[Katsuo]

From DAJG pgs. 128-131:

いかんとも is equivalent to どのようにも "in whatever way".

いかんともしがたい means "cannot do anything" (lit, in whatever way we do it, it's difficult).

Hello,
Soon I have exams here in Osaka University (I am in the undergraduate Monbukagakusho program, learning Japanese right now), and they expect us to be able to read an academic text of Physics in Japanese (with only 4 months here). I finally finished RTK1 (thank god for the vacations), and I started trying to tackle the book, but there are some expressions I found difficult to understand. Ideally, I'd get to tackle more basic material before getting to this, as many forms I'm not familiar with are being used. Still, I can do nothing about it other than ask here for an explanation if I want to pass the exams. Just for clarifications, I am going through the book, using Jim Breen's words translator, and trying to make sense of the sentence, and then input it into my SRS. So here I got a few questions:

そのような質点系一般に対して成り立ついくつの重要な事項を学ぶ。
I am finding trouble understanding the part 一般に対して成り立つ. What is its role in the sentence? I get the idea, that we'll learn important concepts regarding system of particles, but I cannot feel ok without understanding the whole thing.

Oh well, that's it for now. Thank you very much.

I saw this the other day :わざわざっていうような友達

and after I looked up わざわざ I was even more confused. Can someone help me out?

I'm interested in those two sentences from KO2001:

娘が結婚する。相手は２つ年下だ。　
My daughter is getting married.　Her fiance (lit. partner) is 2 years older than her.
NTTは来月から電話料金を約10％値下げする。　
NTT (Nippon Telegraph and Telephone) are raising their telephone charges by 10% from next month.

How come the fiance is older when it is written 年下, and how come NTT are raising charges when it is written 値下げ?

Rael89 Wrote:I saw this the other day :わざわざっていうような友達

and after I looked up わざわざ I was even more confused. Can someone help me out?

This is one of those words that I wish existed in English. For once, I'd like to be able to say something like わざわざどうも when someone brings me some documents I asked for, or some extra napkins at a cafeteria or something.

I'd also look at uses of せっかく to get an idea of the Japanese state of mind when it comes to such matters.

Lionel: Those look like mistakes in the English translation to me.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Lionel: Those look like mistakes in the English translation to me.

Thanks. Thought as much, but after seeing two of them I somehow doubted myself a bit.

Couple more questions:

What does どうにでもなれ mean in this context? Is it something like どうになるでも慣れ？
「スプーンに山盛りチャーハンを乗せ、いまだベッドでぐずぐず言っている逢坂の口に無理やり突っ込んでやってみた。相当勇気のいることだったが、もはや竜児は自暴自棄――ここまで来たらどうにでもなれ、そんな男気溢れる精神状態だったのかもしれない。」
"Loading the spoon with Chinese fried rice, Ryuuji tried to forcefully stuff it into the mouth of the still-complaining Aisaka. This was a pretty brave thing to do but Ryuuji didn't care anymore. He's already seen (experienced) it all - that's probably the overcondient state of mind he was in."

I've seen this のある pattern quite a bit, but I haven't been able to find anything about it grammar-wise. Is it supposed to be similar to …がある?
「ボリュームのあるファッション」

What's 多めに? I can't find it in dictionaries - is it slang or some sort of grammar?
多めに作っておいてよかった、などと呟きつつ、竜児はフライパンの中身を皿に全部さらえてやった。
"While grumbling about how things like how it was good that he cooked so much, Ryuuji emptied the contents of the frying pan onto the plate. "

What is this? Looks like some sort of grammar pattern? Is it being applied to the verb 喚く? Don't know what's going on here.
「喚けども喚けども暖簾に腕押し、馬耳東風。」

@FooSoft --

のある: It's the same as がある. Both are the same. I asked about it somewhere on here, and it's the same thing

多め: It's a grammar point that turns it into "a little bit [adjective]" or "on the [adjective] side"
So, 多め would be "kind of a lot" as opposed to "a lot."
And 長め would be "on the longer side," or as Rikaichan so nicely puts it, "longish"

So you take the い, and turn it into め.
But then, I'm not sure if it works on all adjectives, or just some......

And just to add to the first point, this isn't a special case of のある, it's just the basic idea that any が in a modifying clause can be replaced with の.

