now you know to be more careful and maybe find easier going friends.

Tori-kun Wrote:In previous discussions I also criticised a few of my friends concerning their
a) agreement on 死刑制度 being necessary and good
b) "being proud of being Japanese" statements being patriotistic
c) Japanese being dumbheaded in terms of obeying social strict hiearchical systems and stagnated value system

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with people's opinions as long as you're tactful about it, but criticising them personally for their opinions seems obnoxious in any language... when you're fluent enough to appreciate the nuances in your language and have a first hand understanding of the culture as an insider, feel free to talk about these topics. I don't know why foreigners who haven't even mastered the language and admittedly are outsiders with respect to the culture feel so ready to philosophise and criticise it, it's like their opinions are just assimilated from western textbooks and the internet.

Anyway, the normal thing to do here is to lose the pride, apologise for any offence caused and move on. If you don't want to "act Japanese" then you must resign yourself to being a relative outsider, just as in any other country. I would know, I've never assimilated into British culture and justly suffer/enjoy the consequences.

Stian Wrote:In Norway, personal space is sacred and any stranger who starts a conversation with you is insane, drunk or American -- or a combination of all three.

And to think Londoners are renowned for being unfriendly....

You just need to speak to some less conservative/lame Japanese people, although there is such a thing as tact. Some of my friends wouldn't have disagreed on those particular points, but some may have. Maybe I would have. Different people have different values and opinions regardless of nationality. They may share a common culture, but it doesn't mean they appreciate every aspect of it, and I don't think you can write off an entire nation based on a few bad experiences.

The childless, stay-at-home おばさん in failing marriages with an inflated sense of self-worth who I've spoken to on Shared Talk made me feel maybe something was amiss with Japanese culture. So did the neurotic, world-hating, jobless bi-polar twenty-somethings on @Skype. The countless in-betweeners who had no remarkable personality traits did little to encourage me either. None of this takes away from the fact that my friends are interesting people who I get along well with, and I feel lucky to have had the opportunity to meet such people. You just need to find some more opportunities. Maybe take a break first or rewatch a favourite drama/anime to remind yourself of what you like about Japan. No point looking at things in black and white.

Tori-kun Wrote:Long story short, ultimately a)-c) and the recent discussion lead towards one of my best friends so far telling me I was mentally disordered （精神は病む　とか　健康な状態じゃない）.

oh man, that is rich, I was told off like that too from my girlfriend before. I told her that if we had kids we would not have a TV and not let them watch even a second of it, and that I also wanted them to be homeschooled and she thought I ought to be thrown in the mental ward, she told her parents too, and they too thought I was crazy and were worried about if we got married.

However, I did not get too ofended, I said something that is an unpopular opinion, if you have unpopular opinions, do not expect people to react nicely to that. You said you were only 19, you have a lot of growing up to do, this is just one of those experiences that will help you.

Tori-kun Wrote:When in Rome, do as the Romans do - right?
No, why should I!?

why?
because all the romans will kick your ass if you don't conform. and you're in their house.

on a side note, i argued with a lot of japanese people because i was pro-nuclear, but i did it tactfully and people respected my opinions even if they disagreed with them. arguing in japanese is different than arguing in english. i am much more direct in english, though i still have the same levels of respect when i argue.

there's also the fact that people are different. just because someone is japanese doesn't mean they're part of a japanese collective thought process.

reminds me of when you meet people because you have the same hobby and you're like "well, we have the same hobby! we can't possibly not be friends!" and it turns out you're extremely incompatible and it ends in a really, really bad way.

I apologize for not reading all the posts but here's my 2 cents:

I feel its stupid to quit just because some Lang-8 friends sad bad things about you (I think that's why you are quitting apart from other reasons such as the whole not liking the Tatemae culture).

Well, I have been working with them for 2 years now and yes of course I hate the 建前culture. Most of the time I just give my "本音" and no one likes it. Problem with learning a language is that most of it is almost directly linked to the culture. You have adjust sometimes and whenever you come across a big wall, you just have to break it, because if you don't, then you don't have any other choice but to quit learning the language. I have been learning the language for 5 years now and still love it. I don't think I will ever hate Japanese because it has given me so much.

I have also been told bad things by Japanese people I know which has hurt me, but I never thought about quitting.

