茶　

has RikaiChan listings of "Brown" and "Mockery" as possible definitions.

How could one use 茶 in such ways?

お願い致します

magamo Wrote:@Akira117
If you're referring to the spreadsheet, it seems to be a typo. The は should be が so the reading of the second sentence is "ジムががくせい."

Cheers!

TheTrueBlue Wrote:茶　

has RikaiChan listings of "Brown" and "Mockery" as possible definitions.

How could one use 茶 in such ways?

お願い致します

You can find the color 茶色 in this article on ja.Wikipedia.

As for mockery, there are some phrases that contain 茶 and have mockery senses. For example, 茶化す (ちゃかす) means "laugh off," "make fun of," "pull off someone's leg," etc. 茶々を入れる (ちゃちゃをいれる) is a similar phrase and more like "interrupt a serious conversation by a silly joke." These phrases are usually used when you think it's frivolous and inappropriate.

大上段に構えてやるもんじゃねーんだよ

This phrase was in one of Khatzumoto's tweets, and the full sentence was:

大上段に構えてやるもんじゃねーんだよ修行なんて小さなことでもいい

However, I pretty much understand the second half. Based on rikaichan 大上段 means "raising a sword above one's head (to slay); haughty attitude" while 構えて has a number of different meanings. Basically, I can't really grasp what's trying to be said here or it could just be an idiomatic expression.

大上段に構える means to hold (a sword) above your head.
The gist of what I think he's trying to say is
"You shouldn't necessarily try to go in for the kill. Practicing and other small things are fine as well."

Hi everyone!

Why do the Japanese translate 温泉 to "hot spring"? I mean there's no argueing that the water is hot, but doesn't 温 mean (apart from "temperature") "warm" as in "mildly-cosy-warm"? For example,
温い(ぬるい) = lukewarm
温かい(あたたかい) = warm; mild
温暖(おんだん) = warmth
(...)

and finally,

温帯(おんたい) = temperate zone
熱帯(ねったい) = tropics
...kind of indicates that 熱 is generally hotter than 温, right? And how does 暖 fit in?

rayne Wrote:大上段に構えてやるもんじゃねーんだよ

This phrase was in one of Khatzumoto's tweets, and the full sentence was:

大上段に構えてやるもんじゃねーんだよ修行なんて小さなことでもいい

However, I pretty much understand the second half. Based on rikaichan 大上段 means "raising a sword above one's head (to slay); haughty attitude" while 構えて has a number of different meanings. Basically, I can't really grasp what's trying to be said here or it could just be an idiomatic expression.

構え in this sentence refers to a "posture" or "position" in kendo, and 上段 is one of the various postures. As far as I know, 上段の構え is a very aggressive posture and you take the position when you're offensive and focusing more on attack than on defense. These words are being used figuratively here and 大 is emphasizing the offensive style.

So its meaning is something like "It's not like you have to threaten anyone," and if I were a translator, I might translate the two sentences as "Take it easy; it's just practice."

timewastin Wrote:Why do the Japanese translate 温泉 to "hot spring"?

Take a bath in a Japanese hot spring. If you had been taking a bath in the Japanese style since childhood, you'd say it's not very hot. But water at 45+ degrees Celsius is hotter than boiling water for your average Westerner. You just can't understand why a Japanese 70 years old guy is complaining that it's "lukewarm" when you can't take it even for a second.

As for 暖, you don't use it for liquid.

magamo Wrote:Take a bath in a Japanese hot spring. If you had been taking a bath in the Japanese style since childhood, you'd say it's not very hot. But water at 45+ degrees Celsius is hotter than boiling water for your average Westerner. You just can't understand why a Japanese 70 years old guy is complaining that it's "lukewarm" when you can't take it even for a second.