"What is this? Looks like some sort of grammar pattern? Is it being applied to the verb 喚く? Don't know what's going on here.
「喚けども喚けども暖簾に腕押し、馬耳東風。」"

視れども見えず、聴けども聞こえず、喰らえどもその味知らず。

can't really explain anything, but I think you get the meaning!

FooSoft Wrote:What is this? Looks like some sort of grammar pattern? Is it being applied to the verb 喚く? Don't know what's going on here.
「喚けども喚けども暖簾に腕押し、馬耳東風。」

From 日本語文型事典:

Quote:[V-ども]
(1) 行けども行けども、原野は続く。
(2)声はすれども、姿は見えず。
(3)振り向いて見れど、そこにはだれもいなかった。
動詞のバ形の「バ」を除いた形に付いて、「V-ても」「Vけれども」という意味を表す。例えば(1)は「行っても行っても」(2)は「声はするけれども」という意味。(1)(2)は慣用表現で、(3)は文語表現である。このような特殊な用法や、「といえども」などの形で用いられる場合を除いては、あまり使われない。

perrin4869 Wrote:そのような質点系一般に対して成り立ついくつの重要な事項を学ぶ。
I am finding trouble understanding the part 一般に対して成り立つ. What is its role in the sentence? I get the idea, that we'll learn important concepts regarding system of particles, but I cannot feel ok without understanding the whole thing.

Here's how I break this up:

[質点系]一般に対して[成り立ついくつの重要な事項]
A一般に対してB

You'd usually say 「Aに対してB」, but it seems that, in this case, not all Bs are related the As; there are exceptions. 「A一般に対してB」basically says, "exceptions aside...". I'd translate the fragment as "The many important concepts that apply to most particle systems".

Rael89 Wrote:I saw this the other day :わざわざっていうような友達
and after I looked up わざわざ I was even more confused. Can someone help me out?

If you move your lazy self out of the sofa for the sole purpose of finishing a certain task, then you did the task わざわざ'ly. If you were going to move your lazy self out of the sofa for other reasons anyway, and decided to finish the task while you were on it, then you did the task ついでに'ly.

I guess 「わざわざっていうような友達」 is a friend who does things for you わざわざ'ly.

FooSoft Wrote:What does どうにでもなれ mean in this context? Is it something like どうになるでも慣れ？

I think it is 「どうにでも成れ」 He's giving orders to his circumstances; "become whatever you like; I don't care".

FooSoft Wrote:What's 多めに? I can't find it in dictionaries - is it slang or some sort of grammar?

It's grammar.「め、み、さ、げ」all attach directly to the the stem of adjectives, which is rare, so they look very strange.

FooSoft Wrote:What is this? Looks like some sort of grammar pattern? Is it being applied to the verb 喚く?

Yes; here are a few other examples:

「歩けども歩けどもオバケがでてこない。」
「行けども行けども冷たい雪しか目に入らない。」

perrin4869 Wrote:そのような質点系一般に対して成り立ついくつの重要な事項を学ぶ。

Are you sure that's いくつの and not いくつかの ?

Can someone please please enlighten me why it is:

otouto wo kaimono ni ikasemasu.
but also
otouto ni nimotsu wo motasemasu.

Genki only says: Caster = ni
So why is sometimes ni and sometimes wo, how do I pick one?

Awesome, thanks everyone!

lanval Wrote:Can someone please please enlighten me why it is:

otouto wo kaimono ni ikasemasu.
but also
otouto ni nimotsu wo motasemasu.

Genki only says: Caster = ni
So why is sometimes ni and sometimes wo, how do I pick one?

(This explanation is condensed from the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar's entry for 'saseru', which is worth reading as it has more detail and examples.)

In the second example the verb (持つ) is transitive -- so を marks its proper direct object (荷物). You can't have を twice for the same verb, so the causee (弟, the one who is made/let to do something) must be marked with に. So that's the easy case -- you don't have an option.

The first example has an intransitive verb (行く). Here you can always mark the causee with を, but you also have a choice to use に. Using に implies that the causee took the action willingly (ie we're closer to English "let" than "make"). Using を doesn't imply anything one way or the other.

