There's nothing subtle or complicated at all about this usage of に; it's basic grammar.

For me, there was never a time when things "stuck"; after using the "ignore grammar" method for 5 years I had to go back and relearn a lot of stuff from the beginning, and it vastly improved both my reading comprehension and spoken Japanese when I did so. (And this was after I had passed JLPT 1 -- if you had asked me then, I probably would have said that I understood Japanese grammar pretty well, but I was wrong.)

Yeah, なんて often belittles nouns, but not always. When it does, it shows the speakers feeling that something is stupid or unneeded.
教育は要らない = I don't need education
教育なんて要らない = I don't need such a useless thing as education

That's sort of the emphasis it contains in those situations.

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:What do you mean "accept it the way it is"? How can you understand the sentence if you don't know what's modifying what?

For example, take the sentence:
「彼女は国際的に有名な歌手です。」

I think in this case, what's hard to understand for the poster is the subtle use of に.
By accept it as it is, I mean accept that in this case after "国際的” there will be a に.
Get it, and then move on. It's not really essential to worry about small things like this. In long run, as you read more and more, if you still don't get it(which I doubt) come again and ask. Is it really important to know now? For sure there will be a time when it will naturally stick in through repeated exposure.

But there is not always a に after 的, or 国際的... If you don't understand what the に is doing, then you won't understand how the meaning differs when, say, な is used. The use of に is not subtle, and lacking an understanding of how its used is not a "small thing". It's central to the understanding of the vast majority of Japanese sentences. It's a very basic grammar term that, especially as its used in this case, is so simple that one would find it hard pressed to mix up with any other particle.

You don't have to learn grammar in order to learn a language, but why waste 20 years of your life eschewing grammar terms when you can just take the easy route, study it, and learn a language faster? I can absolutely promise you, Khatz or whoever he is, didn't learn Japanese by completely avoiding reading about grammar. He didn't just learn it by osmosis. I don't care what he says on his site, unless he's some kind of savant, he studied grammar.

There are all these claims going around that you simply don't need grammar whatsoever to learn a language; you can just learn via enough exposure. Has anyone who is actually saying that ever learned, to native fluency, a language without ever studying a grammar term once? In less than 10 years? Because unless you can tell me, "Yes I learned Japanese to native fluency without ever reading about は or が, or に or で or anything like that" and are actually telling me the truth, what you're saying about just "picking it up naturally" is your assumption; it's not grounded in fact.

IceCream Wrote:um... i'm not sure, but i think Tae Kim does cover this use of に. I know i read it somewhere, anyway. It's roughly equivalent to the -ly ending in english. Of course, its a rough translation, but it can get you pretty far.
So, 彼女は国際的に有名な歌手です。 = she is an internationally famous singer.
These kind of modifications work in the same way as english, so it's pretty ok once you've seen a few of them... ^_^

That makes sense. Is there a corresponding rule for い adjectives? Would it just be く form?

FooSoft Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:um... i'm not sure, but i think Tae Kim does cover this use of に. I know i read it somewhere, anyway. It's roughly equivalent to the -ly ending in english. Of course, its a rough translation, but it can get you pretty far.
So, 彼女は国際的に有名な歌手です。 = she is an internationally famous singer.
These kind of modifications work in the same way as english, so it's pretty ok once you've seen a few of them... ^_^

That makes sense. Is there a corresponding rule for い adjectives? Would it just be く form?

Yes. i.e. すごく有名な歌手.

In addition, verbs can sometimes act as "adverbs" (or at least go in places where we would use adverbs in English) via the -te form. For instance, 遅れて来ました means "I came late".

FooSoft Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:um... i'm not sure, but i think Tae Kim does cover this use of に. I know i read it somewhere, anyway. It's roughly equivalent to the -ly ending in english. Of course, its a rough translation, but it can get you pretty far.
So, 彼女は国際的に有名な歌手です。 = she is an internationally famous singer.
These kind of modifications work in the same way as english, so it's pretty ok once you've seen a few of them... ^_^

That makes sense. Is there a corresponding rule for い adjectives? Would it just be く form?

As stated, yes. What's even more confusing are adverbial phrases that are basically groups of words.. Like 都合よく, which doesn't translate well ("goodly of circumstances", maybe), but basically infers that the conditions are suitable. It was very confusing the first time I saw it; I couldn't understand why there was a noun, followed by an adverb, followed by a verb (like 都合よく使う) with no particle anywhere to be seen.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Yes. i.e. すごく有名な歌手.