Thank you, I'm not sure, but I think I understand
So when the Japanese say 温, they actually think "lukewarm", right? And we westerners have always called those things "hot spring" (no matter if they are in Japan or Iceland). So what the Japanese think of as a "warm spring" is equivalent to what we consider a "hot spring", right?

timewastin Wrote:Thank you, I'm not sure, but I think I understand
So when the Japanese say 温, they actually think "lukewarm", right? And we westerners have always called those things "hot spring" (no matter if they are in Japan or Iceland). So what the Japanese think of as a "warm spring" is equivalent to what we consider a "hot spring", right?

Sort of yes. It's like a person living in Greenland and a person from a desert perceive the same temperature differently.

But when it comes to a temperature of water, there is another complicated reason for this; hot water isn't 水 (みず, water) anymore in Japanese. It's called お湯 (おゆ, hot water) and regarded as a different thing. Probably this doesn't make sense to you, but hot water and cold water are totally different things in Japanese, and hence describing their temperature by English words is quite difficult. Actually "hot 水" sounds very strange to the Japanese people, though we can understand what you're talking about.

It's like "ice" and "water" are different in English. "Cold"s in "cold water" and "cold ice" are referring to totally different degrees, right? Since 水 can be hot in English, English speaking people tend to use hot when it's just "warm" お湯. Does this make sense?

So I think your confusion stems from the unique bathing culture and the way the Japanese language sees the world.

As for the meanings of 温 and 暖, translation fails so hard. They share meanings with a lot of English words and none of them is close to them. Actually, the way the Japanese people classify "temperature" is different from yours.

温 refers to a temperature that you feel as part of something while you feel 暖 as a whole. I know this doesn't make any sense to you because English speaking cultures don't differentiate the two, but there is a difference. In general, if you touch an object to feel its temperature/heat, most likely you use 温. If it's something to do with an air temperature, most of the time it's 暖.

For example, you can't use 暖 for liquid because in the Japanese culture you don't see liquid as atmospheric. The air temperature of your room can be described by 暖. If you use 温 when you're talking about gas, you're probably considering it to be stuff, i.e., you're not talking about an aspect of the world you're in. So 暖かい風 and 温かい風 give different impressions; the former is a warm breeze while the latter sounds like warm gas emitted by a machine or something. You feel 暖かい風 on a fine summer day, and you feel 温かい風 when you're sitting next to a huge network server.

Can anyone help me with this? I get the gist. However, I'm not sure if I understand it correctly.

後輩で敬語を余り使わないような人でも，先輩のおかげだという気持ちがあるときには「させてください」のような謙譲語も必要だと言っていた

A person who doesn't use honorific-speech with a junior(classmate) very often,
but, when feeling grateful to senior(classmate), something like "allowed to do" in humble-language should necessarily be said.

I'm mostly interested in this section
先輩のおかげだという気持ちがあるときには「させてください」のような謙譲語も必要だと言っていた

How 「させてください」 is connected to も. Is も used as the 'utmost' or 'also' in this context.

is the meaning
「させてください」 should also be humble
or
「させてください」 is the 'limit' of how humble it should be

It should be easier than I'm making it sound, something about the sentence structure is throwing me off.

@oregum

も in the example sentence is not "also" or anything. The word has tons of meanings, and the sentence is a good example of one of the non-also meanings of も. In this case, it's implying that the speaker thinks that usually the statement is false/wrong/doesn't hold but in certain cases he can agree that it is true. Also this emphasizes the fact that the statement can be true.

For example, 彼女みたいな可愛い子も振られることがあるんだ。is literally "A cute girl like her can also be dumped," but its actual sense is "I never thought anyone could dump a cute girl like her. But holy shit, she WAS dumped."

So the sentence in question roughly means "I know this person who doesn't bother to use honorifics to older guys including me, and even he said everyone should use humble forms like "sasete kudasai" if they are grateful."

先輩のおかげだという気持ちがあるときには「させてください」のような謙譲語も必要だ is what 後輩 was saying (i.e., a reported clause). 後輩 doesn't think the humble form should always be used when talking with older people, but も is emphasizing that he thinks humble forms like "させてください" is sometimes necessary, especially when the speaker is grateful to the listener for some reason.

