I always screw this up in conversation.
I can't seem to make any distinction between progressive past (-te form + past)
vs the normal past tense (-mashita)

Can anyone tell me the different between:

sushi wo tabemashita
sushi wo tabeteimashita

OR

nihongo wo benkyoushimashita
nihongo wo benkyoushiteimashita

I think you get the idea.
Thanks.

chamcham Wrote:I always screw this up in conversation.
I can't seem to make any distinction between progressive past (-te form + past)
vs the normal past tense (-mashita)

Can anyone tell me the different between:

sushi wo tabemashita
sushi wo tabeteimashita

OR

nihongo wo benkyoushimashita
nihongo wo benkyoushiteimashita

I think you get the idea.
Thanks.

Sure.

I ate sushi
I was eating sushi

I studied Japanese
I was studying Japanese

Tobberoth Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:I always screw this up in conversation.
I can't seem to make any distinction between progressive past (-te form + past)
vs the normal past tense (-mashita)

Can anyone tell me the different between:

sushi wo tabemashita
sushi wo tabeteimashita

OR

nihongo wo benkyoushimashita
nihongo wo benkyoushiteimashita

I think you get the idea.
Thanks.

Sure.

I ate sushi
I was eating sushi

I studied Japanese
I was studying Japanese

The te form is used in Japanese very often when "was doing" would not be used in English and vice versa. That's what makes it so tricky. It's almost never a direct translation. "What did you say?" is usually "何って言ってた?" for example.

I don't know the rule though. I just go by feeling and try to repeat what I hear.

Edit: Well, maybe I shouldn't say almost never, but often enough to make it confusing.

That's because translation is irrelevant. Just because you say something a certain way in Japanese doesn't mean it has to be said the same way in English.

Besides, 何って言ってた? sounds exactly like "you were saying?" to me.

Tobberoth Wrote:Besides, 何って言ってた? sounds exactly like "you were saying?" to me.

It can be but it can also mean "What did you say."

thistime Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Besides, 何って言ってた? sounds exactly like "you were saying?" to me.

It can be but it can also mean "What did you say."

No it can't mean that. It can just be used in that situation, unlike English; it still means the same thing. The meaning of -ていた is quite clear, what you're confused about it how Japanese uses progressive past compared to English.

jmkeralis Wrote:What you call "normal" past tense is past perfect (in grammar speak) - in other words, an action already completed. -te past is imperfect past.

Grammar speak! It's evil! Although I think Jarvik has perfected it

Things like perfect and imperfect tense are taught in school. They're pretty straightforward. Calling them "grammatical concepts" is going slightly overboard I think.

While the comparison to English and French grammar is useful for some uses of -ている、reliance on it can quickly confuse learners when they encounter the slightly different uses that Japanese has. It depends on things like time of completion, time of speaking continued state and progression. (I think this is what thistime is referring to).

It's probably a good idea to have a quick look at an explanation of it, but to rely on exposure to really get it. I'll post a link to an explanation when I find it. But I imagine it would covered in any textbook.

Tobberoth Wrote:

thistime Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Besides, 何って言ってた? sounds exactly like "you were saying?" to me.

It can be but it can also mean "What did you say."

No it can't mean that. It can just be used in that situation, unlike English; it still means the same thing. The meaning of -ていた is quite clear, what you're confused about it how Japanese uses progressive past compared to English.

I understand your point about trying to associate English translations. But the meaning of ている　can depend on the meaning of the verb (what makes sense) and can sometimes be ambiguous without the context.

(1) The progressive use you're talking about (be V-ing) :

勉強しています　　 　　I am studying
勉強していました　　　　　I was studying
二年勉強しています I have been studying for 2 years (time period given or context)
二年勉強していました　　　 had been studying for 2 years

Usually transitive verbs. But some intransitive verbs too - typically motion verbs (歩いている, 走っている), but not always (泣いている)

(2) The continuous state of a completed action：

魚が死んでいます　　　　　　　　The fish is dead (not "is dying")
戸が閉まっています　　　　　　　The door is closed. (vs. 戸を閉めている - is closing the door)
先生が来ています　　　　　　　　The teacher is here (not "is coming")
先生が行っています　　　　　　　The teacher is there.

In this sense, a momentary action occurred in the past.
Usually intransitive. But some transitive too - 忘れている、覚えている

(3) Ambiguous without some context:

Sometimes even momentary verbs can be progessive if, for eg, they are interpreted to mean a repetitive action. ジョンは大学に行っています　could mean "John is at the university" or "John goes to university" (because he goes every day).

Similarly, verbs that might commonly have a progessive meaning (書いている - is reading), can have a completed action meaning if they are considered to have some effect on the situation now. 先生は本をたくさん書いています　can also mean "The teacher has written many books". thistimes' example probably fits under this category.