In addition, verbs can sometimes act as "adverbs" (or at least go in places where we would use adverbs in English) via the -te form. For instance, 遅れて来ました means "I came late".

I always read it as a verb, because to me it was just easier to interpret, especially since some verbs don't translate as smoothly into adverbs. For example, I would read 遅れて来ました as "I was late and I came." Whatever works for people, though.

mirina Wrote:As stated, yes. What's even more confusing are adverbial phrases that are basically groups of words.. Like 都合よく, which doesn't translate well ("goodly of circumstances", maybe), but basically infers that the conditions are suitable. It was very confusing the first time I saw it; I couldn't understand why there was a noun, followed by an adverb, followed by a verb (like 都合よく使う) with no particle anywhere to be seen.

Hmm, that's an interesting example. I can kind of see 「都合よく使う」 as "circumstances well used", which is different from "good circumstances used" in such that 「よく使う」 is kind of a noun phrase. I'm probably totally wrong though

mirina Wrote:I always read it as a verb, because to me it was just easier to interpret, especially since some verbs don't translate as smoothly into adverbs. For example, I would read 遅れて来ました as "I was late and I came." Whatever works for people, though.

That's kind of how I've looked at it too. 遅れて sets the context/state, and in that state you 来ました. But come think of it, that's basically same as the definition for an adverb isn't it -- that's an interesting way of looking at it.

FooSoft Wrote:遅れて sets the context/state, and in that state you 来ました.

IMO that's the perfect way to look at it. A て form can always (or nearly always) be looked at as representing some sort of existing state, completed action, or started action.

mirina Wrote:For example, I would read 遅れて来ました as "I was late and I came." Whatever works for people, though.

...better than coming early I suppose. </obligatory>

Actually, when two words are connected by -te form, I don't think it's considered an adverb. It's like 持ってくる and やってみる, where the -te form verb is the actual verb and the one coming after it is an auxiliary verb changing the meaning of the actual verb.

春が近ずいてるなぁと思うよ。

Well, spring is coming, yes, this seems obvious. But what is this ずいてる? I cannot find this in any of the resources I have available to me.

Thanks much!

Yeah, because づく and ずく are pronounced identically (in most dialects), 近ずく is a pretty common error and you can see it a lot on the Internet.

Now that you point it out, it seems so obvious... 近づいてる. Thank you. I think I need to train myself to check for mistyping, づ and ず, when one or the other isn't making any sense. Thanks again!

Got another quick question:

「作業するにはもっと広いスペースが必要だ。」

Why isn't there a の after 作業する to noun-ify that expression? Is it just dropped because のには would be too long? Is using の in that place awkward and/or ungrammatical?

FooSoft Wrote:Got another quick question:

「作業するにはもっと広いスペースが必要だ。」

Why isn't there a の after 作業する to noun-ify that expression? Is it just dropped because のには would be too long? Is using の in that place awkward and/or ungrammatical?

Verb+のには is better when a sentence/clause carries a comparative sense while verb+には is more common when it doesn't. For example, you can say この部屋は作業するのには向いていないが、住むには快適だ。(This isn't a good workroom, but it's a comfortable studio to live in.) In this case, the first half "Granted that this isn't a good workroom, but..." is a little emotional. You can say この部屋は作業するには向いていないが、住むのには快適だ。This version emphasizes the latter part "It's comfortable to live here nonetheless." If you say, "この部屋は作業するには向いていないが、住むには快適だ。," it's just stating a fact and might sound like a dry sentence.

In short, the verb+のにはXだ structure implies "The fact that verb action is X is an exceptional case" or "I know the verb action is X, but..."

It's kind of difficult to use のには in conjunction with もっと広いスペースが必要だ, though it's possible depending on context. If it were もっと広いスペースは必要だ, you'd use のには in usual context: 作業するのにはもっと広いスペースは必要だ。because it implies "I know it's too small to work in, but it's large enough for another purpose." Anyway, if I were to say these kinds of thing, I'd rephrase them so the meanings are clear, e.g., 作業するのには狭すぎる。もっと広いスペースが必要だ。(for the のには+が必要だ sentence. Also, に in には is pronounced in very high pitch and the following は in lower pitch to place an accent.) and これ以上広いスペースは必要ない。作業すると言うのであれば話しは別だが。(for the のには+は必要だ sentence). The original sentence in question is ok because it doesn't imply anything.

