vosmiura Wrote:当たる has a ton of uses, but I couldn't find a description matching the following use.

論文を書くに当たって、たくさんの論文を参考にしました。

I know -当たり can mean "per-". Does -当たって here mean "for ~"?

Since the more learned Japanese scholars here seem to have had a tiring Friday night, I'll give it a shot.

当たって can mean "a correct prediction, criticism, or evaluation."

As in:

Teacher #1: How was that essay you just got from Takashi?

Teacher #2:
Takashi is a truly great student, and again submitted high level work. The way the essay was written was right on the money ((or "was exactly as I wanted them to be written")), a number of other sources ((or "papers")) were referenced ((or "cited")) in the writing of it.

or 論文を書くに当たって、たくさんの論文を参考にしました。

vosmiura Wrote:当たる has a ton of uses, but I couldn't find a description matching the following use.

論文を書くに当たって、たくさんの論文を参考にしました。

I know -当たり can mean "per-". Does -当たって here mean "for ~"?

論文を書くに当たって、たくさんの論文を参考にしました。means "I consulted a lot of papers to write my paper."

当たって in this example is kind of a mixture of "in order to," "when," and "as." I don't know any English equivalent that means the exact same thing. It could sound slightly formal. 臨む (のぞむ) is similar in meaning, so you might want to look up the word in a dictionary to get a rough idea.

The following sentences all means "I read tons of papers to write my paper" but there is a slight difference in nuance:
論文を書くのに、たくさんの論文を参考にしました。 Most informal of the three. Spoken Japanese
論文を書くために、たくさんの論文を参考にしました。Natural and neutral. Might imply usually you don't read a lot of papers because ために has a connotation of "effort."
論文を書くに当たって、たくさんの論文を参考にしました。Slightly more formal than ために. Has no connotation of "effort" so it never means "I read TONS OF PAPERS!"

TheTrueBlue Wrote:Certain parts of this sentence seem beyond dictionary definitions:

他の女性客から落とうまれ包もう，待つことやく一時間, ようやく三人が着替えて揃うった。

The subtitles read:

"After waiting close to an hour while enduring dirty looks from women the three of them finally emerged from the changing room."

What does 落とうまれ包もう mean?

Does this sentence contain "changing room", 着替えて is "te" form of changing but can it also pretty much mean "changing room" in this sentence?

お願いします

Reading the translation, I thought it should read "他の女性客から疎まれつつも (うとまれつつも)." Actually I couldn't come up with no other idiomatic Japanese sentences that sound similar and mean pretty much the same. But of course I could be wrong. Can you upload a segment of the audio/video so I can transcribe it? Or maybe you can give me more context so I can guess the correct sentence.

Yeah, this is 2級 grammar.

Here are the examples from kanzen master.

新しい支店を開くにあたって、まず市場調査を行う必要がある。
結婚するにあたり、両家の家族が集まって食事をした。
卒業にあたって、クラスのアルバムを作った。
開会にあたり、ひと言ごあいさつを申し上げます。

and the description:

〜（の）とき　〜（の）際

「〜」大きい事、特別な事　（日常的なこと小さいことには使えない）ー　これからはじまる事が多い。

Re: 当たって
Was my example grammatically incompatible? Or improbable? Or totally off base?

magamo Wrote:Reading the translation, I thought it should read "他の女性客から疎まれつつも (うとまれつつも)." Actually I couldn't come up with no other idiomatic Japanese sentences that sound similar and mean pretty much the same. But of course I could be wrong. Can you upload a segment of the audio/video so I can transcribe it? Or maybe you can give me more context so I can guess the correct sentence.

I think you're right on the money on that one.

I've uploaded the 20 second clip to youtube.

Link:

TheTrueBlue Wrote:Re: 当たって
Was my example grammatically incompatible? Or improbable? Or totally off base?

Totally off base I'm afraid.

Ack!

済みませんでした。

TheTrueBlue Wrote:Re: 当たって
Was my example grammatically incompatible? Or improbable? Or totally off base?

magamo Wrote:Reading the translation, I thought it should read "他の女性客から疎まれつつも (うとまれつつも)." Actually I couldn't come up with no other idiomatic Japanese sentences that sound similar and mean pretty much the same. But of course I could be wrong. Can you upload a segment of the audio/video so I can transcribe it? Or maybe you can give me more context so I can guess the correct sentence.

I think you're right on the money on that one.

I've uploaded the 20 second clip to youtube.