Well, at least that's what we were taught. I'm sure Prof Jarvik will chime in if things have changed or I've mucked up the explanation =]

Thora Wrote:thistimes' example probably fits under this category.

Here's the story of where I got that from

My husband said something to mean and I didn't hear him so I said "何って言った？because I was thinking "What did you say?" and he said, "You should say "何って言ってた？" And I said, "Even if it's "what did you say?" in English and he said, "usually in Japanese when you didn't hear what someone just said you will say, "何って言ってた？"

That's the best way. Lucky you! As I said earlier - "It's probably a good idea to have a quick look at an explanation of it, but to rely on exposure to really get it."

I'm not certain your example fits in that category - I learned it from use as well. And I'm sure there are heaps of idiomatic expressions that don't into any nice categories. I still think it's helpful to have some flexible framework in your head as you encounter real life examples. Makes it easier to avoid some miscommunication right from the start.

btw "to me" or "too mean" - maybe that's why you didn't hear him. =]

Thora Wrote:btw "to me" or "too mean" - maybe that's why you didn't hear him. =]

Haha. Yeah I noticed that after I wrote it. I meant to say "to me"

And I agree. Having the basics down is good but feeling and exposure really is the only way to really "get" it, I think.

Thora Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

thistime Wrote:It can be but it can also mean "What did you say."

No it can't mean that. It can just be used in that situation, unlike English; it still means the same thing. The meaning of -ていた is quite clear, what you're confused about it how Japanese uses progressive past compared to English.

I understand your point about trying to associate English translations. But the meaning of ている　can depend on the meaning of the verb (what makes sense) and can sometimes be ambiguous without the context.

(1) The progressive use you're talking about (be V-ing) :

勉強しています　　 　　I am studying
勉強していました　　　　　I was studying
二年勉強しています I have been studying for 2 years (time period given or context)
二年勉強していました　　　 had been studying for 2 years

Usually transitive verbs. But some intransitive verbs too - typically motion verbs (歩いている, 走っている), but not always (泣いている)

(2) The continuous state of a completed action：

魚が死んでいます　　　　　　　　The fish is dead (not "is dying")
戸が閉まっています　　　　　　　The door is closed. (vs. 戸を閉めている - is closing the door)
先生が来ています　　　　　　　　The teacher is here (not "is coming")
先生が行っています　　　　　　　The teacher is there.

In this sense, a momentary action occurred in the past.
Usually intransitive. But some transitive too - 忘れている、覚えている

(3) Ambiguous without some context:

Sometimes even momentary verbs can be progessive if, for eg, they are interpreted to mean a repetitive action. ジョンは大学に行っています　could mean "John is at the university" or "John goes to university" (because he goes every day).

Similarly, verbs that might commonly have a progessive meaning (書いている - is reading), can have a completed action meaning if they are considered to have some effect on the situation now. 先生は本をたくさん書いています　can also mean "The teacher has written many books". thistimes' example probably fits under this category.

Well, at least that's what we were taught. I'm sure Prof Jarvik will chime in if things have changed or I've mucked up the explanation =]

Not that your post isn't interesting, I just don't agree that -te iru changes meaning by itself in ANY of those situations. It's all about what the verbs mean in those contexts, not what -te iru signifies. It's of course a matter of definition, but I really don't see the point in making a distinction, outside of translation between Japanese and English.

先生が行っています, while translating this as "the teacher is going" is completely wrong in English, it obviously isn't in Japanese. While they mean that the teacher is somewhere else and not actively going there, what they are saying grammatically is that the teacher is in the act of going somewhere and being there. The important part of -te iru is state, not weather the action is dynamic or static. From my point of view, -te iru isn't changing meaning at all, it's just a broader concept than V-ing in English, which means that you can't use the same translation in all situations.

We're saying the same thing in essence (that ~ている　doesn't equal "is Verbing"), but disagreeing about what to do with that knowledge.

Tobberoth Wrote:I just don't agree that -te iru changes meaning by itself in ANY of those situations. It's all about what the verbs mean in those contexts, not what -te iru signifies.

Yes, that's what I meant by: "the meaning of ている　can depend on the meaning of the verb (what makes sense) and can sometimes be ambiguous without the context." I guess I wasn't clear. I didn't mean ~ている　itself has 3 different meanings, but that it's use is much broader than our understanding of gerund, progressive or "is Verb ing". So such descriptions aren't enough.

Tobberoth Wrote:It's of course a matter of definition, but I really don't see the point in making a distinction, outside of translation between Japanese and English.