This doesn't apply to cases where には is nominalizing a word/phrase that isn't a verb, e.g., 〜できないのには and 美しいのには. An example where you don't use の in this kind of case is には in a set phrase 〜には関わらず such as できるできないには関わらず (regardless of whether you can do it or not).

Thanks for the explanation, that helps out a lot. I was familiar with the "despite" usage of のに but didn't realize that adding it here would add that kind of a meaning.

Is this usage an exception for には or is it possible for other particles as well? Up until now I thought you would always either have to use の our a generic noun like よう or こと to create noun phrases so that you can use particles on verbs like this.

FooSoft Wrote:Thanks for the explanation, that helps out a lot. I was familiar with the "despite" usage of のに but didn't realize that adding it here would add that kind of a meaning.

Is this usage an exception for には or is it possible for other particles as well? Up until now I thought you would always either have to use の our a generic noun like よう or こと to create noun phrases so that you can use particles on verbs like this.

I guess you could say の can nominalize a verb to connect a particle that should be attached to a noun, e.g.,

作業をするのは嫌いだ。
休憩するのが好きだ。
作業を続けるのと休憩するの、どっちにする？

I believe any decent textbook explains these. Grammatically speaking, you can swap の with こと in these three examples. But you might sound a little too stiff, especially when you say the こと versions in conversation. I don't think you should worry about this too much. I'm sure you'll come across の before a particle in real life so often you don't think it's strange.

I think the question was why it's OK to connect a verb directly to に, like 勉強するに -- this shows up every so often in some other constructions, with a verb directly connecting to a particle (見るがいい, 目指すは神殿, etc.) Of course this is a holdover from classical Japanese where you didn't need the の or こと but just the 連体形 form, but I don't know where else it pops up in the modern language.

Yes, that's exactly what I was curious about in that last post. I'll keep in mind that it is sort of an exception, thanks

Hmm? Does the average Japanese grammar book teach that に should follow a noun or nominalized phrase and that examples like 住むには快適だもん、いーじゃない！　そ、そりゃぁ、作業するには狭いかもしんないけど…　えーい、うるさい、うるさい、うるさい！　なーんにもわかってないんだから。部屋を選ぶに当たってのポイントってもんをこの私が教えてあげよう。引っ越しするにしたって部屋が決まらないんじゃはじまらないないしね。are exceptions and holdovers of old grammar? Or do they teach に as a special particle that can follow a verb without sounding like old Japanese?

Either way, these four verb+に examples don't sound like classical Japanese or set phrases. They're just following normal modern grammar. So, for example, "勉強するにしても目的がなければ何の意味もない" doesn't sound like Japanese using old grammar. If anything, I think it's a little difficult to come up with a realistic situation where 勉強するのにしても sounds definitely better, though it could just be that I'm missing something.

Here are illustrative sentences:

一人で住むのには快適な家です。-> ok (This implies that it's too small for more than one person or something. You can exploit the pitch accent system to place an accent on に so it emphasize the implication.)
一人で住むには快適な家です -> ok (This has a less comparative sense. You can take advantage of the pitch accent system the same way so it clearly implies it's good only when you live by yourself.)
一人で住むのに快適な家です -> ok (There is virtually no comparative sense. If you want to emphasize that it's good only when you live by yourself, you place an accent on で by the pitch accent system. If you give an accent on に, the implication can be either that it's a good room to live in, but it may not good for other purposes or that it's good only when you live by yourself.)
一人で住むに快適な家です -> Some would say this is sloppy grammar, but you'll come across this kind of Japanese once in a while in conversation. I don't recommend this.

None of the four examples sounds old or classical. The last one would be considered wrong in standardized tests, I think.

As for 見るがいい, it should be considered an idiomatic structure. You can say 死ぬがいい, やってみるがいいさ etc. This grammar adds a certain gravity. This is kind of rare in normal conversations.

目指すは神殿 is also kind of an idiomatic structure. You'll come across this kind of grammar more often in a scripted dialogue than in real conversations.

Edit: I wonder how you learned verb+に. The first four verb+に examples 住むには, 作業するには, 部屋を選ぶに, and 引っ越しするに are totally ok and perfectly grammatical. The fifth example 勉強するに is also all right. But the last one 一人で住むに is not because it sounds too dry and straight as if something is missing. It kind of makes sense, and native speakers might say it. But it's hard to come up with a situation where that kind of sentence fits better.