Link:

Kyon is saying, "他の女性客から疎まれつつも、待つこと約一時間。ようやく三人が着替えて出そろった。"

As for your explanation of "当たって," it's strange to interpret the sentence that way. Certainly 当たっている can mean "right," "correct" etc, e.g.,

You: あいつがあのこ処女だって言ってたんだよなー。You know what? He said she was a virgin.
Me: さぁ、当たってんじゃない？よく知らないけど。Maybe. But I don't give a shit.
You: 当たってる当たってないの問題じゃなくてさ、何で知ってるのかなと。 I'm not talking about whether he's right or not. I want to know why he knows that.
Me: 言ってた本人に聞けよ。How should I know?

but if I were to say something like "The way the essay was written was right on the money ((or "was exactly as I wanted them to be written")), a number of other sources ((or "papers")) were referenced ((or "cited")) in the writing of it" using similar words/structures, I'd say 論文の書き方は当たっていて、たくさんの参考文献をあげていました。

But 当たっている/当たる often implies that it's a coincidence, so it sounds as if the teacher didn't think he could write it properly, say, because it was his first paper. Also, 論文の書き方は正しくて is more natural and idiomatic if you mean "The way the essay was written was right."

Thanks for the help.

magamo Wrote:As for your explanation of "当たって," it's strange to interpret the sentence that way. Certainly 当たっている can mean "right," "correct" etc, e.g.,

You: あいつがあのこ処女だって言ってたんだよなー。You know what? He said she was a virgin.
Me: さぁ、当たってんじゃない？よく知らないけど。Maybe. But I don't give a shit.
You: 当たってる当たってないの問題じゃなくてさ、何で知ってるのかなと。 I'm not talking about whether he's right or not. I want to know why he knows that.
Me: 言ってた本人に聞けよ。How should I know?

Hahaha.

magamo Wrote:but if I were to say something like "The way the essay was written was right on the money ((or "was exactly as I wanted them to be written")), a number of other sources ((or "papers")) were referenced ((or "cited")) in the writing of it" using similar words/structures, I'd say 論文の書き方は当たっていて、たくさんの参考文献をあげていました。

But 当たっている/当たる often implies that it's a coincidence, so it sounds as if the teacher didn't think he could write it properly, say, because it was his first paper. Also, 論文の書き方は正しくて is more natural and idiomatic if you mean "The way the essay was written was right."

Roger that.

This text came on when I was watching a Japanese show (like those PSA's about earthquakes or typhoons):

２５分くり下げてお送りしています

Within 25 minutes, they'll be dismissed and sent off?

お願いします

TheTrueBlue Wrote:２５分くり下げてお送りしています

It means "the transmission [due to some event, like a baseball match] is delayed by 25 minutes. [I hope your dvd was not programmed to record this show]."

どうもありがとう iSoron.　What function does the　くり　serve?

So here:
下げて　＝　Move back

But how should お送りしてます　be　taken to mean?　My rikaichan has 送りしてます　as "seeing off, sending off, funeral, or escapement."

迷惑をかけてすみません。

TheTrueBlue Wrote:どうもありがとう iSoron.　What function does the　くり　serve?

So here:
下げて　＝　Move back

繰り下げる is a compound verb that means to postpone.

TheTrueBlue Wrote:But how should お送りしてます　be　taken to mean?　My rikaichan has 送りしてます　as "seeing off, sending off, funeral, or escapement."

迷惑をかけてすみません。

It's used to refer to broadcasting, as in of television programming.

Thanks QuackingShoe.

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

See, now I can read what you're saying. Otherwise it's like trying to read romaji, I swear.

I always thought of お送りします as being like "brought [to you]" in English, like the sponser's credits you hear on TV shows:

この番組はご覧のスポンサーの提供でお送りします
This programme was brought to you by the following sponsers.

the sentence:
彼は全ての悪から魔力で守られた。
from the tanaka corpus (that's the one they use on wwwjdic, right?), they translate it as:
"He was charmed against all evil.". as I understand it, 守られた is the past potential form of 守る, but... what happened to the "potential" in the translation?
would "he, by means of magic, was able to defend himself from all evil" be a correct (though non-idiomatic) translation?

dbh2ppa Wrote:the sentence:
彼は全ての悪から魔力で守られた。
from the tanaka corpus (that's the one they use on wwwjdic, right?), they translate it as:
"He was charmed against all evil.". as I understand it, 守られた is the past potential form of 守る, but... what happened to the "potential" in the translation?
would "he, by means of magic, was able to defend himself from all evil" be a correct (though non-idiomatic) translation?

What I read is:
He was being protected from all evil by magic.
lit: He all evil from with magic being protected.

It's the から〜られる form, if you shorten the sentencte to --> 『悪から守られた。』
(Being protected from evil.)
Does it make more sense then?
I think you mixed it up with something(sorry I only know how to say in Chinese 『被动态』) else. This is from に...られる-form as in:

彼に踏まれた。
I was stepped on by him.
彼女に顔をビンタされた。
I got my face slapped by her.

versus
(potential)
納豆を食べられる。
I can eat natto.
川の向こうまで泳がれる。
I can swim (till)across the river.

