Here's something that has me stumped:

日本人は学校で英語を習う。しかし、多くの日本人は英語が話せない。

What's the deal with 「多くの」 多く is just adverbial form of 多い but it's here it's being used as a noun/no adjective?

FooSoft Wrote:Here's something that has me stumped:

日本人は学校で英語を習う。しかし、多くの日本人は英語が話せない。

What's the deal with 「多くの」 多く is just adverbial form of 多い but it's here it's being used as a noun/no adjective?

Yeah, because adverbs only work on the verbs, you wanna add a の when you use it with a noun. It looks kind of strange at first, but you'll see it a lot. Especially with 多く just because of it's use. It's the same with たくさん.

Haha, that's kind of strange. Why not just use 多い then as opposed to going through the effort of turning it into an adverb, then adding の to make it into a noun clause? Does it add a different meaning?

You'd have the rewrite the sentence, giving emphasis to English instead of the Japanese people who can't speak it, changing the meaning in the process.
"Japanese people learn English in school, but many Japanese people can't speak it."
would change to
"Japanese people learn English in school, but English isn't spoken by many Japanese people."
..which doesn't make much sense contextually.

多い doesn't really work like a usual adjective in that "多い日本人" can't work to mean "many Japanese people". 多くの is the normal way to express that.

Ah, I think I understand, thanks So it's like you're not modifying "japanese people" to come up with "many japanese people" but rather using 多く to create a "large group of japanese people". Interesting!

FooSoft Wrote:What's the deal with 「多くの」 多く is just adverbial form of 多い but it's here it's being used as a noun/no adjective?

Go figure. That's the way it is.

*多い日本人だ. -> non-sense.
Feels to me like saying "He/she is a numerous Japanese person (!?)".

You'd have to write it like this:

日本人が多い.
多くの日本人がいる.

And the same applies to subclauses:

日本人が多い町だ.
多くの日本人が住む町だ.

Further reading:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2008...%E3%80%8D/
http://nihongodaybyday.blogspot.com/2008...art-3.html

iSoron Wrote:日本人が多い.
多くの日本人がいる.

Those don't mean the same thing, although I'm not sure if you were intending them to

日本人が多い = There are many Japanese people (here).
多くの日本人がいる = Of Japanese people, there are many (here)*
*doesn't make sense in most contexts, what you'd need is something like 日本人が多くいる, which isn't 多くの anyways...

Think of 多くのAはB as meaning "out of all A, many are B".

On an unrelated sidenote, I'm addicted to specialized dictionaries. I bought two this week (one just now on the names for all the little obscure bits and widgets on machinery/objects etc). I avoided the temptation to buy a 四字熟語辞典 and a 類義語使い分け辞典 though, for now. Including my denshijisho's contents I must have nearly 200 different dictionaries now :O

Jarvik7 Wrote:Those don't mean the same thing, although I'm not sure if you were intending them to

I was not really trying to say they're interchangeable, just listing a couple of valid alternatives; but now you've got me curious. Would you care to elaborate a bit on the differences between these:

i. 人が多い場所.
ii. 人が多くいる場所.
iii. 多くの人がいる場所.

They all mean pretty much the same to me.

(edit: nevermind what was here before; got 多くの人が~ and 人の多くが~ mixed up)

また、それが引き金になってしまったのか２年前に働いていた会社でひどい先輩（男性です）にみんなの前で恫喝された事があります。

Why is "のか" used here? I understand everything except....... that.

Hi everyone!
Some sentences that I've suspended during reviews (I don't think I completely grasp the meaning) + some particle questions:

もう一度試してみる価値はある
Just wondering, why is は used instead of が? I thought one used が with existence, i.e.ある?

大丈夫だ、出てみろ
I don't get the 出てみろ thing. The setting is one dude saying to another dude that he'll go (or rather リュウク in Death Note telling ライト that he'll go). I guess it's the imperative form of the てみる grammar, but I really don't understand the subtle change in meaning. I might be completely off, but...

ふん、選んじゃいない
Just a quick question - this means 選んではいない, right? Or?
(Setting: Ryuuku telling Light that he's not a chosen one)

今のどころよくわかっておりません
どころ is the case. Is this the particle どころ or is it just a formal (?) way to say ところ?
(Setting: Reporter talking about a hostage situation. I guess the particle would make sense, but I'm just not sure really)

そんなやりたい放題の連中をよく放っとけるなって思って
Last, but not least (thank you for your patience!) -
よく放っとけるなって思って is the problem here.
(The setting: A friend talking to the lead character of hana yori dango about the bullies at school. Man, that sounded lame...)
I guess that 放っとける is causal for 放っておける, but that doesn't bring me closer to understanding it. Does it mean that she thought (her friend) was able to leave them alone, or something like that? I'm a bit lost...