Thanks for the examples magamo, they help. And yes, I'm not sure about the "average" grammar book, but I was going off the Tae Kim guide exclusively (I look stuff up in other guides, but it's the only one I've read straight through).

From http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/surunaru it kind of sounded like there was no way for this grammar to work:

Quote:"You may be wondering how to use 「なる」 and 「する」 with verbs since there's no way to directly modify a verb with another verb. The simple solution is to add a generic noun such as a generic event: こと （事） or an appearance/manner: よう （様）."

So basically in the sentence I was asking about I expected something like:
「作業するのにもっと広いスペースが必要だ。」 or
「作業することにはもっと広いスペースが必要だ。」
and was thrown off by the に usage directly on the verb.

OK. I took a look at the Tae Kim article. The に he's explaining in the linked article is a different kind of に than your example. There are many usages and meanings when it comes to the particle に (One of my J-J dictionary lists 31 different uses of に as a particle.), but I don't think it would help much to explain every usage here. So I'll only explain verb+に cases that you'll frequently run into in native material. I'll use some grammar terms, but you can just skip them.

In general, there are two kinds of に particles. One is classified as 格助詞 and the other falls into the 接続助詞 category. The definitions of these grammar terms are not important. It just means there are two entirely different kinds of に.

に as a 格助詞 usually follows a noun, and when you attach it to a verb, usually you need こと and the like. The only exceptions to this rule you may frequently find in real examples would be:

1. verb+に+verb case I: This form emphasizes the meaning of the verb action. The first verb takes 連用形 (If you don't know what 連用形 means, just forget it. You'll pick up what it means soon by looking at examples and real sentences in the wild.) Here are example sentences:

待ちに待った夏休み！ ((Implying "Yeah! Finally!" etc.))
泣きに泣いた。(I cried and cried.)

Note that the first verbs are not 待つに and 泣くに. They should be conjugated so it becomes 連用形. The verbs surrounding に should be the same, so you don't say 泣きに笑った.

2. verb+に+verb case II: This form indicates a concession, compromising, reluctance, and so on. Again, the two verbs should be the same. The first verb doesn't get conjugated in this case.

読むには読んでみたが、面白くなかった。(I read it (implying "because a friend said it was good and wanted me to read it" etc.) but it was boring.)
彼に聞くには聞いてみるが... (Well, I'll ask him that... (implying "but I don't know if you can get the answer you want" etc.))

The other kind of に, i.e., に as a 接続助詞, always takes a verb without の and such. Here are three common usages:

1. 〜にも: This form means "but," "however," etc. Here is an example:

進もうにもこれ以上進めない。((Implying "I want to/tried to go further, but") I can't walk any more.)

2. verb+に+verb+negative potential: This implies that the agent of the verb can't do that when the situation kind of makes people do that. You don't conjugate the verb before に.

笑うに笑えない。((lol. Look at that thing! ...wait. It's mine.) This isn't funny...)

3. Versatile set phrases like "I think," "I guess," "in short," etc.: I think you should treat this case as idioms. 思うに, 考えるに, and 要するに are oft-used phrases:

私が思うに、君は間違っている。(In my humble opinion/I think/If you ask me, you're wrong.)
要するに、みんなあれがしたいんだよ。(At the end of the day, everyone wants to do that.)

There are other usages of に like the one in your example.

には is a combination of the 格助詞 version of に and 係助詞 は. You can attach の to に to nominalize a verb. But this special combo works without の too. As I explained in the previous posts, the difference is that のには has a stronger comparative sense.

You'll come across other kinds of verb+に sooner or later. But I guess I covered most of the major usages of に taking a verb without の/こと/whatever in this post.

Edit: These are NOT archaic grammar. None of example sentences here gives any sign of old Japanese. Also, 作業することには広いスペースが必要だ。 is wrong. Both 作業することには慣れていない。and 作業するのには慣れていない are ok. But you don't say 作業することにはXが必要だ。

FooSoft Wrote:Is this usage an exception for には or is it possible for other particles as well? Up until now I thought you would always either have to use の […]

Foosoft. Here’s stuff on the compound particle には lifted straight from Dict. of Int. Jap. Grammar:

Compound particles consist of two or more words and function as single particles in that they are interpreted as a unit rather than word by word. Many compound particles mark only nouns; some mark verbs or sentences as well. にはmarks V and Ns.

fyi DIJG lists about 70 compound particles. 11 of them can follow Verbs - 7 of which start with に. Many of the N-following ones also start with に. So I guess it’s just a matter of learning their usage. For the N only ones, if it makes sense semantically, のcan still be used to nominalize the verbs.

