yudantaiteki Wrote:Politeness is not a good thing to leave "implied." You do sometimes have to be careful with the terms that indicate giving originating from yourself (あげる、差し上げる、やる) but you should never leave out くれる or くださる with the idea that their meaning is implied. You could also say that "Give me a pencil" implies "Please" before.

Oh, absolutely. I would never be stingy with politeness when requesting something or giving something in the hope that it will be accepted. In the first case a ください is added just as easily as a "please" or "if you would (be so kind)" in English. And in the second case using 差し上げる never hurts, just to be on the safe side.

But that's for direct communication about requesting or giving between just the two people involved, let's call them A and B. When there's a third party involved © to whom the giving or receiving between A and B is reported, I'm a little more fuzzy about how much politeness is required towards someone who isn't even present. Let's say A talks to C about A having requested something from B. Can simple あげる or もらう be used, since party B isn't even present? And what if the absent party B is someone (like a parent or a spouse) in relation to whom great respect is more or less a given: would you still use polite verbs when describing receiving from or giving to an absent person close to you to a third party, or would that be overdoing it?

さわらぬ神にたたりなしだ

Some context:

われわれのウデでまだ。。。あいつら鉄砲ももっているしな。。。さわらぬ神にたたりなしだ

Also what's しな in もっているしな?

learningkanji Wrote:さわらぬ神にたたりなしだ

Some context:

われわれのウデでまだ。。。あいつら鉄砲ももっているしな。。。さわらぬ神にたたりなしだ

Also what's しな in もっているしな?

http://kotowaza-allguide.com/sa/sawaranukami.html

the しな is your normal reason giving し and emotive sentence ending particle な

……ああ　しかたあるまい！
ここは　とおらせてやるわ！
くぅーッ！　かつてキングと
おそれられた　このワシが！
こうも　つづけて　チビどもに
おくれをとるとは…

What's こうも　つづけて?

learningkanji Wrote:さわらぬ神にたたりなしだ

There's an explanation here: http://kotowaza-allguide.com/sa/sawaranukami.html

Basically it's saying don't get involved with a god and it will have no reason to smite you. In the example you gave the speaker is using it to make the point that they shouldn't pick unwinnable fights.

CK_Byuu Wrote:……ああ　しかたあるまい！
ここは　とおらせてやるわ！
くぅーッ！　かつてキングと
おそれられた　このワシが！
こうも　つづけて　チビどもに
おくれをとるとは…

What's こうも　つづけて?

"Continuing in this way." He was once feared as the king but now is falling behind some brats.

splatt Wrote:E.g. In Japanese you might say 田中さんが鉛筆を貸した but it's politer to say 田中さんが鉛筆を貸してくれた。

Eminem2 Wrote:But that's for direct communication about requesting or giving between just the two people involved, let's call them A and B. When there's a third party involved © to whom the giving or receiving between A and B is reported, I'm a little more fuzzy about how much politeness is required towards someone who isn't even present. Let's say A talks to C about A having requested something from B. Can simple あげる or もらう be used, since party B isn't even present? And what if the absent party B is someone (like a parent or a spouse) in relation to whom great respect is more or less a given: would you still use polite verbs when describing receiving from or giving to an absent person close to you to a third party, or would that be overdoing it?

What these auxiliaries represent is sense of benefit. The difference between 田中さんが鉛筆を貸した and 田中さんが鉛筆を貸してくれた is it. The former sounds objective and is something a plot summary in a narrative is likely to say, while a character would say the latter for the same thing.

Edit: 手伝ってあげましょうか？ is less polite than 手伝いましょうか？ because the former is insisting you are beneficial to the opponent.

1. やる means the gift goes away from the possesser of your perspective (not necessarily you), whether you are the giver or not.
2. くれる means the gift approaches to the possesser of your perspective (not necessarily you), whether you are the receiver or not.
3. よこす is a くれる without sense of benefit. Or rather, it has more or less sense of nuisance.
4. もらう means the gift approaches.
5. There are not any verbs that represent "to receive" for outward directions only. In that case, you use 受け取る, which is not direction-oriented nor has sense of benefit. (In practice, もらう is still used, though.) The honorific verbs are made from 受け取る instead of もらう, unless being sarcastic.
6. When the sense of benefit in やる is redundant, you use general わたす instead.
7. General verbs are in nature outward-oriented. When you want to use わたした in-ward, it's 渡してきた. (edit: or use passive voice)

yudantaiteki Wrote:

CK_Byuu Wrote:……ああ　しかたあるまい！
ここは　とおらせてやるわ！
くぅーッ！　かつてキングと
おそれられた　このワシが！
こうも　つづけて　チビどもに
おくれをとるとは…

What's こうも　つづけて?