Thank you guys SO much.
I'm sorry for all the questions, but hopefully some of them are fast and easy to answer =)

Z..

Zorlee Wrote:もう一度試してみる価値はある
Just wondering, why is は used instead of が? I thought one used が with existence, i.e.ある?

"As for X, it exists" isn't a very informative thing to say most of the time for most things, unless the existence of X is in question. If the conversation asks "is there value in...?" and you want to answer that in the affirmative「価値はある。」is the correct form.

Quote:大丈夫だ、出てみろ
I don't get the 出てみろ thing. The setting is one dude saying to another dude that he'll go (or rather リュウク in Death Note telling ライト that he'll go). I guess it's the imperative form of the てみる grammar, but I really don't understand the subtle change in meaning. I might be completely off, but...

Exactly. リュウク is saying "try it and see what happens" with the plain command form.

Quote:ふん、選んじゃいない
Just a quick question - this means 選んではいない, right? Or?
(Setting: Ryuuku telling Light that he's not a chosen one)

Yes, 選んじゃ＝選んでは

This is the ている form with は. I have to admit I have a hard time explaining the use of は and も with verbs, but は and も don't really have special meanings here: は is still an implied contrast: "as for choosing, you're not." It seems to have an active sense here, though: like ライト "isn't choosing" not "isn't chosen."

Maybe someone else can explain this more.

Quote:そんなやりたい放題の連中をよく放っとけるなって思って
Last, but not least (thank you for your patience!) -
よく放っとけるなって思って is the problem here.
(The setting: A friend talking to the lead character of hana yori dango about the bullies at school. Man, that sounded lame...)
I guess that 放っとける is causal for 放っておける, but that doesn't bring me closer to understanding it. Does it mean that she thought (her friend) was able to leave them alone, or something like that?

EDICT gives 「放っとく」its own entry "to leave someone alone," though I agree that it looks like a contraction of 放って置く. That makes 放っとける the short potential.

But, that leaves the mystery of なって. Maybe it's 「…放っとけるな」って Can the short potential have a prohibitory? Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Zorlee Wrote:Hi everyone!
Some sentences that I've suspended during reviews (I don't think I completely grasp the meaning) + some particle questions:

もう一度試してみる価値はある
Just wondering, why is は used instead of が? I thought one used が with existence, i.e.ある?

There's really no hard rule like that; は is used for contrast/limiting/etc. Here it sounds like the speaker has doubts about the success (or whether they will like it?), but thinks it's worth at least trying once.
I really don't understand the subtle change in meaning. I might be completely off, but...

Quote:そんなやりたい放題の連中をよく放っとけるなって思って
Last, but not least (thank you for your patience!) -
よく放っとけるなって思って is the problem here.
(The setting: A friend talking to the lead character of hana yori dango about the bullies at school. Man, that sounded lame...)
I guess that 放っとける is causal for 放っておける, but that doesn't bring me closer to understanding it. Does it mean that she thought (her friend) was able to leave them alone, or something like that? I'm a bit lost...

放っておく is sort of a set phrase meaning "leave alone", so this is the potential of that, and the な is the same as ね (not negative here). A literal translation is something like "I was thinking it was amazing that such a group that does whatever they want would be able to leave her alone." Or something like that.

(Re: 放っておく, the Koujien has a separate entry for おく of そのままにする。そのまま受け入れる。 The example sentences are 「一応聞いておく」, 「言わせておけばつけあがる」, and 「ほっといてくれ」. I don't think that 放る（ほうる） is used much beyond ほっておく, though.

「以上です」って何ですか。
Is it an expression?
Found at the bottom of a Japanese person's forum post in English.

It's sort of like "That's it", or "I'm done".

Not exactly a 'What's this word/phrase?' question, but I really didn't want to start another thread for a potentially silly question but... I was watching 東のエデン and the soundtrack that goes with the closing credits is really weird.

I'm not sure how accurate the lyrics are in the info box, but nevertheless you can hear some weird stuff. The 'b' seems to be consistently pronounced as a 'v' as in shireba (inaccurately transcribed as tomadoi majireba, sounds like tomadoi wa shireba to me) which undoubtedly sounds like shireva. Also the pronunciation of the 'w' is a bit weird, it sounds close to the Dutch 'w' rather than the English 'w'. In standard Japanese the English variant is definitely closer.

