Z, if you have some kind of grammar reference, try looking up uses of の　and ～のです (or のだ、んです) instead of なの. Also, remember that だ　changes to な　when it comes before の. So if you see なの, it could be na-adj + の　or だ＋の.

In your 1st　example (静かなのが、アリスの部屋だ), の is sometimes called a pronominal の. It replaces a noun and means something like "one".
The quiet room is Alice's room → The quiet one is Alice's room.
　　　静かな　is a na-adjective: 静かな部屋　　→　静かなの
Note that if the noun is modified by another noun, as in 私の車, you would drop the second の.　(ie. not 私のの）　It's kinda the same in English:
the quiet room 　→ 　the quite one
　　　Alice's room →　　Alice's　(not Alice's one)

Your 2nd example　(ジムなのだ) is the explanatory のだ　pattern. If you haven't studied this yet, check out several example sentences with translations to get a feel for it. (There was a discussion a while back with examples. I think it was Vinniram's question.)

のです/のだ　is a predicate which is semantically somewhat similar to "it is that" or "the fact is that" in English. Its contracted form is んです/んだ.　When it's appended to the end of a statement, it doesn't change the basic meaning of it, but it contributes a sense of indirectness, politeness, explanation or emphasis. のだ　is usually preceded by informal form [(verb, i-adj, or noun な)] Again, if it's a noun (or na-adj), だ changes to な before のです/んです.
　　　ジムだ　→　ジムな＋のだ　→　ｼﾞﾑなのだ （→　ジムなんだ）
私の車です　→　私の車な＋のです　→　私の車なのです　（→　私の車なんです）
　　　静かだ　→　　静かな＋のだ　→　静かなのだ　（→　静かなんだ）
　　　
"Feminine copula' might refer to the female casual form of Nなのです　being Nなの, whereas the male casual form is Nなんだ. (ie. The original copula だbecomes な and the final だ　is dropped from のだ.) Perhaps women tend to use the　form more often to add a sense of indirectness/softness. (M/F differences are becoming less apparent among young people. This one too?)

There are related uses of の (as nominalizer, end question, etc), but I don't think you're looking for a complete list of uses of の. :-)

edit: []

Zarxrax Wrote:I am really REALLY confused about the grammar なの. [...]
これホントに朝顔なのかなー？
It's different, right?

I think of it as the same. I'll use a different example to avoid any embarrassing meanings ... ;-)

Formal: 　　　　　　　どうしてお酒を飲まないんですか？　　（DoBJG)
Informal (F): 　　　　どうしてお酒を飲まないの？

いいのかなあ, そんなことして. Is it really OK to do that? (dictionary)
君はどうしてそう思うのかな. Why do you think that, I wonder. "

These 2 examples have i-adjの　and Vの. Your example has Nなの.
かなあ　makes it a question to self or a softened question. In all examples, the speaker is asking for more information about something that is known or common to both parties. This is one use of のです.

Ok, I think its getting a lot more clearer now, thanks.

Okay, so this is a sentence I'm having trouble with...

ちじめて「ポケモン」と呼ばれる不思議な生き物がいたるところにいるの！

(Yeah, it's from Pokemon. Sorry 'bout that.)

So roughly... "chijimu" is shrink/contract and I'm not sure how it modifies the rest of the sentence. Is it talking about the word "pokemon" from "poketto monsta-"? The previous sentence talks about how "this world is where pokemon monsta- are".

I roughly get the rest of the sentence - the mystery of how the animals/living things arrive/are living at the place (please correct me if I'm wrong).

So...if it's what I think it may be, it's roughly "Called for short Pokemon, it's a mystery how these animals arrived to live at the place."

Corrects/help please? =)

'These strange creatures, called "Pokemon" for short, are everywhere!'
as far as I can tell.

ちじめて「ポケモン」と呼ばれる - "called 'Pokemon' for short"
不思議な生き物が - 'strange creatures'
いたるところに - 'anywhere and everywhere'
いるの！ - 'exist'

Asriel Wrote:'These strange creatures, called "Pokemon" for short, are everywhere!'
as far as I can tell.

ちじめて「ポケモン」と呼ばれる - "called 'Pokemon' for short"
不思議な生き物が - 'strange creatures'
いたるところに - 'anywhere and everywhere'
いるの！ - 'exist'

Thank you. =) I'm still slow at parsing sentences together.

Edit: So...another question, if anyone's up for it. This one I'd just like to make sure I broke it down right.

不思議な力を秘めているポケモンは姿かたちも暮らしている場所もさまざま。

Approximately translates to "the pokemon that hide strange powers have many appearances and live in many different places."? I could be completely off, but I /think/ I have it.

