あなた　　　貴方 {ir.}　　　貴男　　　貴女 <-- does anyone know the differences?

この　　　斯の　　　此の <-- does anyone know the differences?
その　　　其の
あの　　　彼の
どの　　　何の

これ　　　之　　　之れ　　　惟 此れ <-- does anyone know the differences?
それ　　　其れ
あれ　　　彼
どれ　　　何れ

こちら　　此方
そちら　　其方
あちら　　彼方　　　<-- it should be this Kanji, but I can’t write it with IME, why?
どちら　　　　<-- found no Kanji, it should be 何方, or not?

ここ　　　此処　　　此所
そこ　　　其処
あこ　　　彼処　　　彼所
どこ　　　何処　　　何所 <-- does anyone know the differences between ...処 and ...所?

だれ　　　誰
どなた　　何方
どう　　　如何　　　<-- could also meaning いかが
いくら　　　幾ら
いつ　　　何時　 <-- could also meaning なんじ or なんどき (but should only used for なんじ)

いる　　　居る
ある　　　或る (= 'a certain' or 'some)
在る　(for existence)
有る (for Possession)

なる　　　成る　　　為る
する　　　為る　　　<-- it should be this Kanji, but I can’t write it with IME, why?

まだ　　　未だ
また　　　又　　　復　　　亦　　　<-- does anyone know the differences?
あまり　　余り
かなり　　可成　　　可也　　　<-- does anyone know the differences?

とても　　　迚も　　　<-- cannot write it with IME, why?
たくさん　　沢山

きれい　　　綺麗　　　奇麗　　　<-- does anyone know the differences?

すみません　　　済みません
おはよう　　　御早う
おやすみなさい　　　御休みなさい
さようなら　　　左様なら

ありがとう　　　 有難う
ございます　　　 御座居ます
どういたしまして　如何致しまして
ごめん 　　　御免

EDIT: made some parts bold, after answer from Aijin

From my own experience in reading books, some of these appear pretty often. 沢山 or 余り for example.

My Sensei use very often 誰, 何時, 沢山 or 余り.

In her 'time', as she said herself, it was part of high education to write much in Kanji. If she writes protocolls, nobody of the younger generation can read it. :-)

In the first list I forgot:
いい　　　良い　　　好い　　　善い　　　吉い　　　佳い
all mean 'good; excellent; fine; nice; pleasant; agreeable'

Why are there so many of them?

@Teskal: get yourself a "tsukaiwake" dictionary if you are interested in the subject.

Japanese readings (usually) predate kanji's entry into Japan. At that time the native Japanese words (ex よい) were all just one word with a broad meaning. When kanji came they just applied that word to all the kanji which had a similar meaning (to put it simply). That said, all of those よい do not mean the same thing and most of them are very rare. 吉い is only listed in 2 of my ~40 dictionaries.

I use 誰 and 或る exclusively.

Jarvik7 Wrote:@Teskal: get yourself a "tsukaiwake" dictionary if you are interested in the subject.

Something like that?
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%...187&sr=8-1

Possibly, but I've never used it. Check out a university library if there is one nearby, they may have some.

That seems to be a word tsukaiwake dictionary though, not kanji. It might have both, but probably focuses on stuff like when one should use 高い (背が高い) and when one should use 長い (足が長い) etc.

The next university is to far away. :-(

But I saw your entry about this dict's in the ある　在る　有る thread, I will look if I will get the book.

Teskal Wrote:あなた　　　貴方 {ir.}　　　貴男　　　貴女 <-- does anyone know the differences?

貴方 is the most widely used kanji for あなた and can be used to refer to either sex. 貴男 is more commonly read as たかお and refers only to male, where as 貴女 is usually read as きじょ, and refers only to women. Both 貴男 and 貴女 can be read as あなた though, yes. Also, those two variations are more intimate than 貴方. Spouses/lovers would call each other 貴男 or 貴女.

Quote:この　　　斯の　　　此の <-- does anyone know the differences?

斯の is no longer used for この. It was in days long gone. 此の is the correct choice.

Quote:これ　　　之　　　之れ　　　惟 <-- does anyone know the differences?

The variations are: 此れ, 之, 是, and 惟. 此れ is the most common now adays. There really isn't any difference except in regards to the time periods they were introduced and more widespread back when Mandarin had a stronger influence.