"Continuing in this way." He was once feared as the king but now is falling behind some brats.

Thanks, got it

Couple blocks of text. There's no real additional context for these.

1.
主人思いなヤツなんじゃあ
あんなこと ワシはたえられん
きっと寂しくてつい...

(I think the second line is "I WILL endure such a thing." No clue on the others).

2.
親と離れることが, どんなに頼りない
ことか, ジョン君ならよくわかるはずじゃあ
でも むやみに探すよりかはあのオヤジの遠眼鏡にまかすんじゃあ

(I think the first two sentences are "Being separated from your parents -- how hopeless. John would understand this well." Not really sure what ことか is doing. I think the last sentence might be something like "But leave the reckless searching up to the old guy's telescope?")

3.
I got a proper translation for this one from someone else, but I had some questions about it:

仲間の物を盗もうとして袋叩きに合うなんて･･･しょうが無い奴だよ。
"We beat up the guy the tried to steal my comrade's stuff... Some people are worthless."

When I first saw this, I thought it said:
"I tried to steal my comrade's stuff and then we beat him up."

Why was my initial interpretation incorrect, and how would you actually say "I tried to steal my comrade's stuff and then we beat him up?"

Saginaim Wrote:Couple blocks of text. There's no real additional context for these.

Of course there is. Where did these come from? Who is speaking these lines? Who is the 主人思いなヤツ they're talking about in the first line? etc. I assume this is either video game text or manga -- one thing you have to get used to with those is that punctuation is not consistently used, so you can't assume the end of a line is the end of a sentence.

Quote:1.
主人思いなヤツなんじゃあ
あんなこと ワシはたえられん
きっと寂しくてつい...

(I think the second line is "I WILL endure such a thing." No clue on the others).

たえられん is "cannot endure". I think the whole thing means something like "[He?She?] is someone who obsesses over his/her master. I wouldn't be able to endure that kind of thing; [he/she] will become sad and then..." [EDIT Correction: As Vihirati says, the last sentence is the speaker, not the 主人思い person.]

Quote:2.
親と離れることが, どんなに頼りない
ことか, ジョン君ならよくわかるはずじゃあ
でも むやみに探すよりかはあのオヤジの遠眼鏡にまかすんじゃあ

(I think the first two sentences are "Being separated from your parents -- how hopeless. John would understand this well." Not really sure what ことか is doing. I think the last sentence might be something like "But leave the reckless searching up to the old guy's telescope?")

The first two lines are one sentence. どんなに頼りない is a modifier for こと, so it means "John should well understand what a hopeless thing it is to be separated from one's parents."

Quote:3.
I got a proper translation for this one from someone else, but I had some questions about it:

仲間の物を盗もうとして袋叩きに合うなんて･･･しょうが無い奴だよ。
"We beat up the guy the tried to steal my comrade's stuff... Some people are worthless."

When I first saw this, I thought it said:
"I tried to steal my comrade's stuff and then we beat him up."

Why was my initial interpretation incorrect, and how would you actually say "I tried to steal my comrade's stuff and then we beat him up?"

I'm not sure either of those interpretations are right -- the 奴 they're talking about is the person described in the first clause. "Trying to steal your friends' stuff and getting beat up by a bunch of people instead -- we can't do anything with you" (the translation of the second part depends on who these people are.)

The なんて at the end of the clause indicates that the speaker is dismissive or insulting to what comes before it. In this case, 合う means to meet a bad or negative situation. So it's not just "we beat someone up", it's that someone has encountered this unfortunate situation of being beaten up by a bunch of people. Since there's no explicit subject change, we assume the stealer and the person who is getting beaten up are the same person. It can't be the speaker because the 奴 at the end refers someone else.

(I'm sure I made some mistakes in here, I'm tired...)

主人思いなヤツなんじゃあ (のだ form): S/he is a person who is loyal to her/his master

きっと: I believe
寂しくて: (I would) be lonely and
つい... : thoughtlessly (do something)

むやみに 探すより(か)(は) あのオヤジの遠眼鏡に まかすんじゃあ (のだ form)
You should leave it to that man's telescope/binocular rather than recklessly searching for it.

viharati Wrote:1. やる means the gift goes away from the possesser of your perspective (not necessarily you), whether you are the giver or not.
2. くれる means the gift approaches to the possesser of your perspective (not necessarily you), whether you are the receiver or not.
3. よこす is a くれる without sense of benefit. Or rather, it has more or less sense of nuisance.
4. もらう means the gift approaches.
5. There are not any verbs that represent "to receive" for outward directions only. In that case, you use 受け取る, which is not direction-oriented nor has sense of benefit. (In practice, もらう is still used, though.) The honorific verbs are made from 受け取る instead of もらう, unless being sarcastic.
6. When the sense of benefit in やる is redundant, you use general わたす instead.
7. General verbs are in nature outward-oriented. When you want to use わたした in-ward, it's 渡してきた. (edit: or use passive voice)

Thanks for such an extensive reply! I'm saving this as a summary for this topic and will be referring back to it often!