The distinctions exist whether you translate them or not. The uses of ～ている　may all have something to do with 'state', but Japanese understand the differences and we need to as well. The question is how to best explain those differences. English translations are just a shortcut to help students grasp the different uses and understand how Japanese handles some concepts differently. One could explain the different uses entirely in Japanese (but that's not typically an option for beginners).

Without understanding those differences, it will be difficult to accurately interpret and use the form. And isn't that the ultimate goal?

Tobberoth Wrote:先生が行っています, while translating this as "the teacher is going" is completely wrong in English, it obviously isn't in Japanese. While they mean that the teacher is somewhere else and not actively going there, what they are saying grammatically is that the teacher is in the act of going somewhere and being there.

[In other words, the teacher has gone there (period of activity) and remains there. With the dead fish, there is no period of activity. It's all about the resulting state. But a student who learns that ~ている　is progressive will assume that the teacher is going and the fish is dying. That's why I think the different interpretations should be shown. Trying to map it to the "is Verbing" grammar introduces unnecessary mental fudging.] [reworded]

eg: 田中さんは1980に高校を卒業したいる。

btw to the OP: I realize you only asked about progressive past. My tendency to err on the side of inclusion may have made this unnecessarily long.

Thora Wrote:先生が来ています　　　　　　　　The teacher is here (not "is coming")

I've never seen this before (likely because I'm not studying enough). What is the difference between that sentence and 先生がここにいます？

captal Wrote:I've never seen this before (likely because I'm not studying enough). What is the difference between that sentence and 先生がここにいます？

This may sound trite, but the difference is that in one you're saying he's here, and the other you're saying he's come and is here. It's all about what you want to say.

QuackingShoe Wrote:

captal Wrote:I've never seen this before (likely because I'm not studying enough). What is the difference between that sentence and 先生がここにいます？

This may sound trite, but the difference is that in one you're saying he's here, and the other you're saying he's come and is here. It's all about what you want to say.

Right.

先生がここにいますjust means very basically the teacher is here. The teacher's physical placement/existence is here.

先生はどこですか？
ここにいますよ
Where is the teacher?
He's right here.

先生が来ていますmeans the teacher has been in the process of coming and has come.

まだ先生が来てませんか？
もう来ていましたよ.
Isn't the teacher here yet?
Yeah, he's already here.

Thanks, I understand- it's just like when you use 持ってきたー I brought ____ - because the process already occurred.

May I comment on Thora's posts from a native speaker's perspective?

As he said, there are multiple meanings in verb-ている. So when you try to translate two Japanese sentences containing the form, sometimes tenses in English translations are mutually different because different senses are used in the source sentences. Sometimes translations are different because the same sense in Japanese can be represented in grammatically different ways.

My grammar isn't good (read: horrible), so I only give examples here:

This Japanese sentence 彼は本を書いています。can be interpreted in at least two ways. The first sense is "He is writing a book." He may be working hard in his study now. But it doesn't necessarily mean he is literally writing words right now. If he hasn't finished his book yet and the listener doesn't know he's working on a book, then you can say 彼は本を書いています。For example, the author may also be talking with you and you're just introducing him to another person who doesn't know he will publish his maiden work soon. I'm not sure these are different senses, but I'm guessing they could be translated in different tenses in some languages.

The second sense is "He has published a book (books)." He already wrote at least one book.

So the sentences can be interpreted in at least 2+1 ways. Whether this is due to 書く or -ている are beyond my knowledge.

As for "What did you say?", you can say 何と言いましたか。depending on context. If it's like "Sorry, what did you say? My mind was wandering," then it's 何と言いましたか。 If you mean "What did you just say?!" when you're surprised, then 今何て言った。is often used in informal conversations. If a person attended a meeting you missed and if he or she said someone had talked about you, then you'd say 何て言ってましたか。Here's an example conversation where 言う appears in various tenses:

You: I'm sooooo cute. （私ちょぉーーー可愛い。）
Me: What are you talking about? （何言ってんの？）
You: I said I'm sooooo cute. （私ちょぉーーー可愛いって言ったの。）
Me: No. You're not. （いや、可愛くないんだけど。）
You: Jarvik7 says I'm super cute. I will marry him. （Jarvik7は私のこと超可愛いって言ってるよ。彼と結婚するもん。）
Me: Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. He said he was straight. （おいおい、ちょっとまて。あいつノンケだって言ってたぞ。）

captal Wrote:

Thora Wrote:先生が来ています　　　　　　　　The teacher is here (not "is coming")

I've never seen this before (likely because I'm not studying enough). What is the difference between that sentence and 先生がここにいます？

先生がここにいます is just a simple fact that a/the teacher is here while 先生が来ています implies a/the teacher is doing something here or came here to do something.