Thanks for the info.

I realize も doesn't directly mean 'also', but to me it has the nuance/sense of 'also'.

彼女みたいな可愛い子も振られることがあるんだ
= A cute girl like her can 'also' be dumped
= ...... 'even' she can be dumped

Even though 'even' and 'also' are not the same, the 'nuance' is the same. I think of it like, in Japanese the word which means 'also' can be used in this manner. It's hard to explain, I understand how it is used, and it works in my mind.

Anyways, thanks for your help. I figured out why it confused me.

oregum Wrote:Thanks for the info.

I realize も doesn't directly mean 'also', but to me it has the nuance/sense of 'also'.

彼女みたいな可愛い子も振られることがあるんだ
= A cute girl like her can 'also' be dumped
= ...... 'even' she can be dumped

Even though 'even' and 'also' are not the same, the 'nuance' is the same. I think of it like, in Japanese the word which means 'also' can be used in this manner. It's hard to explain, I understand how it is used, and it works in my mind.

Anyways, thanks for your help. I figured out why it confused me.

Ah, I shouldn't have given an example that can be explained by "even." Actually "even" in my terrible translation "...even he said..." of the sentence in question is not corresponding to the も you're asking. I think it came from でも in "...ような人でも、" Sorry for giving you a confusing example. Here is the same も:

冗談もいい加減にしろ！(Give me a break!)

The sense is "I don't think you should always be serious, but this time you should get real. And I do think you should." I don't think this も can be explained by "even" or "also," but this is the same も as the one you asked.

The point is the speaker means "I don't think this statement is always true, but if/when XXX, then it's true. And I do think it's true if/when XXX." If the condition XXX is happening/already happened, then the speaker may be expressing a strong emotion (because of "I do think..." part) such as surprise, anger, etc. If the condition is hypothetical, the sentence is probably emphasizing the fact that the statement is true if the condition holds.

The condition XXX is "if you're grateful" in your example, "if you look at her (as an example of such a cute girl)" in the example in my last post, and "when we should be serious, when we're in a hurry, when I'm angry, etc. (it all depends on context)" in 冗談もいい加減にしろ！(Give me a break!) respectively.

Anyway, if it's confusing, listening and reading will take care of this kind of thing, I think.

I actually always thought of that as a pretty standard 'also' meaning, in that you're saying you ALSO think they should get real (sometimes, like now), though they should also at other times maybe not. I think similarly of the first sentence given.

I mean, I'd never put it in an English translation - even the way I explained it was really rocky. But I've always thought of pretty much every use of も having a shade of 'also' to it.

But that may just be that I usually try to consolidate functions in my head. I think of most particles as having essentially one or at the most two uses, they're just very... wide.

I (believe) I understand what you are saying. Still, I prefer my original understanding. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

今行ってもいい

Technically, there is no way that も means 'also' in this example, but in my mind it does. Maybe its because I avoid translating Japanese.

translation: now you can go (having satisfied condition x or somin)
in my mind: going now is 'also' ok (having satisfied condition x or somin)

談もいい加減にしろ
translation: 'cut that out'
in my mind: 'joking also good, stop doing it' or 'even joking good, stop doing it'

For some reason I think that in Japanese も does not mean 'also' it simply functions like 'also' in English. I don't think three are any examples where this is any different. Maybe I'll know better when I growd up.

Thanx for the help.

I think you might be confusing the もいい of 言ってもいい with the も＋いい of 冗談もいい加減にして (this word is いい加減 as a whole).

Unless I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I meant it like:
今行っても間に合わない (ie. train)

Correct me if I'm wrong, cuz I make lots of mistakes

Yeah, the も in question is really hard to explain by translation. If you can understand it without English, then it should be closer to the actual sense than my crappy explanation.

