I don't really think this has anything to do with Japan. Just general social skills. The stuff you say you said ranges from tactless to rude (I can't speak for every person but certainly from my point of view).

I don't know the dynamic you have with your friends. eg. if you guys normally happily argue about a lot of things and they just took offense at those particular topics. But personally I wouldn't talk about contentious topics, nor would I criticise someone else's background/culture or their opinions - unless we had a close friendship, and even then I would keep in the realm of lighthearted banter.

The only place for heated polarising discussions is somewhere like a university debating society IMO.

(To be fair though, on the internet anything goes - but that also means you have to accept being flamed if you are going to say anything you want!)

louischa Wrote:... What I find interesting is that at some point, her superior (the stunningly beautiful Kaori Tsuji) told her that she definitely had a "mental problem" because she was speaking her mind. So, take heart, Tori-kun, you are not the first person to be on the receiving end of such a statement.

About this, it too seemed to me that Tori-kun ended up more aggravated by his friend calling him "mentally disordered", as if it were a suggestion for him to treat himself (or, as he interprets it in his comment, to change his personality), than by anything else:

Tori-kun Wrote:Long story short, ultimately a)-c) and the recent discussion lead towards one of my best friends so far telling me I was mentally disordered （精神は病む　とか　健康な状態じゃない）.
...
I got offended by personal insulsts like "you are a mental retard for the way you think"
...
I feel like Japanese demands my personality to change at this very point ...

The thing is, that's also very common in English – if you do or say anything slightly different from the norm, many people, especially friends, will say you're "insane / mad / deranged / crazy / nuts / mentally ill", which actually mean the same thing concerning mental health but are so commonly used in so many contexts that they've lost most of their seriousness. "You're insane for not wanting a [societal want: car, TV, real job, big house, lots of money, etc.] like everyone else!" Or, in this case, "you're crazy (for not doing things our way!)" Perhaps that's a better idiomatic translation to that statement. If that happens often enough to annoy you, you can either conform (boring) or find other people to hang out with — in Japan there are a lot of dissidents too, just like in any other country, but maybe you won't find them in Lang-8.

About the whole situation, I suggest reading the book How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World by Harry Browne and applying what he says, which includes observing what triggers unpleasant reactions from others and accepting the consequences if you do something that causes them – that's the real deal for nonconformists, not just doing things your way and wanting others to behave against their nature, which is, more often than not, being reactive, defensive, and even attacking you when you don't conform to their will.

i never would have guessed that there are self-help books for nonconformists

activeaero Wrote:I find it pretty funny that the original poster is asking why he should have to act in different way while making a thread telling everyone how he is going to quit learning said language because of this very situation. I assume he didn't see that he just answered his own question? All I really see in this thread is a young person whining about them not being able to act however they please while the world bends over backwards to make sure they are always comfortable while doing so. All I can say is come back to reality as quickly as possible or you are going to have one hell of a life ahead of you.

This whole post was brilliant, but this is especially good.

Though this may seem like I'm stating the obvious, I want you to keep in mind that face-to-face conversation and online conversation occur in very different worlds. During face-to-face conversation, you have gestures, facial expressions and tone of voice (all those things that build up 雰囲気） to make up for any particular words or phrases that may come off as rude. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why people who may ordinarily get along fine with most other people find themselves getting offended or offending others online. It is also why I don't enjoy texting my easy-to-offend contacts. Internet conversation is void of all the important little details that reassure us that "things are going good in this conversation," or "I'm getting good vibes from this person," or "he/she seems to be fond of me," and in your situation: "he is not the type of person who intends to say rude things like this."

The meaning behind what you wrote in your comment (comment a) is obviously very kind and well intended. I think that, if this comment was made in person, your friend would have been able to recognize that and would have realized you were not trying to be rude and that you are not Japanese and don't do 建前, something that has been engraved (with a very very sharp tool, I might add) onto the brains of Japanese people since childhood.

I think it would be really unfortunate to let all your Japanese abilities go to waste. Honestly, I become blown away when I read your entries and come across paragraph after well-thought out paragraph filled with words I've never seen. I don't think it's so common for a Japanese learner to come as far as you have. So, it's unfortunate to let all that go away thanks to some misunderstandings and things of the like on the internet.

素敵な笑顔のトリさん、その笑顔を使って日本で日本人の心の温めなさい。会話で作る雰囲気こそが言葉よりもずっと大切なのかもしれませんよ。

umetani666 Wrote:i never would have guessed that there are self-help books for nonconformists

But there are; many nonconformists do write self-help books, so that's a way to get in touch with a piece of their minds, and there are nonconformists who simply read a lot of stuff, regardless of labels — a number of these reads gives you new perspectives about societal rules and ideas on how to break them with minimal (or maximal) perturbation, while others give you insights about other people's conformism and suggestions on how to deal with annoying situations such as those caused by your own nonconformist behavior. Really, these things can be great additions to one's mental framework.

[s0apgun]

louischa Wrote:A film that will surely interest people in this forum is "Stupeur et Tremblements" (2003) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318725/

This film was excellent. Thanks!

Aaaand the debate continues. o_O

http://lang-8.com/342407/journals/155480...ntle-Heart

[Zgarbas]

Poor Tori-kun, he wrote a rage thread about Japanese people and all he got was people being on the other guys' side =(.

I'm closing the thread since I'm sure nothing productive can came of this. If you'd like to post a final rebuttal or something, Tori-kun, hit me up with an e-mail and I might open it temporarily for that