俺の彼女はそれを読んだら泣くよ

Thoraは女の人だと思うんですが、、

magamo Wrote:May I comment on Thora's posts from a native speaker's perspective?

As he said, there are multiple meanings in verb-ている. So when you try to translate two Japanese sentences containing the form, sometimes tenses in English translations are mutually different because different senses are used in the source sentences. Sometimes translations are different because the same sense in Japanese can be represented in grammatically different ways.

My grammar isn't good (read: horrible), so I limit myself to give examples:

This Japanese sentence 彼は本を書いています。can be interpreted in at least two ways. The first sense is "He is writing a book." He may be working hard in his study now. But it doesn't necessarily mean he is literally writing words right now. If he hasn't finished his book yet and the listener doesn't know he's working on a book, then you can say 彼は本を書いています。For example, the author may also be talking with you and you're just introducing him to another person who doesn't know he will publish his maiden work soon. I'm not sure these are different senses, but I'm guessing they could be translated in different tenses in some languages.

The second sense is "He has published a book (books)." He already wrote at least one book.

So the sentences can be interpreted in at least 2+1 ways. Whether this is due to 書く or -ている are beyond my knowledge.

As for "What did you say?", you can say 何と言いましたか。depending on context. If it's like "Sorry, what did you say? My mind was wandering," then it's 何と言いましたか。 If you mean "What did you just say?!" when you're surprised, then 今何て言った。is often used in informal conversations. If a person attended a meeting that you missed and if he or she said someone had talked about you, then you'd say 何て言ってましたか。Here's an example conversation where 言う appears in various tenses:

You: I'm sooooo cute. （私ちょぉーーー可愛い。）
Me: What are you talking about? （何言ってんの？）
You: I said I'm sooooo cute. （私ちょぉーーー可愛いって言ったの。）
Me: No. You're not. （いや、可愛くないんだけど。）
You: Jarvik7 says I'm super cute. I will marry him. （Jarvik7は私のこと超可愛いって言ってるよ。彼と結婚するもん。）
Me: Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. He said he was straight. （おいおい、ちょっとまて。あいつノンケだって言ってたぞ。）

captal Wrote:

Thora Wrote:先生が来ています　　　　　　　　The teacher is here (not "is coming")

I've never seen this before (likely because I'm not studying enough). What is the difference between that sentence and 先生がここにいます？

先生がここにいます is just a simple fact that a/the teacher is here while 先生が来ています implies a/the teacher is doing something here or came here to do something.

Thanks it's good to have a native's perspective.

I notice that my husband uses "何って言ってた”　more than (and even in most cases) ”何って言った” when he wasn't paying attention to me (which happens a lot ) and he needs me to repeat myself. Maybe it's a regional thing? I'll have to keep an ear out for how I hear others say it. Hmm. Oh well, not too important. Thanks for the explanation.

Results 1 - 10 of about 10,800 for "何って言った". (0.15 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 6,850,000 for "何って言っていた". (0.19 seconds)

The remarkably few results of the first search suggests that it lies in the realm of grammatical mistake (by natives or JSL).

hmm Do colloquial spoken words show up much in [Google] written pages?

edit: I remember 言ってた too.

thistime Wrote:I notice that my husband uses "何って言ってた”　more than (and even in most cases) ”何って言った” when he wasn't paying attention to me (which happens a lot ) and he needs me to repeat myself. Maybe it's a regional thing? I'll have to keep an ear out for how I hear others say it. Hmm. Oh well, not too important. Thanks for the explanation.

何て言ってた？ are often used when you want the speaker to repeat a relatively long sentence or multiple sentences. If two native speakers are talking with each other, then most likely the listener only wants to hear a word or two again, and hence 何て言った? is more common.

For example, if your mind was wandering for a minute, you might want to say 何て言ってた？. Another realistic situation is when your roommate just hung up the phone. If you want to know what the person on the other side was saying, then you could use 何て言ってた？ You only know the half of the dialogue.

Edit: If your husband wasn't paying attention, then most likely he says 何て言ってた？.

Things get trickier when a native speaker wants a non-native speaker to repeat what he or she just said. For example, non-native speakers might speak slower and use more words than necessary, which could make your husband want to use 何て言ってた？ rather than 何て言った?. It could also be possible that he's assuming you can't repeat succinctly like native speakers. Usually native speakers only repeat/paraphrase part of sentences listeners could mishear/misunderstand, but it could be very difficult for non-native speakers to know what they should say again. Also, native speakers may fail to understand what the key points are because of unnatural intonation or idiosyncratic wording, so he might want you to repeat the whole sentence again.

It could be regional, but at least that's how I use 何て言った? and 何て言ってた？.

By the way, って often becomes て after ん, so なんって usually becomes なんて in standard Japanese.