Grammatically the もs in the 謙譲語も-sentence, 可愛い子も-sentence, and 冗談も-sentence are the same, but I feel the second example has kind of a "also" sense as oregum says while the third one has no "also" feel at all to me. The first one isn't as also-less as the third one, but definitely not as also-ish as the second one. Maybe the degree of also-ness of も's usage in question depends on the semantics of a sentence.

If 冗談もいい加減にしろ had an "also" sense, it should be something like "Stop doing something. Also, stop being ridiculous" because も is grammatically applying to 冗談 (being ridiculous). Because my mind doesn't take the sentence that way, it doesn't have also-ness (at least to me, though).

Here are other usages of も which I personally don't think are directly related to "also":

このことは誰も知らない。No one knows this. (Hmm... Not any person knows this either...?? Is this even English?)

探したけど一つも見つからない。 I looked for them, to no avail. (Possibly, if you look at it as "None of them has been found," you might sense certain "also"?)

ここには1,000人も人がいる。Surprisingly, there are 1,000 people in here. (Can't come up with an also-ish explanation.)

3回も連続で失敗しちゃった。I failed it three times in a row.

お前もなかなかやるな。You're pretty smart, huh? (This is implying you are as good as someone else in some sense, so maybe there is a shade of "also.")

私の父は来年100歳にもなる。My farther will be as old as 100 next year.

etc. etc.

oregum Wrote:Unless I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I meant it like:
今行っても間に合わない (ie. train)

Correct me if I'm wrong, cuz I make lots of mistakes

When you mention things like 'going is okay' and 'joking is good', I thought you might be taking it as the regular いい, but it could just have been my misreading it and making an unsubstantial comment.

oregum Wrote:冗談もいい加減にしろ
translation: 'cut that out'
in my mind: 'joking also good, stop doing it' or 'even joking good, stop doing it'

To me, this understanding of も corresponds with this も: 冗談もいいけど、ほどほどにしておけ。, which means "Joking is all well and good, but there is a limit to everything."

Edit: So if you think it has a shade of "also" and still can understand the meaning correctly, then there shouldn't be a problem at all. It seems that the cause of confusion is translation and difference in grammar between Japanese and English.

magamo Wrote:@Akira117
If you're referring to the spreadsheet, it seems to be a typo. The は should be が so the reading of the second sentence is "ジムががくせい."

Found another one, which one is right?

Q: ジムが遊ぶ。
A: ジムはあそぶ。
T: Jim is the one that plays.

It seem like が would be right again, but I am a noob at this.

Akira117 Wrote:

magamo Wrote:@Akira117
If you're referring to the spreadsheet, it seems to be a typo. The は should be が so the reading of the second sentence is "ジムががくせい."

Found another one, which one is right?

Q: ジムが遊ぶ。
A: ジムはあそぶ。
T: Jim is the one that plays.

It seem like が would be right again, but I am a noob at this.

If the translation is correct, it's が according to Tae Kim's explanation.

Thanks magamoさん。

What does it mean when the 鈴ね at the 神社 falls down while people are making their 正月 wishes? Does it mean the wish they made is too unreasonable? Or is it only an omen that their wish simply won't come true?

magamo Wrote:To me, this understanding of も corresponds with this も: 冗談もいいけど、ほどほどにしておけ。, which means "Joking is all well and good, but there is a limit to everything."

Like I said, I avoid translating altogether. To me the Japanese particle も simply functions like that. At the same time, it functions the way the English 'also' does other situation.

ｘｙｚもいい＝that's enough
I don't translate it, and it makes sense to me.

albion Wrote:When you mention things like 'going is okay' and 'joking is good', I thought you might be taking it as the regular いい, but it could just have been my misreading it and making an unsubstantial comment.

Am I wrong that the いい you talk about is 良い?
Then, isn't じょうだんもいい　＝　冗談も良い？
Because I thought that いいかげん　＝　良い加減。

Is the 司どる in the sentence a misspelling/alt. spelling of 司る　(つかさどる）？

Does the sentence mean something like "they are the administers of the bade of courage?"