Besides, you are still young and have a long way to go. Every setback should just make you all more stronger to push forward.

Edit:
After reading some of the other posts, I realised that you are quitting because of difference of opinion? You are quitting because some random online Japanese friends don't like the way you think? There are more than 7 billion people in this world with 7 billion different ways of thinking. Just because you don't get along with some of them doesn't mean the language sucks and its time to quit!

To people whose only interaction with Japanese people is making friends on the internet, just please ignore whatever Nihonjinron you hear about tatemae and honne and just act normally friendlily. No one wants to do the former if they don't have to.

People exaggerate the cultural uniqueness of these things way too much, including the Japanese (who don't know much about the world outside their own borders in general anyway - "Japan is the only country with four seasons" anyone?). Everyone everywhere acts differently towards people of differing levels of closeness. The only difference is Japan has words for these things.

The only people who take this stuff seriously are the people who haven't lived both.

Ha!

Tori-kun, I can really sympathize with you. I am sure that eventually you will learn to avoid conflict with your Japanese friends and reach a compromise.

A film that will surely interest people in this forum is "Stupeur et Tremblements" (2003) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318725/

Not a great movie by any measure, but a nice cautionary tale for Japanese learners.

It is largely autobiographical. The author of the book it is based on, Amélie Northomb, was born in Japan and is native-like fluent. But then early on, her family moved back to Belgium. As an adult, she decided to go work in Japan for a firm and the film documents the tragedy/comedy that ensued. What I find interesting is that at some point, her superior (the stunningly beautiful Kaori Tsuji) told her that she definitely had a "mental problem" because she was speaking her mind. So, take heart, Tori-kun, you are not the first person to be on the receiving end of such a statement.

All cultures have norms of communication, which can even vary between generations. As an older fellow, I am deeply offended when a young store clerk addresses me using "tu" instead of "vous", or says "Allô" to me instead of "Bonjour". And I live in my native country!

Japanese culture poses exceptional demands on its members in term of avoidance of conflict and ways to relate to people in terms of hierarchy. JSL warns about this, explains this at length and it is one of the reasons why it is such a good text. I should say it is the only text that covers that essential aspect of the language. You can't just say things in Japanese without any regards to cultural norms and expect everyone to be OK with that.

I knew some Japanese expats in the past speaking about another expat, saying "She could never survive in Japan. She's too rude". I knew the person and I knew that she was extremely polite. So you see, even native Japanese can be criticized - so foreigners have to be extremely careful about this.

Avoiding conflict and respecting hierarchies: those are the two things you must NEVER forget when communicating with the Japanese.

louischa Wrote:Avoiding conflict and respecting hierarchies: those are the two things you must NEVER forget when communicating with the Japanese.

it's pretty much the same in the US too. it's just not as crystal clear as it is with keigo but there's definitely a deferential level of respect you need to show to your superiors.

as for avoiding conflict i was told to do a few things:
-never lend money to a friend. you either give it away and expect not to get it back, or you don't give them money at all.
-never talk about religion or politics.

Tori-kun Wrote:In previous discussions I also criticised a few of my friends concerning their
a) agreement on 死刑制度 being necessary and good
b) "being proud of being Japanese" statements being patriotistic
c) Japanese being dumbheaded in terms of obeying social strict hiearchical systems and stagnated value system

With rudeness such as that, I'd suggest you make no more ventures into foreign languages, and stay at home amongst your own friends.

Quote:Long story short, ultimately a)-c) and the recent discussion lead towards one of my best friends so far telling me I was mentally disordered （精神は病む　とか　健康な状態じゃない）.

That friend was just 'speaking his mind', which is an attribute of which you yourself are proud. And as it seems to be a fact, there can be no argument with it, right?

Ouch.

Tori-kun Wrote:a) I don't perceive myself as an outside nor do I perceive foreigners, i.e. Japanese, living in Germany as outsiders. Same with foreigners in Japan.

Here you say you don't consider yourself an outsider.

Tori-kun Wrote:c) If they take it as an offense, it's their problem not mine. People coming from abroad are also making provocative comments about Nazis when they talk to me and I show them the way to go/I explain frankly without being sullen or anything childish like that. Being easily offended by foreigners who are not familiar with culture, or, who don't want to be familiar with culture because they have their own one, is childish in my eyes.

