Thora Wrote:Tobberoth Wrote:It's of course a matter of definition, but I really don't see the point in making a distinction, outside of translation between Japanese and English.
The distinctions exist whether you translate them or not. The uses of ～ている may all have something to do with 'state', but Japanese understand the differences and we need to as well. The question is how to best explain those differences. English translations are just a shortcut to help students grasp the different uses and understand how Japanese handles some concepts differently. One could explain the different uses entirely in Japanese (but that's not typically an option for beginners).
Without understanding those differences, it will be difficult to accurately interpret and use the form. And isn't that the ultimate goal?
That's the thing though. A native has already been in this topic discussing it so it's of course very possible that I'm wrong, but I'm sorta thinking that just because in English there are two different grammatical concepts used, we see a difference there. Japanese people use their "broad gerund" or whatever instead, so they don't actively think about a difference, because they aren't wording any difference.
I don't think Japanese 小学生 are taught the different "meanings" of -ている, because I think the whole idea that ている changes meaning comes from an English perspective where the concepts used there (like gerund) are just a lot more specific.
From a pure Japanese standpoint, I'm sure the meaning of ている could be defined so that it doesn't change at all in those situations. We only need to learn those changes because we actively said that ている = gerund, and that's why exceptions pop up. Someone who learned Japanese through context is probably not going to realize or care that, from an English perspective, ている means something completely different in 来ています, they are going to understand it regardless.
I would see if from the verbs. 来る is an instantaneous verb. It happens in an instant. You can't be "coming" somewhere, you can just be traveling somewhere and eventually come. The act of 来る happens and ends when the door is opened. Since it's instantaneous, the state form HAS to refer to having come somewhere. Same with death. You die in an instant, it can't take time, you're alive until you're dead (Here again, the confusion comes from English. In English, you can say "I'm dying" but from a logical standpoint, that makes no sense. You going to die, you're not actually dying). So -ている just means a verb happened and then continued. In all situations. When it was an instantaneous action, it just means the state entered with that instantaneous action continued. You can stop 来るing by going home, but you can't stop 死ぬing. It really doesn't matter for the meaning of ている though.
Edited: 2009-06-12, 6:52 am