They both use the 〜られる-form but combined with the から/に it is not the "potential" form anymore. (again I'm sorry I don't know what it's called in English)

With some words the "potential" form gets shortened to 〜える instead of 〜られる making it easier to spot.
Examples:
食べれる - 食べられる
買える - 買われる
歩ける - 歩かれる

I don't think the 『was able to』in『He, by means of magic, was able to defend himself from all evil.』should be there since because of the から。
I guess if it would be "potential" then i'd be something like『悪に守れる。』or in other form『悪から守るのはできる。』

*Edit: it was『passive form』thanks to QuackingShoes, there you go

Musashi Wrote:What I read is:
He was being protected from all evil by magic.
lit: He all evil from with magic being protected.

It's the から〜られる form, if you shorten the sentencte to --> 『悪から守られた。』
(Being protected from evil.)
Does it make more sense then?

I don't think the 『was able to』in『He, by means of magic, was able to defend himself from all evil.』should be there since because of the から。
I guess if it would be "potential" then i'd be something like『悪に守れる。』or in other form『悪から守るのはできる。』

hm... checking A dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, it seems indeed ~られる is a passive form of verbs... which is weird because Tae Kim states ~られる to be potential... is it both, depending on the context?

られる is both potential and passive for ichidan verbs (eru/iru), but 守る is a godan verb. 守れる is it's potential form in standard, modern Japanese (in other dialects, well...). Tae Kim does explain this
Edit: Though it doesn't seem like he ever explicitly spells out that the potential and passive are the same in that instance.

I'm looking for some help with kanji. At 7:40 in

(one piece 409). There is the following exchange.

Luffee「そうなのか、じゃ、女だらけの海賊団なのか？強えのか？」

Girl「おろかな質問だ」

However, I am not sure whether おろか is 愚か or 疎か. I am leaning towards the first, but both seem totally plausible.​ Anyone know?

Hey, good timing! I just learned that grammar point a minute ago. Here's the link http://www.guidetojapanese.org/even.html#part4

おろか="you can indicate that something is so ridiculous that it's not even worth considering. In English, we might say something like, "Are you kidding? I can't touch my knees much less do a full split!" In this example, the full split is so beyond the person's abilities that it would be foolish to even consider it."

I think thats the answer to your question anyway, I'm not sure. ...Actually, considering its おらかな I don't think it is the grammar point and thereofore probably more likely to be 愚か. But whatever.

社長は多忙なためパーティーに出席できません

I was just curious if there is some kind of grammar rule or something for the ため thing here. The ため right next to the パーティー　is the confusing part for me.

cloudstrife543 Wrote:社長は多忙なためパーティーに出席できません

I was just curious if there is some kind of grammar rule or something for the ため thing here. The ため right next to the パーティー　is the confusing part for me.

ため has several uses, this is one. This one feels quite formal to me, it's very common in news articles. The part before the ため is the reason for the part after it.

Another example sentence:
病気の陽性反応を示したため、詳しい遺伝子検査が行われる。
"Following the positive signs of the disease, thorough DNA testing is taking place."

thermal Wrote:I'm looking for some help with kanji. At 7:40 in

(one piece 409). There is the following exchange.

Luffee「そうなのか、じゃ、女だらけの海賊団なのか？強えのか？」

Girl「おろかな質問だ」

However, I am not sure whether おろか is 愚か or 疎か. I am leaning towards the first, but both seem totally plausible.​ Anyone know?

blackmacros Wrote:Hey, good timing! I just learned that grammar point a minute ago. Here's the link http://www.guidetojapanese.org/even.html#part4

おろか="you can indicate that something is so ridiculous that it's not even worth considering. In English, we might say something like, "Are you kidding? I can't touch my knees much less do a full split!" In this example, the full split is so beyond the person's abilities that it would be foolish to even consider it."

I think thats the answer to your question anyway, I'm not sure. ...Actually, considering its おらかな I don't think it is the grammar point and thereofore probably more likely to be 愚か. But whatever.

The おろか in the excerpt from One Peace is 愚か. 愚かな質問 is the definition of the word 愚問 (ぐもん).

The おろか Tae Kim is talking about is 疎か (Sometimes written as 愚か). Most of the time it's written in kana and used almost exclusively in these forms:

1. nounはおろか、clause. (e.g., 日本語はおろか、母国語すらおぼつかないようでは困る。Japanese, huh? You better learn your mother tongue first.)

2. verb like "say," "ask," etcもおろかなnounだ。(e.g., 強えのか、だと？　聞くもおろかなことだ。Did you just say, "Are you strong?" Who do you think we are?)

The meaning of おろか in usage 1 is "even," "let alone," "much less" and so on. The おろか in usage 2 is describing the action of "say," "ask," etc, not the noun. Actually おろかs in 愚かな質問だ and 聞くもおろかな質問だ are different; the former means the question is stupid while the latter means something like "Asking such a question makes you look stupid."

Thanks magamo.