Here you say they're beeing childish if they're not treating you like an outsider. You can't have the cake and eat it too.

[Zgarbas]

Tori-kun... Flame wars are just as bad regardless of what nationality the people you're having them with are...

There's a difference between a joke about Nazis and directly criticising their beliefs; hell, even the general beliefs that they might have thought about much until you insulted it. Go to any opinion website (forums, amirite, sites like that) and make a post in which you bring an understandable attack to the American army. Go post sh*t about Merkel on a German website. Walk up to someone from Eastern Europe and start talking about gypsies. I've been called retarded because they didn't believe me when I said Serbian civilians were killed in the 90's bombings, which is not really an opinion so much as a "So we were watching this town by the Danube burn and wondering how our relatives were" story.
Anyway, I'm fairly certain the results will be exactly the same as with your discussion; not because they're Japanese but because the Internet makes people more open and they will actively defend their views instead of shrugging it off and secretly lowering their opinion of you like they might do IRL. Since the Internet also makes people meaner, it's no wonder it turned to insults in the end....

I'm sorry, but this is a case of "I got offended on the Internet" and you really shouldn't blame it on the language since it's an universal situation.

P.S. If your friend is actively studying English then she might feel a bit down if you say she doesn't know it... Sure, she'll say it all the time modestly, but she won't want you acknowledging it. Calling her a beginner, or "studying" would be much more PC in any language. (Culture clash? Every German I've known was very blunt about this particular issue. "Oh my German is sh*t but..." "Yeah, it totally is" "Q.Q")

Tori-kun Wrote:「英語できないXちゃんという本当のネイティブからの添削をもらったのを嬉しく思うよ～」

I can sort of understand what you were going for here, but it is hard to see that as complimentary.

I can sort of understand why they got offended with the first one. It kinda sounded like a back-handed compliment. As for the A-C, it seems like you said what you thought and they said what they thought and both parties were mutually offended by things they viewed as offensive.

No reason to quit Japanese either way. You just have to find Japanese friends who accept you how you are. They didn't, drop em or keep them at a distance.

I find it pretty funny that the original poster is asking why he should have to act in different way while making a thread telling everyone how he is going to quit learning said language because of this very situation. I assume he didn't see that he just answered his own question? All I really see in this thread is a young person whining about them not being able to act however they please while the world bends over backwards to make sure they are always comfortable while doing so. All I can say is come back to reality as quickly as possible or you are going to have one hell of a life ahead of you.

Another problem I see, and this is something I've heard far too many times from people, is the whole "I shouldn't have to change who I am" spill. Frankly this is a load of BS and just a big fat excuse to try to make their own failures seem as if it is some righteous cause of them holding on to their individuality.

Every relatively normal person out there is perfectly capable of operating in numerous different "modes" of personality without it messing up who they are in other aspects of life, ESPECIALLY when these interactions are primarily of choice. Do you act the exact same way around your best buddies when you are out at the bar, dance club, or whatever as you do when you are around your grandmother at Sunday dinner (or input any other similar example relevant to your particular upbringing)? Of course not. You are perfectly capable of adjusting how you interact with people based on the situation without it altering who you are.

Same goes with speaking Japanese, talking to my boss, etc. When I change into "Japanese mode" I do so AS A CHOICE as I know that attempting to act in the way that the rest of Japanese society communicates and interacts is beneficial to me and that simply saying "I'm going to act how I want and they better simply recognize" is idiotic as I don't control how the rest of society operates. Do I like how it operates at all times? Hell no. Does it mean understanding this and simply knowing how to work with it to best achieve me goals forces me to "change who I am"? Hell no and anyone who attempts to say otherwise is full of it unless they are being forced against their will to study Japanese or come to Japan. Better than that I also understand that when I DO decide to step out of Japanese mode and express myself "American style" that there could very well be some blow-back. If I ran quitting something every time people who I can't control didn't act as I think they should to provide me maximum convenience then I'd be forced to sit in my room all day and never interact with anyone.

In short: Grow up.

A blunt way of putting it, but the truth no less. I agree with you on the flexibility of our personalities and how everyone should be able to change in different situations.

I think this has nothing to do with Japanese culture. If you attack other people's political opinions and beliefs, there's going to be some conflict. That's true in every country.