Quote:あちら　　彼方　　　<-- it should be this Kanji, but I can’t write it with IME, why?

I am on a mac and the input for 彼方 works fine. On other systems it might not be one of the options simply because the kanji form has fallen out of popular use.

Quote:どちら　　どちら　　<-- found no Kanji, it should be 何ちら, or not?

何方

Quote:どこ　　　何処　　　何所 <-- does anyone know the differences between ...処 and ...所?

何処 and it's traditional form, 何處, are/were more popular. Both are correct though.

Quote:いつ　　　何時　 <-- could also meaning なんじ　　　なんどき

I advise against using this kanji form, simply because なんじ is written the same way. Use いつ.

Quote:する　　　為る　　　<-- it should be this Kanji, but I can’t write it with IME, why?

Even the most devout lovers of wide-kanji-usage rarely use the kanji form. My computer will only let me use the traditional 爲る.

Quote:とても　　　迚も　　　<-- cannot write it with IME, why?

Again, likely because it's very rarely written in kanji. I use it myself sometimes, though, and my Mac has no problem converting it to kanji form.

Quote:きれい　　　綺麗　　　奇麗　　　<-- does anyone know the differences?

綺麗 is the original way of writing the character, where as 奇麗 is more of a shorthand way that has grown in popularity in the past few decades. I advise against using 奇 instead of 綺 though, as 奇 means more along the lines of oddity/something standing out for it's strangeness. 綺 is beauty, romance, and finnery.

すみません　　　済みません
おはよう　　　御早う

Quote:おやすみなさい　　　御休みなさい

御 can be used for the regular お, but be careful when you use it. In some words it completely changes the meaning. 御茶 is tea served to kings, for example, not simple お茶.

In general these things are fine to use for flair and to add individuality to your writing style. Just be careful that you don't use too arcane of kanji forms, as people won't understand you, or use them too much.

This is a very useful thread. I'll probably go back through my vocabulary deck and add in the kanji forms for words that have these as entries. It's not always about using rare forms just because you can (I'm looking at you Khatzumoto), but recognizing rare forms when they are used.

Thanks Teskal and Aijin.

No problem, always glad to help

I think it's very important to be able to recognize the kanji forms simply because when people can't it creates a gap between them and the writings of the past generations, when these forms were in higher use.

WowXD
Great explanation Aijin
Thank you

Nice list Teskal.
Good job Aijin 先生！

Aijin Wrote:おはよう　　　御早う

Quote:おやすみなさい　　　御休みなさい

御 can be used for the regular お, but be careful when you use it. In some words it completely changes the meaning. 御茶 is tea served to kings, for example, not simple お茶.

Thanks Aijin.

I didn't know that using 御 instead of お could change the meaning of the word.

I know that it can have the reading
お (mostly Japanese Word)、
ゴ (chinese Words)
み (only for the Tenno).

I read just know that there are more readings: ギョ and おん。

haha nice!

Wow, same thing even applies for 御酒　ｖｓ　お酒　＝D?　, I just e-dicted then

I can find nothing to corroborate 御茶 vs お茶 being different in my dictionaries. In fact none of them even have any entry for お茶, instead listing it under 御茶 or △御茶.

例：

大辞林 Wrote:お-ちゃ [0] 【御茶】
(1)茶を丁寧にいう語。「—をいれる」「—をたてる」
(2)茶道。「—を習う」
(3)仕事の途中でする小休止。茶菓などの飲食をする。「三時の—にしよう」
(4)紅茶·コーヒーなどの飲み物。また,それを飲むこと。「—に誘う」

However, for 酒 it can change:

Quote:ご-しゅ [0] 【御酒】
飲む人やくれた人を敬って,その酒を丁寧にいう語。お酒。みき。

vs no entry for お酒 (just 酒, which can have an honorific applied just like any other noun)

You could easily make an argument for 茶 vs お茶 having slightly different meanings though, since the version with the honorific has also taken idiomatic meanings 2,3,4 above. Whereas meaning #1 is the same for every honorific+noun combination.

Same thing for 門 (かど) vs 御門 (みかど). Both mean gate, but the second has also taken on the idiomatic meaning of 天皇 (by referring to the gates of his residence).

While Aijin is right (but used a bad example), it's more a case of creating ambiguity by kanjifying the honorific, so the reader doesn't know which way to read it.

