Jarvik7 Wrote:Another explanation is "new information vs old information"

Whether it's new or old is irrelevant. For example,

You: I've been meaning to say this, but I-I prefer boys...
Your girlfriend: WTF.
You: I said I'm gay! I love cute boys!!
Your girlfriend: Y-You love cute boys?! Hooray! I'm a huge fan of yaoi light novels!

The "Y-You love cute boys?!" would be "可愛い男の子が好きなの？". Of course, 可愛い男の子 is old information, but still your girlfriend uses が because she thinks it's very important. What actually makes her use が is the "surprise," which makes her think 可愛い男の子 is more important. You can also see that the old-or-new rule doesn't work in the 本は好き？ or 本が好き? examples in my previous post. You can't conclude if you should use は or が if you're thinking whether 本 is new or old. Here's another example:

You: I've been meaning to say this, but I'm in love with your mother...
Your girlfriend: WTF.
You: I said I love your mom!! Yes! I've been cheating on you!
Your girlfriend: Y-You love my mom?! What a coincidence! I just slept with your dad!

The "Y-You love my mom?!" would be "私のお母さんが好きなの？" because 私のお母さん is much more important than 好き in this sentence in spite of the fact that it's old information. Of course, you can replace her mom with another thing such as a proper noun.

New information is most likely important than other things, but old information can be very important, too.

As for 私はしゅんです, imagine there are two Shuns in a room. If you want to say, "I'm Shun. And he's also Shun. lol confusing!" then it'd be 私はしゅんです。そして彼もしゅんです。はは、ややこしいですね。

If you said, "私がしゅんです," then people would say "So, the other Shun is bogus" because you'd sound like you were saying "I am Shun."

Jarvik7 Wrote:note: this post is ugly because I currently cannot input Japanese due to an Anki bug.

You might have to restart your computer- I've lost the ability to input Japanese due to Anki before as well.

I did know about the new/old information thing- like 昔，昔、おばあさんがいました。- introducing the old woman

おばあさんは優しいです- the old woman is old info, and her being kind is new info so that takes は

But seeing magamo's new post, it makes sense- the new information just happens to be the important information and the old, the unimportant.

Important vs. unimportant - I like the arrows
<-が
は->

@magamo
Where did you get that stuff? Very clever examples! :lol:

Historically, ha is derived from conditional ba. "X ha Y desu" therefore can be interpreted as "speaking of X, it is Y" (X to ieba, Y desu). In other words, X has to be established information. That can mean either that it has been directly established in the discourse, or it is a common knowledge noun like "books" "television" "America".

New/old explanation still stands with your examples.

-For the cute boys & your mom examples, the part you pasted contains no new information of it's own. It is a simple re-iteration of the first speaker's statement. Even if you switched it to ha, it would still be pointing at something that was previously said (suki). In any case, something that elicits surprise is linguistically new information.

example:
1. ame ga futta! (surprise that rain fell)
2. ame ha futta. (it was already expected to rain, simple statement that it now has fallen)

1's new information is the rain. It would have the same meaning if it was simply "ame da!". 2's new information is futta. The rain that was already known about has now fallen. There is no surprise. It could be understood simply by "futta" since the rest is already known.

-For the hon/terebi example, both "books" and "television" are established information since they are common nouns. New/old information isn't the best way to describe it really. It means that it is information that has not been established in the current discourse (and isn't a common noun). When the speaker is just asking about random nouns he isn't establishing new subjects (the subject stays "suki"), but then he jumps to conclusions and establishes tv as a new subject, expecting that the listener will say yes and then have a conversation about it. Followups to the "terebi ga suki" would use ha, since terebi is now established.
example:
a: hon ha suki?
b: iie
a: terebi ga suki?
b: sou ne
a: terebi ha dame da yo, misugitara noumiso ga kusaru!

-For the two Shuns example, you are starting a new discourse. You are establishing "Shun" into that discourse which is new information. New information doesn't mean that whoever was listening didn't know your name. A discourse starts empty except for general knowledge (the sun, books, etc). Into that discourse you added the new information "Shun". 'mo' then refers to that newly established information in the next sentence.

"watashi ga shun" is odd in the same conversation because it establishes a new subject as "me", so the mo in the next sentence has nothing to refer to (He is also me?).