I tried finding some interviews with the singer, and there I did not notice any of these weird pronunciations.

Is this some weird stylistic choice to sound more 'foreign' or something? Or is this a realisation of an obscure Japanese dialect I have never heard of?

I got another small point I'd like to clarify about the usage of 限らない。 For example:

「善人が必ずしも成功するとは限らない。」

So what I'm getting out of that is something like:
"The concept of 'good people don't always succeed' is limited"

Ok, but doesn't 限らない work against the theme of the sentence, partially negating the と body? Is this just a set phrase that I shouldn't try to interpret logically?

I'd say the とは限らない/ 'not limited' here is more '... doesn't always happen/isn't always true'. So this would mean basically "good people don't always succeed."

とは限らない seems common enough to me to be considered a set phrase, personally.

albion Wrote:I'd say the とは限らない/ 'not limited' here is more '... doesn't always happen/isn't always true'. So this would mean basically "good people don't always succeed."

とは限らない seems common enough to me to be considered a set phrase, personally.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I kind of meant it in that more abstract limited way (the merit of statement X is limited). Would there be any difference in meaning if the 「とは限らない」were dropped? Is is it adding indirection to make the statement softer?

I think if you dropped it, you'd end up with the complete opposite sentence. All the negating is being done with the とは限らない, so it would be just 'good people always succeed' without it.

Ah, I just looked up 必ずしも again, apparently it can be either "necessarily" or "not necessarily". I see, kind of like 全然 can be used for positive and negative statements. Yeah, so then if 限らない is dropped, it would fall back to the positive form. Makes sense!

Also, watch for double negatives: not necessarily not = it’s possible
それが本当でないとも限らない. It may possibly be true.
この先, もっといい相手にめぐり会わないとも限らない.
There's always the possibility that you'll find someone more suitable in the future.
(from Kenkyusha)

A common phrase is そうとも限らないよ “Not necessarily so.”

Q: Does 必ずしも add any meaning or emphasis to that sentence? I assume it would mean the same thing without it. (“Good people aren’t necessarily successful” and “Good people don’t always succeed” can have slightly different meanings in English, but I’m not sure about in Japanese.)

Thora Wrote:Also, watch for double negatives: not necessarily not = it’s possible
それが本当でないとも限らない. It may possibly be true.
この先, もっといい相手にめぐり会わないとも限らない.
There's always the possibility that you'll find someone more suitable in the future.
(from Kenkyusha)

A common phrase is そうとも限らないよ “Not necessarily so.”

Q: Does 必ずしも add any meaning or emphasis to that sentence? I assume it would mean the same thing without it. (“Good people aren’t necessarily successful” and “Good people don’t always succeed” can have slightly different meanings in English, but I’m not sure about in Japanese.)

You guys are great, thanks

Out of curiosity, in 「それが本当でないとも限らない」 is it intentionally missing a は after 本当で or just a typo? Don't think I've seen that before.

です・だ＝である。The negative of である＝でない。I think である is usually used to express formality, but it's been awhile since I read about it so someone else may need to explain whether or not it comes with a particular kind of nuance.

Thank you guys! =)
Quick question about a Kanzen Master sentence:

国会議員をはじめとする視察団が被災地を訪れた。

Now, I thought I understood the をはじめ grammar, but this sentence threw me off.
Does it mean (something like) "Not only did 国会議員 visit the area that was struck (by whatever), the observation-group did as well." Or (probably more likely): "Starting with 国会議員, the observation-group visited the area struck".
I'm really not sure...

Thanks! =)

zorlee Wrote:国会議員をはじめとする視察団が被災地を訪れた。

"Observers, including Diet members, visited the disaster area." (Or "Diet members and other observers...".)

A,B...をはじめとするY is something like "Y, including A,B... [which I think are important enough to state explicitly or which I think are obvious defining examples of Y]".
Grammar-wise, note that 国会議員をはじめとする is all modifying 視察団, to describe what kind of observers were doing the visiting.

Google Wrote:グーグルをはじめとする、クールだと言われている企業
日本をはじめとするアジア諸国
缶コーヒー、コーラ、果汁などをはじめとするソフトドリンク

KM ought to have a one-sentence attempt to define the meaning of this grammar, but it may not be very useful :-)