...hopefully.

Yeah, that's more or less right. I would rather phrase it as "Pokemon, which hide strange powers..."

http://www.jpopasia.com/play/28333/stere...drive.html

There is a few things I don't get in this song and its translation doesn't look right to me at times. I know some things might need more context so please look into lyrics on that page. I don't want to quote everything here.

過去の忘れ物風に乗せ - is this a form of 乗せる, if so what kind? JDIC doesn't list it in its basic conjugation list

近づく時はもうそこまで - translated as "Until that time, I'll stay close to you", I'd loosely translate it as "We'll be close soon" ie. treat そこまで as 'go that far; to that extent' rather than separate it into そこ & まで

足りないものは見つければいいのさ - what is this のさ? can't find it online together other than in のさばる so I'm guessing its の + さ in which case I don't understand both. さ shows up often at the end of a sentence and I never know what to think of it. 羽ばたくのさ is another example in the same song.

走り抜けよう 振り返っちゃダメ - I noticed V+っちゃ/ちゃ is used by women but what kind of feeling does it convey?

それだけじゃなくて、鉛筆を使い過ぎないで、紙を大切にして、もっと残業をして、字をきれいに書いてとか、もう、嫌になるくらいなんです。

This sentence is confusing me quite a bit. Context: a new employee is complaining about his boss. The immediately preceding sentence is: "たった１分遅れただけで15分ぐらい文句を言うんですよ。"

Questions:
Firstly, does "使い過ぎない" mean "doesn't use excessively/too much" or does it mean "uses too little"? The latter I would assume is "使わなさ過ぎる", so would I be right in assuming it means "doesn't use excessively/too much"?

Secondly, "じゃなくて" is just a te-form of "じゃない" (the other one being "じゃないで"), right? Just wanted to double check this one.

Thirdly, what does "とか" mean in this instance? Is it the inexhaustive listing usage, but instead of listing nouns, it's listing te-clauses? But then doesn't it have to appear at the end of each listed item, not just the last?

Fourthly, what does "くらい" at the end mean? Is it the same as "くらい"/"ぐらい" meaning "approximately, around about"? I have a feeling it's a different usage entirely, in this case.

So, the translation I can get out so far is:

"It's not just that. He doesn't use pencils too much, and he does papers with great caution, he does more overtime work, he writes his characters neatly, etc., so already, I'm becoming a bit fed up."

If someone can correct my translation and help me with the above questions, I will appreciate it.

vinniram Wrote:それだけじゃなくて、鉛筆を使い過ぎないで、紙を大切にして、もっと残業をして、字をきれいに書いてとか、もう、嫌になるくらいなんです。

Thirdly, what does "とか" mean in this instance? Is it the inexhaustive listing usage, but instead of listing nouns, it's listing te-clauses? But then doesn't it have to appear at the end of each listed item, not just the last?

No, it can just appear at the end. These "-te clauses" are the 文句 of the boss mentinoed in the previous sentence, so they're all commands of the boss, so your translation should take that into account.

Quote:Fourthly, what does "くらい" at the end mean? Is it the same as "くらい"/"ぐらい" meaning "approximately, around about"? I have a feeling it's a different usage entirely, in this case.

It means something like "to the extent that I am getting sick of it", or just "It's annoying me."

thurd:

Quote:走り抜けよう 振り返っちゃダメ - I noticed V+っちゃ/ちゃ is used by women but what kind of feeling does it convey?

It's not a feminine thing; ちゃだめ is a spoken contraction of てはだめ, which means "You can't do X" or "Don't do X" (i.e. lack of permission, not lack of ability)

thurd Wrote:過去の忘れ物風に乗せ - is this a form of 乗せる, if so what kind? JDIC doesn't list it in its basic conjugation list

If I remember correctly, some textbooks call it te-form. The exact same form is used in the first line of the lyrics:

窓を開けて部屋に流れ込む
青い風
体全部で受け止めたくて

If it were written in typical textbook grammar, it'd be like:
窓を開けて部屋に流れ込む青い風を体全部で受け止めたくて (another verb omitted).

This te version of a verb is used when there are a sequence of actions related in some way. In this line, the sequence is: Open the window (窓を開けて) -> want to feel the breeze (受け止めたくて) -> (Not specified). A typical and most simple usage is AしてBする, which usually means you do A first and then B. How the sequence of actions are related isn't explicitly stated in many cases and can be ambiguous without context.

This て can be omitted so it reads AしBする. The modified first line of the lyrics can be 窓を開け部屋に流れ込む青い風を体全部で受け止めたく (another verb omitted).