There are some other ways in which ha is used that don't relate to new/old (such as contrasting clauses) and there are certainly some ambiguous cases, but for basic usage of ha/ga the new/old explanation is the standard one used in linguistics.

Hmm... I'm not sure what "linguistically new information" means, but if that kind of thing can turn old info into a "new" thing, then that could be it. But:

Jarvik7 Wrote:Even if you switched it to ha, it would still be pointing at something that was previously said (suki).

If you say 可愛い男の子は好きなの？ in the situation, it sounds ridiculous. It's as if 可愛い男の子 has never been said before, i.e., the very new information... What do you think of this? If your rule is valid, it should sound like old info, shouldn't it? But it doesn't. Or is this "linguistically old information"? If that's the case, it's quite confusing if you ask me...

Jarvik7 Wrote:Note that it could just as easily be "hon ga suki?" on the first line or "terebi ha suki" in a's second line.

No. If the first sentence of "a" was 本が好き?, then "b" could say something like "WTF makes you think I like reading books?!" or "Um, no. So, why did you ask the strange question that was emphasizing 本? Do I look like a nerd?" Also, there IS a difference in connotation/nuance between テレビが好き？ and テレビは好き？. The nuances are already said in the post I gave the examples.

Seriously, whether a noun is common or not doesn't seem to be relevant. My mind doesn't work like that.

It becomes more apparent when you point your finger at something while saying "これはXXX" and "これがYYY." XXX and YYY can be anything. Can you feel what your finger is actually pointing at? You can do it with これはダメ！ and これがダメ！ When you say これはダメ!, your finger is pointing at the fact that this is unacceptable. You're saying "Unacceptable!" But if you say これがダメ！！, your finger is pointing at the very thing that is unacceptable. You're not referring to the abstract thought that something is unacceptable. You're pointing at the concrete stuff right in front of you.

I do think the は/が difference is this "what are you focusing on?" thing. If the old-or-new rule governs the particles, how do you explain this? My finger moves a little bit differently. When I say これは..., my index finger may make a little circle or something. But my index finger will not move a bit when I say これが... unless これ is large or something because I'm looking at the very concrete stuff my finger is referring to.

magamo Wrote:Hmm... I'm not sure what "linguistically new information" means, but if that kind of thing can turn old info into a "new" thing, then that could be it.

It means something that is established in the discourse, either through directly stating it, or being general knowledge. It doesn't mean that the listener has never come across the information sometime in the past. Even if the information was in the same discourse, it is considered new information if the subject was changed since its introduction.

Quote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:Even if you switched it to ha, it would still be pointing at something that was previously said (suki).

If you say 可愛い男の子は好きなの？ in the situation, it sounds ridiculous. It's as if 可愛い男の子 has never been said before, i.e., the very new information... What do you think of this? If your rule is valid, it should sound like old info, shouldn't it? But it doesn't. Or is this "linguistically old information"? If that's the case, it's quite confusing if you ask me...

My point is that there is no new information anywhere, it is basically an exact repeat of the first speaker's sentence with a question mark at the end. Anyways, if ha was used in that sentence, it would be as if they had been talking about cute boys for awhile and then he said that he likes them (I don't think cute boys could qualify as general knowledge).

Quote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:Note that it could just as easily be "hon ga suki?" on the first line or "terebi ha suki" in a's second line.

No. If the first sentence of "a" was 本が好き?, then "b" could say something like "WTF makes you think I like reading books?!" or "Um, no. So, why did you ask the strange question that was emphasizing 本? Do I look like a nerd?" Also, there IS a difference in connotation/nuance between テレビが好き？ and テレビは好き？. The nuances are already said in my post.

It does affect the meaning of course, but it isn't unnatural depending on the circumstances of the conversation, such as if the first speaker expected the answer to be yes. I didn't mean to say that the particles could be changed without a corresponding change in meaning. I was simply saying that it would still be grammatical.

Quote:Seriously, whether a noun is common or not doesn't seem to be relevant. My mind doesn't work like that.

Grammar rarely comes into play in one's conscious mind during speech.

Example:
sora ha kirei.
-Simple statement that the sky is pretty. The sky is a common noun and so is already established in the discourse.

sora ga kirei.
-Answering the question "What is pretty?", or surprise at how pretty the sky is. If importance was the key, I would think that kirei would be emphasized by the surprise.