Thanks! How can I ever use this fluently T_T

lanval Wrote:Thanks! How can I ever use this fluently T_T

Pm215 is above my level of grammar, as I don't know what transitive and intransitive verbs are. (Although from the context, I assume it's something like a transitive verb causes an actor to transition an object into a different state?) However, in case you're worried that you must switch between these two forms depending on what you're conveying, that's probably not necessarily the case, and maybe that'll make things easier for you.

For example, if I happened to be more comfortable with the A ni B wo C form, I'd cherry-pick what I suppose is described here as a transitive verb. So the first sentence would become "Otouto ni kaimono wo makaseta". (I entrusted the shopping to my younger brother.)

That's not really possible; you need to be able to use both transitive and intransitive verbs.

You can learn to use it fluently with a lot of practice, like anything else in language.

Not sure if this is what you meant yudan, but if you meant like a natural knowledge of when to use what, then yeah you can learn it from practice just like natives do.

Studying "transitive" and "intransitive" verbs will not help you speak like a native.

When you are a kid, did you study that you can say either "I'm going to the store now" or "now I'm going to the store"? Not really, you just figured it out from exposure.

I believe firmly that intransitive verbs and transitive verbs are the same thing. Studying it in the textbook is a waste of time, sentence mining examples would be much more effective for each situation.

If that's what you meant yudan forgive me. I just wanted to clarify.

zachandhobbes Wrote:Not sure if this is what you meant yudan, but if you meant like a natural knowledge of when to use what, then yeah you can learn it from practice just like natives do.

Studying "transitive" and "intransitive" verbs will not help you speak like a native.

I mean both. Read an explanation, study the verbs, see them used, and practice using them. Practice and exposure should be your primary activity, but explanations and a little rote memorization are good too.

Studying transitive and intransitive verbs *will* help you speak like a native because native speakers know what transitive and intransitive verbs are (even if they can't explain it or don't know the terms, no native speaker says ドアが閉める or ドアを閉まる). Of course it's possible to pick them up eventually through exposure, but why not take advantage of the fact that you're an adult and can handle some small grammar explanations that will speed your acquisition?

It's a tricky topic for English speakers because although transitive and intransitive exists in English, the verbs are almost always the same. I don't see anything but advantage in spending some time learning about the difference. It will help you recognize their usage, and you'll learn them more quickly in the end.

But I am very strongly against the "exposure only" idea that's sometimes espoused on this board; I think by avoiding any explanations at all you shoot yourself in the foot. Sure, you can still walk with a bullet hole in your foot, but it's better if it's not there.

(I don't know how we got sidetracked into this because most intransitive verbs don't have causative forms so that's not really an issue. EDIT: Never mind, I see the original had 行く, which is one of the few intransitive verbs that does have a causative form.)

Mushi:

Quote:I assume it's something like a transitive verb causes an actor to transition an object into a different state?

Yes. The Japanese terms are 自動詞 (intransitive) and 他動詞 (transitive).

In most cases I prefer JSL's "operational" vs. "affective" distinction -- operational verbs are ones that involve control, and affective are ones that don't. This avoids the constant need to make exceptions for the motion verbals (which are intransitive). Although it has its own problems since some predicates (like 分かる and 好き) seem to straddle the fence. Ah well, nothing's perfect...

At the end of the day, what matters is what you know, not how you learnt it. This goes for, vocab/grammar/pronunciation you name it. What matters is whether or not you know how to use verbs correctly. At some point in your studies even if you're avoiding textbook explanations you're going to run up into the point of transitive/intransitive verbs and realise there's some distinction in how they work. At that point it's handy to have a mental label for the two types and pay attention to them when learning new verbs. That way you're not just getting the gist of a sentence and guessing what the verb is acting on from context while being somewhat confused at the particle choice. Paying attention to transitive/intransitive verbs (whether you call them that or not) will improve your understanding of particles and sentence structure quite a lot.

A girl has on her Skype, and I asked her what it means but she won't tell me.

"きゅん。ってなる瞬間 lol ♥"

That's the full thing. Would appreciate a translation! I have a vague idea, but not a confident one.

TheVinster Wrote:A girl has on her Skype, and I asked her what it means but she won't tell me.

"きゅん。ってなる瞬間 lol ♥"

That's the full thing. Would appreciate a translation! I have a vague idea, but not a confident one.

Kyun is an onomatopoeic word for when a girl's heart skips a beat.