There isn't a big difference in meaning between the original te-verb version and the omitted version. You'll find the te-less version more often in writing. It can sound a little too stiff or pretentious if you use the te-less version too often in informal conversation, but I wouldn't say it's definitely formal language. Lyrics are also good examples where you can often find the te-less grammar. But this may be partly because of the restriction on the number of moras/syllables or rhythm rather than the slight difference in nuance.

Another example of the same te-form in the lyrics is させて in 今オーバードライブさせて羽ばたくのさ. So 今オーバードライブさせ羽ばたくのさ would carry pretty much the same meaning. The latter may sound more typical in lyrics.

thurd Wrote:近づく時はもうそこまで - translated as "Until that time, I'll stay close to you", I'd loosely translate it as "We'll be close soon" ie. treat そこまで as 'go that far; to that extent' rather than separate it into そこ & まで

I can't tell exactly what she means here. But when I heard もうそこまで, I thought it was more like "Look! We're coming close to (something she implied)," i.e., もうそこまで here is the same as in ほら、夏はもうそこまで来てる. (Look! Summer is coming around the corner!)

thurd Wrote:足りないものは見つければいいのさ - what is this のさ? can't find it online together other than in のさばる so I'm guessing its の + さ in which case I don't understand both. さ shows up often at the end of a sentence and I never know what to think of it. 羽ばたくのさ is another example in the same song.

If your dictionary/textbook explains よ at the end of a sentence as a particle used by women, this is its male equivalent. It's used where だ would work just fine as the sentence ending.

Both よ and さ of this sense are rare in real conversation, especially when these particles can make sentences sound definitely masculine or feminine. Mostly they appear in novels to mark the speaker's sex, scripted speech, lyrics for an effect etc. It can be ridiculous to use さ in real life. A lame attempt to fake sex on the internet typically overuses よ when real girls wouldn't say it, which is a dead giveaway.

This kind of さ (and よ) has a lighter feeling than だ. So, 見つければいいのさ is more like 見つけりゃいいじゃん or 見つければいいんだって than 見つければいいのだ.

On a side note, 足りないものは見つければいいのだ can also sound like a line taken from a scripted dialog or written language, thought to a much lesser extent than さ.

thurd Wrote:走り抜けよう 振り返っちゃダメ - I noticed V+っちゃ/ちゃ is used by women but what kind of feeling does it convey?

It's colloquial but not particularly feminine. It can be used by either male or female speaker of any age. Maybe you could say colloquial grammar is more frequently used by kids and teenagers. But I kind of feel like it's just more natural than ては in smooth informal speech. You don't use it in formal speech. It doesn't go well with very polite language and honorifics-filled language either.

vinniram Wrote:それだけじゃなくて、鉛筆を使い過ぎないで、紙を大切にして、もっと残業をして、字をきれいに書いてとか、もう、嫌になるくらいなんです。

This sentence is confusing me quite a bit. Context: a new employee is complaining about his boss. The immediately preceding sentence is: "たった１分遅れただけで15分ぐらい文句を言うんですよ。"

Questions:
Firstly, does "使い過ぎない" mean "doesn't use excessively/too much" or does it mean "uses too little"? The latter I would assume is "使わなさ過ぎる", so would I be right in assuming it means "doesn't use excessively/too much"?

Secondly, "じゃなくて" is just a te-form of "じゃない" (the other one being "じゃないで"), right? Just wanted to double check this one.

Thirdly, what does "とか" mean in this instance? Is it the inexhaustive listing usage, but instead of listing nouns, it's listing te-clauses? But then doesn't it have to appear at the end of each listed item, not just the last?

Just gonna touch on these because they weren't address directly

You're right about that 使い過ぎない thing--it means 'not using too much'. But, of course, as was pointed out, it's a request of the boss--"Don't use pencils too much."

じゃなくて is just じゃない in て form, like you thought. It sets it up so you can continue the sentence. "It's not just that, ..."

とか is the inexhaustive listing usage, but it's listing quotes of the boss, and quotes are basically treated like nouns.

vinniram Wrote:Firstly, does "使い過ぎない" mean "doesn't use excessively/too much"

Yes.

vinniram Wrote:Secondly, "じゃなくて" is just a te-form of "じゃない" (the other one being "じゃないで"), right? Just wanted to double check this one.

Yes.

vinniram Wrote:Thirdly, what does "とか" mean in this instance? Is it the inexhaustive listing usage, but instead of listing nouns, it's listing te-clauses? But then doesn't it have to appear at the end of each listed item, not just the last?