Quote:It becomes more apparent when you point your finger at something while saying "これはXXX" and "これがYYY." XXX and YYY can be anything. Can you feel what your finger is actually pointing at? You can do it with これはダメ！ and これがダメ！ When you say これはダメ!, your finger is pointing at the fact that this is unacceptable. You're saying "Unacceptable!" But if you say これがダメ！！, your finger is pointing at the very thing that is unacceptable. You're saying "This thing!!" I do think the は/が difference is this "what are you focusing on?" thing.

This also has an old/new explanation.
kore ha dame.
-Whatever kore refers to is established information. You are simply stating that it is bad. The listener already knows what "kore" is.

kore ga dame.
- You are pointing out what is bad. Kore is new information. You are explaining to the listener WHAT is bad, not the fact that it is bad.

Here is a linguistics paper which describes most of what I said.

@Jarvik7
I think you are talking about how one can explain this and that in the Japanese language. And I'm talking about what a native speaker is unconsciously feeling (Well... I know I'm saying something stupid. I mean what is flowing beneath the conscious mind or what native speakers are feeling when choosing one from the other). The former is good to analyze the language, and I do respect your view. It just it doesn't seem to be helping learners speak it.

This reminds me of this grammar rule about "the" vs. "a/an" I learned at school. They say if a noun is established/known/whatever, then you use "the." If it's new information, then you use "a/an." Of course, this could explain a lot of things. But I don't think it'd help Japanese students who are learning English. It'd be a lot easier if they said "You use 'the' when you're clearly picturing the noun in your mind. If it's kind of ambiguous/abstract, then you use 'a/an.'" Of course, you may need many example sentences to understand what kind of thing is considered ambiguous/abstract when it comes to "the vs. a/an." Certainly this rule has tons of exceptions such as idioms. But so does the conventional grammar rule. I think telling what is happening in native speakers' minds works better for people who want to speak the language.

Then again, I'm a beginner when it comes to English. So this "the" vs. "a/an" thing may be total nonsense. I'd like to know what linguistically intelligent native English speakers such as yourself think of this.

True, accurate descriptions of grammar are frequently not the kinds of explanations that help a beginner learn language due to their complexity and reliance on knowledge of other aspects of the language. That's why everything is heavily simplified in beginner texts. Getting a bit more linguistic can help a learner handle things which appear on the surface to be ambiguous though.

Anyways, take a look at the linguistics text I linked in the previous post. Maybe it explains it better than I. What a native feels and what the rule says should be the same, since the rules are created by studying how natives use language. I don't think I contradicted any of your sentence meaning interpretations, just the manner in which that meaning is derived (plus gave an example which contradicted your interpretation method). The text is a linguistics one with no intent of helping people learn Japanese, so there have been no simplifications to cloud meaning.

On the topic of English, I can't help you I know Japanese grammar on a way more technical level than I do English. Being a native can be a curse

I've never really thought about a/an vs 'the', but your explanation makes perfect sense (whereas the one you said your English teachers taught is more difficult to understand).

Which is why I like your explanation of は／が, its much easier to grasp than new vs old information- at least for me.

@Jarvik7
Thanks for the link. I'll definitely read it.

Jarvik7 Wrote:What a native feels and what the rule says should be the same, since the rules are created by studying how natives use language.

Hmm. I think "what" and "how" are two different things. I thought it was like describing accurate moves of a car in a video wouldn't be very helpful when you want to steer a car like that. It'd be better if instructors explain how the driver in the video is doing that. I guess that's the difference between linguistics and language learning. I agree accurate descriptions of how a language behaves is quite useful to advanced learners and near-native speakers such as yourself though. Native speakers should also find them helpful to polish their writing and speech.

Jarvik7 Wrote:On the topic of English, I can't help you I know Japanese grammar on a way more technical level than I do English. Being a native can be a curse

My knowledge of grammar is abysmal regardless of whether it's Japanese or English... Ugh! I failed my English class and had to take the same course the next year when I was a college student. Grammah!!

I'm always impressed with your deep knowledge of the Japanese language.

blackmacros Wrote:I've never really thought about a/an vs 'the', but your explanation makes perfect sense

Thanks! At least I'm not completely wrong, I guess.

Much earlier in this thread, as a joke, I was going to post a link to a serious book on は. Several hundred pages....about は!! 8 chapters of nothing but は!! But ...somehow it doesn't seem so funny anymore.