(And sorry for replying so late, BTW. I've been otherwise occupied for a while.)

I Wrote:3. よこす has more or less sense of nuisance.

I'm reading it and find it excessive. I'd like to correct it. In a nut shell, a robbery would say 金をよこせ in stead of 金をくれ for "give me money".

Quote:5. (In practice, もらう is still used, though.)

The reverse usage of もらう could be associated with a slight derogatory.

viharati Wrote:

I Wrote:3. よこす has more or less sense of nuisance.

I'm reading it and find it excessive. I'd like to correct it. In a nut shell, a robbery would say 金をよこせ in stead of 金をくれ for "give me money".

Quote:5. (In practice, もらう is still used, though.)

The reverse usage of もらう could be associated with a slight derogatory.

Additional thanks for these clarifications!

(This amount of both scope and details is far in excess of what commercial sites for learning Japanese are willing to supply when requested, BTW. And it's also beyond what a book like "Japanese the Manga Way" offers. Which reminds me, does anyone have any recommendations for a book on grammar that more or less picks up where said book left off? Or is it basically straight on to the grammar dictionaries from hereon in?)

Hello all, i'm new here and started learning Japanese about a month ago.

Now i've been trying to find the best translation for this sentence.

いい天気だなぁ - its a bit like - " good weather today"

見上げれば、眩しい太陽。 - its a bit like - " If i look up i see the dazzling sun." or something in that context
みあげれば、まぶしいたいよう

i'm trying to figure out the right context at the moment so you will probably see more of me in the future
thanks in advance

Vejay Wrote:Hello all, i'm new here and started learning Japanese about a month ago.

Now i've been trying to find the best translation for this sentence.

いい天気だなぁ - its a bit like - " good weather today"

見上げれば、眩しい太陽。 - its a bit like - " If i look up i see the dazzling sun." or something in that context
みあげれば、まぶしいたいよう

i'm trying to figure out the right context at the moment so you will probably see more of me in the future
thanks in advance

Forgive me for any mistakes, for I'm also a beginner, but I believe your translations are accurate. You are looking for a different wording?

I would translate it like:

いい天気だなぁ - What a nice weather!

見上げれば、眩しい太陽。 - When I raise my eyes, [I see] the dazzling sun.

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I need some help with a sentence.

要するに、俺を家庭教師として雇たいって人がいたってことだ。

If someone could help me with a breakdown for the grammar in it, I would be immensely helpful.

"Basically, somebody said they wanted to hire me as a tutor"

要するに In short
として As
~たい Want to~
って Quote/short for という
~ってことだ That means~ (Answer to questions like "What do you mean?")

Thank you so much for the help!
Now it makes sense in the context.

When 行き appears in various words, such as 行き成り, 行き先, 行き過ぎ, etc, should I pronounce them as いき or ゆき？ Is either way fine? Is one of them more formal? Outdated? Does it vary on a word-by-word basis?

いく is the normal pronunciation; the main exception is that it's always ゆく at the end of compounds (except [place]行き). AFAIK ゆく is never strictly speaking wrong (except in 行って/行った), just outmoded.

There are some words where it has to be ゆく (like 行く末) but I think most of the time it's just い.

It just depends on the phrase; 行方 is pretty much always ゆくえ (unless you want to read it as いきがた or ゆきがた for some reason, in which case, either seem to be fine). For 行き方 (いきかた / ゆきかた), it doesn't seem to matter either.

I think it just comes down to what's commonly used by people. Does anyone know if any of these readings are more common in certain regions?

奴隷とは、人間でありながら所有の客体即ち所有物とされる者を言う.

I only kinda understood the "奴隷とは、人間でありながら" . probably something like "Slave, despite being human,..."

and that's about it. I tried using rikai-sama to break down unknown words but still couldn't come u with any sensible sentence.

After doing more research on how to use 即ち (that is; namely; i.e.; 前に述べた事を別の言葉で説明しなおすときに用いる。言いかえれば。つまり) I somewhat managed to make sense of the sentence.

I guess it's something like "Slave, is the word to call a person whom despite being a human, is treated as an object of possession, or in another word as 'Property' " ?

.