Yudantaiteki explained this well. It's listing quoted sentences, and it may appear only at the end of the list.

vinniram Wrote:Fourthly, what does "くらい" at the end mean? Is it the same as "くらい"/"ぐらい" meaning "approximately, around about"? I have a feeling it's a different usage entirely, in this case.

Sort of. If I were asked to define it in one simple English word or phrase, the meaning is kind of like "almost" or "to the extent." It's just translation doesn't work. I vaguely remember someone asked the same thing on this forum. Maybe it was in this thread. But I'm too lazy to google it.

So its translation is like:

And it's not just that! He goes, "Don't use too many pencils," "Why don't you save paper?" "Work overtime more", "You ever heard of penmanship? Learn calligraphy already," and... Grrrrrrrrrrrrr, he doesn't stop complaining for, like, 15 minutes when I'm late one minute!

Edit: Ah, I didn't notice Tzadeck's post...

Ah, I understand this sentence well now. Thank you all for your detailed replies.

magamo Wrote:This て can be omitted so it reads AしBする. The modified first line of the lyrics can be 窓を開け部屋に流れ込む青い風を体全部で受け止めたく (another verb omitted).

There isn't a big difference in meaning between the original te-verb version and the omitted version. You'll find the te-less version more often in writing. It can sound a little too stiff or pretentious if you use the te-less version too often in informal conversation, but I wouldn't say it's definitely formal language. Lyrics are also good examples where you can often find the te-less grammar. But this may be partly because of the restriction on the number of moras/syllables or rhythm rather than the slight difference in nuance.

Another example of the same te-form in the lyrics is させて in 今オーバードライブさせて羽ばたくのさ. So 今オーバードライブさせ羽ばたくのさ would carry pretty much the same meaning. The latter may sound more typical in lyrics.

So its official, て form is Satan. Not only I have to worry about what it means in different grammar patterns, learn to conjugate every verb into て form and now there's て form without て??

Seriously this is the first time I've heard of it, I must have seen it before but figured it was "some weird verb/conjugation I don't know".

Thanks for all your answers.

thurd Wrote:

magamo Wrote:This て can be omitted so it reads AしBする. The modified first line of the lyrics can be 窓を開け部屋に流れ込む青い風を体全部で受け止めたく (another verb omitted).

There isn't a big difference in meaning between the original te-verb version and the omitted version. You'll find the te-less version more often in writing. It can sound a little too stiff or pretentious if you use the te-less version too often in informal conversation, but I wouldn't say it's definitely formal language. Lyrics are also good examples where you can often find the te-less grammar. But this may be partly because of the restriction on the number of moras/syllables or rhythm rather than the slight difference in nuance.

Another example of the same te-form in the lyrics is させて in 今オーバードライブさせて羽ばたくのさ. So 今オーバードライブさせ羽ばたくのさ would carry pretty much the same meaning. The latter may sound more typical in lyrics.

So its official, て form is Satan. Not only I have to worry about what it means in different grammar patterns, learn to conjugate every verb into て form and now there's て form without て??

Seriously this is the first time I've heard of it, I must have seen it before but figured it was "some weird verb/conjugation I don't know".

Thanks for all your answers.

As far as i know, for verbs it's not て form without the て, it's the ます stem, isn't it? For 一段 verbs, す五段 verbs and する that amounts to the same thing (ie して becomes し, させて becomes させ). But you use 行き not 行っ instead of 行って, right? For い adjectives (including ない), it is the て form minus the て, ie. replace くて with く. Eg. じゃなくて　→　じゃなく.

It's a super common style in written technical japanese (to the point where i pretty much never see て form used in those documents).

zigmonty Wrote:As far as i know, for verbs it's not て form without the て, it's the ます stem, isn't it? For 一段 verbs, す五段 verbs and する that amounts to the same thing (ie して becomes し, させて becomes させ). But you use 行き not 行っ instead of 行って, right? For い adjectives (including ない), it is the て form minus the て, ie. replace くて with く. Eg. じゃなくて　→　じゃなく.

It's a super common style in written technical japanese (to the point where i pretty much never see て form used in those documents).

Technically it's 連用形, which roughly corresponds to the te-form in the Japanese-as-a-foreign-language grammar you can find in textbooks for nonnative speakers. It looks way simpler if you see it as masu-form though because that way you don't need to learn classical Japanese or full-fledged modern Japanese grammar. If you're interested, you can find more detailed explanations in this post and the following discussion in this thread.