I noticed, however, that one chapter is about the results of a 'pragmatic' analysis of the use of は　and　が in conversation. A conclusion was that the traditional linguistic analysis of them was inadequate to explain the actual range of use in speech.

Now this was published 20 years ago. Yet apparently the は/が　debate continues unabated in linguistic circles. It's taught the same way, yet there's scholarship going deeper into it, farther out of it and way around it. We can't expect to get it sorted out here.

So... J and M are both right. =] 'New/old', 'contrasting' are terms heard in linguistics, but the concepts you are describing are not so different really. And as you say, these are generalizations that get us far enough to learn from exposure.

Personally, I disguise my ignorance by simply omitting them ... and claim that I'm speaking real, living, natural Japanese.

The paper I linked actually mentioned importance on the first page as an older explanation, but said it was inadequate to fully describe ha/ga.

I don't recall what the few beginner level textbooks I've perused (Genki, 日本語初歩) said about ha/ga, but "A Dictionary of ___ Grammar" agrees with the paper.

Both of the above explanations are way better than how my Korean teacher explained the equivalent in Korean: "topic and bigger topic". She was so incompetent at everything she did it was amazing. The computer that ran the digital projectors was even festering with viruses.

Yeah, but some people seem to lump emphasis/importance and new/old together as traditional approaches and contrast those with alternative conceptions. In that sense, they're similar. I guess I'm suggesting that there's no consensus, so no sense getting too entrenched.

btw: Does anyone else see those strange square symbols in Jarvik's posts?

Thora Wrote:btw: Does anyone else see those strange square symbols in Jarvik's posts?

Those are called 'kanji'.


No, uh, yeah, I see them too.

Weird, I see nothing. I blame the age-old anki bug for messing up my IME though. It trashes the IME in all webkit-using apps until I restart them. Usually triggered by entering Japanese in one of the text boxes and then changing focus to another gui widget without finalizing the JP input.

It probably ended up inserting some invisible unicode characters which Windows fonts don't have.

Thora Wrote:so no sense getting too entrenched.

...I'm improving my English this way. Hehe. Imagine you jump into English learners' forum and try to explain how to use "the" and "a/an" in Japanese. Native/near-native Japanese speakers reply to you in Japanese and elaborate their own ideas. You can steal a bunch of words, phrases, sentence structures and whatnot from them. Isn't it awesome?

Thora Wrote:btw: Does anyone else see those strange square symbols in Jarvik's posts?

I see the boxes, too. I'm on a mac if that makes a difference.

Weird, they don't appear in Firefox either. I think you all must just be on crack.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Weird, they don't appear in Firefox either. I think you all must just be on crack.

I'm using Firefox. I'll ctr+c&v your sentence here:

Jarvik7 Wrote:...meaning interpretations, just the manner...

What does this look like?

normal...

Looks normal on my ipod too.

I see them too. You think we should call an exorcist?

Opened this thread in Safari. No squares in his posts. The quote in my post doesn't have them either. Weird... I may be on drugs.

I see those squares everywhere, not just in this thread >_> They've haunted my computer for months now.

I see the boxes too (Firefox 3.0.10, Ubuntu 9.04)

I always thought of は as the topic marker. For example the thing you are going to talk about in the next sentence and so doesn't need to be said. Kind of like when people use pronouns in English instead of saying someones name over and over again. I've read that Japanese has a zero pronoun, so that is how I've been thinking about it. For example

Me:父は厳しいよ。毎日私に勉強される。
friend:そうか。びくっりした。いつも優しいと思ったんだから。

I though something like this would be fine because after the first time I talked about my father, my friend knew what I was talking about, so I didn't have to keep using my father again and again.

About the example with the TV and the book, I though of it was switching topics quickly and that は implied alternatives or maybe choices.

テレビは好き？
Do you like TV(or maybe you like something else. I'm interested in what it is you like).

本は好き？
Do you like books(Ok, forget about the TV, what about books, do you like those?)

本が好き？
Do you like books(I don't care if you lie anything else I just want to know if you like books)

Is there some flaw in my understanding or do I have something backwards. I'd also like to know more about how native speakers think when they hear these 2 particles.

PS. I see those squares in Jarvik7's posts too.

I was fiddling around with cleartype tuner and IME earlier, so I figured I must have screwed something up. phew. (but sorry that it's your problem Jarvik)