Back to には which means: for; to; in order to
そこへ行くには地下鉄が一番便利です。
(The subway is the most convenient way to get there.)

1. Vinf.nonpast ＋には is used to indicate a purpose for doing s.t. The predicate often expresses the necessity for or importance of using a specific means.

2. Vinf.nonpast may be nominalized by no. There is no difference in meaning between ni wa and no ni wa.
人の性格を見抜くのには深い洞察力が必要だ。

3. When にはfollows a noun it must be a noun of action which can take the verb
する. If not a noun of action, the sentence does not express a purpose. [It would be just a regular に＋は as in 東京には]

Other similar 'purpose' expressions: (ni, tame ni, noni)

a. 　　私は二本語の勉強に日本へ行った。
　　　 (I went to Japan for the study of Japanese.)
b. 　　 私は二本語を勉強しに日本へ行った。
　　　 (I went to Japan to study Japanese.)
c. 　　私は二本語を勉強するために日本へ行った。
　　　(I went to Japan in order to study Japanese.)
d. 　　私は二本語を勉強する｛のに/notに｝日本へ行った。
　　　(I went to Japan for the purpose of studying Japanese.)

[a] means practically the same as [b]. However, [b] has a restriction on the main verb; that is, only the verb of motion can be used. The difference between [a] and [c] is that the latter has the stronger meaning of purpose. [a] sounds more casual than [c]. [a] is different from [d] in that the latter puts more weight on the way the speaker learned Japanese. In other words, [d] implies seriousness of the purpose.

That explanation makes me wonder how Dict. of Int. Jap. Grammar explains certain things about the には combination. Hmm, for example, take the example in Thora's post and compare it with a slightly modified sentence:

人の性格を見抜くのには深い洞察力が必要だ。 -> ok,
人の性格を見抜くことには深い洞察力が必要だ。-> Hmmm. Depends on context.

But

人の性格を見抜くのには長けている。-> ok,
人の性格を見抜くことには長けている。-> ok.

This isn't an exception. For example, it seems the grammar book gives そこへ行くには地下鉄が一番便利です as an example sentence. As the book says, そこへ行くのには地下鉄が一番便利です。is ok too, of course. But そこへ行くことには地下鉄が一番便利です。sounds odd. I don't think you'd say it in a normal context. However, そこへ行くことには変わりない, そこへ行くことには反対だ, etc. are all ok.

What does it say about this?

I'm guessing these are not about usage of a special combination of particles. If I'm not totally wrong, it's the semantics of each sentence that is making seemingly the same structure sound ungrammatical/strange. Actually I think claiming には and のには has no difference in meaning is kind of misleading. For example, if there are two people A and B who say

A: 人の性格を見抜くのには深い洞察力が必要だ。
B: 人の性格を見抜くには深い洞察力が必要だ。,

then I'd say A is subconsciously comparing it with something that doesn't require a careful observation and keen insight. I guess it's not a stretch to say dropping の doesn't change the meaning very much in this particular case because what the speaker is subconsciously thinking is kind of subtle thanks to the meaning of the sentence. But the difference in nuance might not be that subtle in another sentence. Even in this pair, you might be able use this kind of difference to detect a lie and/or do the 人の性格を見抜く thing. Maybe I'm thinking too much...

hey Magamo. I'm afraid I don't really understand you point. Are you saying that の　and こと must be interchangeable? The book mentions only の.

The book's "no difference in meaning" doesn't rule out some difference in nuance, I suppose. I'll trust you that they seem different. My spidey senses simply don't extend that far.

btw, aren't your に...慣れていない　and に...長けている　examples different than the には　to indicate "purpose" ? The にs　there indicate what someone's getting used to or getting good at, rather than the purpose. The の　is needed, I assume: not 人の性格を見抜くには長けている.

Whereas with 「そこへ行くには地下鉄が一番便利です」, the subway is the best means to achieve the goal of going somewhere. And, similarly, FooSoft's line was something about needing more space in order to work.

Foosoft, I'm glad you asked. This is exactly the kind of detail that's easy to gloss over when reading, then bungle up when writing. I might check whether using の with the other 7 is also optional.