If you need even more detailed explanations, you might want to look up 連用中止 in the Japanese linguistics literature.

thurd Wrote:So its official, て form is Satan. Not only I have to worry about what it means in different grammar patterns, learn to conjugate every verb into て form and now there's て form without て??

This is yet another case where people trying to make things simpler end up making them more complex. There are six verbal forms: imperfective 未然形, continuative 連用形, conclusive 終止形, attributive 連体形, conditional 仮定形 and imperative 命令形. Anything else is just a combination of one of these verbal forms plus an auxiliary verb, particle, etc.

・ 書きます → 連用形 of 書く + auxiliary verb ます
・ 書きました → 連用形 of 書く + 連用形 of ます + auxiliary verb た
・ 書けば → 仮定形 of 書く + particle ば
・ 書かせる → 未然形 of 書く + auxiliary verb せる

So you only have to learn these six forms, and what form goes with what auxiliary verb. There's also an easily predictable phenomenon called 音便 that you should be aware of. It causes changes like these: (note that it's not exclusive of て)

・ 書きて (連用形 of 書く + て) → 書いて
・ 読みだ (連用形 of 読む + だ) → 読んだ
・ 言いたり (連用形 of 言う + たり) → 言ったり

Ok, that's all well and good, I've got no problem with seeing japanese grammar as containing 6 basic conjugations and seeing everything else as an auxiliary. I know "ます stem" is a lame beginner textbook name for it, as it has far more uses than that. I think as you get deeper into the language, you more or less naturally evolve into realizing that what you're calling 連用形 is the true end of the verb in these constructions and stuff like ます, たい, ながら etc are attaching to that. Seeing them all as conjugations in their own right, some of which changed the class of the word (from verb to i adjective, for example), is a fairly batty way to approach the language.

I just meant that saying it's て form (using a beginner textbook name) without the て is going to lead a lot of beginners to the wrong conclusions. て form is described in beginner texts (at least in the ones i've seen) as it's own conjugation with endings って, んで, etc. rather than the 2 step process involving 音便.

I kinda wish i'd been taught the true grammar from the start rather than the ham-fisted lets-treat-everything-as-its-own-pattern way. Their way requires far more learning of patterns, but each pattern is easier to approach as you don't have to apply multiple grammatical rules to come up with each construction. I guess they believe that makes it easier to learn. Teaching stuff like 連用形 and 未然形 before people can even introduce themselves is probably going to intimidate a lot of people. As a programer though, i kinda wish someone had just given me the A4 cheat sheet formal grammar of japanese.

Of course, that "6 part conjugation" idea is a holdover from the 18th century 国学者 and isn't necessarily sacrosanct. It didn't work all that great for classical Japanese and sound changes have made it work even less well for modern Japanese (the terms, in particular, are not very good). You do need to have some acquaintance with the terms if you're going to be using Japanese-language grammar resources, but it's not that necessary for beginners. Very few English-language resources use it, so I think it would tend to complicate things for beginners to try to learn it.

(JSL's pedagogical grammar is able to describe everything in terms of two verbal forms -- a "root" and a "stem". To do this, though, you have to use romaji. But tethering the grammar to written kana symbols is what messed the 国学者 up anyway.)

yudantaiteki Wrote:(JSL's pedagogical grammar is able to describe everything in terms of two verbal forms -- a "root" and a "stem". To do this, though, you have to use romaji. But tethering the grammar to written kana symbols is what messed the 国学者 up anyway.)

That's the stuff like かく being kak + u right, where kak is the root and it's the stuff after that that conjugates? It fairly neatly explains the difference between 一段 and 五段 verbs too.

julianjalapeno Wrote:Something comes after ように, maybe 勉強した because it would then be something like `Because I studied like my teacher told me to, I got good grades last semester.`

Sorry for the late reply. Wow, I miss stuff easily don't I? I was expecting the I definitely need more grammar practice. That clears it up perfectly though. Thanks.

何やってんだ
I hear this phrase all the time and I keep trying to look it up, but can't find anything. I know what it means, but can anyone explain it? I don't understand the やってん part.

kudokupo Wrote:何やってんだ
I hear this phrase all the time and I keep trying to look it up, but can't find anything. I know what it means, but can anyone explain it? I don't understand the やってん part.

何やってんだ translates to "What are you doing?" and depending on the tone of voice and context, it can be taken as the more harsh "What the hell are you doing?"

It's very informal and seems to be mostly used amongst friends. やってんだ is the shortened version of "やってるんだ” which is an even shorter version of "やってるのだ”

When do you read "後" as "あと" and when do you use "のち"? Is のち　just a more formal version of あと　or is there also a difference in usage?