御門 can be read as みかど (the emperor) or as ごもん (simply an honorific word for gate). Without ふりがな the reader might not know which. Same for 御酒 (おさけ-honors the sake／ごしゅ-honors the drinker of it／みき-sake for the gods).

「ありがとう」
I have only seen it here in Japan with the 「り」 in between like this:
「有り難う」
So I am guessing it's more frequent like that.
^^

-Mesqueeb

Jarvik7 Wrote:I can find nothing to corroborate 御茶 vs お茶 being different in my dictionaries. In fact none of them even have any entry for お茶, instead listing it under 御茶 or △御茶.

A problem with dictionaries is often they're confined to the time period they were created in. In more recent dictionaries the distinction isn't made, and it's the same for my newer dictionaries. That simply reflects the modern usage. 御茶 as being more specific to tea served to royalty is centuries old, and you'll find it in more elaborate old dictionaries, as well in literature from the old periods in scenes depicting tea being served to royal bloodlines.

Another thing important to note about 御 is that it's more polite than お. In literal definition it's simply the kanji form of the honorific, but since it is rarely used now adays, its use creates much more formality. 御母さん is more respectful than お母さん, just as お母さん is more respectful than plain 母. Now adays one mostly sees 御 in very formal documentation.

I guess you could compare it to how older forms/usages in English aren't included in basic English dictionaries, and only old versions/specialized dictionaries will include those entries. It'd almost be like looking up words from Chaucer in the new Oxford dictionary; o course they won't be there but that doesn't mean they weren't in use/aren't words (bad example, since 御茶 isn't Middle Japanese, but you get the idea)

wow, really fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, Mr. Aijin.

With all this talk of respect with the written form which is indistinguishable if spoken, I'm reminded of an issue of Spiderman:

Spiderman: "Man, they let anyone into the airport"
Doctor Doom: "I am not just anyone, I am DOCTOR DOOM!!!"
Spiderman: "Wow, how do you do that?"
Doctor Doom: "Do what?"
Spiderman: "Talk in capital letters like that."
Doctor Doom: "Silence you whelp"

Part of the attraction of Japanese is you can be subtle with the writings. A pain sometimes, but still enjoyable.

bennyb Wrote:wow, really fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, Mr. Aijin.

Ms.

迄（まで）、且つ（かつ）、但し（ただし）、然し（しかし）and 御目出度う (おめでとう）may potentially bear addition to this list.

On the other hand, I consider 余り、又、誰、未だ（which I habitually read as いまだ）、居る、the あるs (for the purposes of differentiation) and 成る as 成す to be quite ordinary, that is, not unreasonably pedantic.

Writing something like 有難う is just silly though. Like spelling Mark with an 'e'. Or color with a 'u'. You know what I mean. With apologies to the British.

Aijin Wrote:

bennyb Wrote:wow, really fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, Mr. Aijin.

Ms.

Ms. and the ring finger strategically cuts off exactly at the critical point in her pic. A true 忍者 this one is!

Aijin Wrote:

bennyb Wrote:wow, really fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, Mr. Aijin.

Ms.

Maybe if you changed you avatar to a huge bloody icecream cone people could tell the difference. Sheesh.

I'd say put a half-naked man body there, but then people would just think you're gay. lolz.

methanol Wrote:On the other hand, I consider 余り、又、誰、未だ（which I habitually read as いまだ）、居る、the あるs (for the purposes of differentiation) and 成る as 成す to be quite ordinary, that is, not unreasonably pedantic.

Writing something like 有難う is just silly though. Like spelling Mark with an 'e'. Or color with a 'u'. You know what I mean. With apologies to the British.

Yeah, all the ones you mentioned are pretty common. I never write any of those out in kana, and when I see 誰 in hiragana in makes me want to kick the person in the balls for being lazy

有難う is just too strange. Some things just shouldn't be written in kanji

Aijin Wrote:when I see 誰 in hiragana in makes me want to kick the person in the balls for being lazy

有難う is just too strange. Some things just shouldn't be written in kanji

I wouldn't mind seeing a cute girl kick a former Prime Minister in the crotch:

http://www.kantei.go.jp/jp/koizumispeech...4wsis.html

小泉純一郎 Wrote:...だれでも居ながらにして外国のお店で買い物ができるなど、世界中の人々の生活やビジネスが大きく変わりました。...ご清聴有難うございました。

By the way, I also write だれ in hiragana when I want to.