ahhh, thanks.

RandomQuotes Wrote:

john555 Wrote:Hi, this one has me stumped. I think the problem for me is the "ろうかなどとも" part in the middle. If the textbook had used kanji where possible that might have helped, but alas.... Thanks in advance.

(Note: 清少納言 is a proper name, Sei Shonagon, a Heian Period "authoress and diarist" from around 1,000 AD).

清少納言ならばこの心持をどんな言葉で表したろうかなどとも思って見るのである。

Pretty much anyone who is studying Japanese is going to know both 清少納言 and 紫式部.

But to break this down

清少納言ならば - Can be an if clause be here, means something like Regarding
この心持を - "these" feelings connects to 表す
どんな言葉で -　By means of どんな言葉
表したろうか - Something akin to "how to express"
など - "and stuff" if'n you want the kanji for this it's 等 or 抔, but the latter is extremely rare.
とも思って見る - I'm not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure that this て見る is attempt to do something, although that usage is usually written in kana
の - Nominalization of the above clause
である。- Written deceleration

Thanks.

After carefully reading about the uses of ka to omou and -te miru etc. I think I've got a possible translation (correct me if I'm wrong):

清少納言ならばこの心持をどんな言葉で表したろうかなどとも思って見るのである。

Translation: "I am going to try to think of for example what words the poet Sei Shonagon would have used to express these feelings."

I have a few questions about the following classical Japanese and modern translation I recently encountered:

「いかなれば立ちもはなれず面影の身にそひながらかなしかるらむ」
(どうして彼女の面影がいつも身に付き添っているのに、私は悲しいのであろうか)

Questions:
1. いかなれば＝であろうか？
2. らむ＝のに？
3. What is the root word for そひながら?

Just for fun, here are my translations of the classical and modern text:
"Why doth I feel such melancholy whilst her face leaves me not?"
(Why do I feel so sad even though her face is always with me?)

Feel free to criticize, discuss, or offer improvements.

This is a poem. いかなれば....らむ is どうして....であろうか; the ば links to the らむ at the end, which is a guess suffix.

そひながら is from 添ふ (modern そう）. ながら here is not the modern "while/during" but means のに.

If you want a better breakdown of the meaning:
いかなれば - どうしてであろうか
立ちもはなれず - （寝ている夢だけではなくて、起きて）立っても離れなくて
面影の - （彼女の）面影が
身にそひながら - 身に付き添っているのに
かなしかるらむ - 悲しいであろうか

vileru Wrote:"Why doth I ..."

'Doth' = 3rd person

anotherjohn Wrote:

vileru Wrote:"Why doth I ..."

'Doth' = 3rd person

You caught me. Even though it's wrong, I used "doth" since I wanted it to sound archaic. You see this happen all the time in modern fantasy TV shows and films. (It makes me wonder if all those NHK period dramas actually use archaic grammar correctly).

@yudantaiteki
Thanks for the helpful grammatical breakdown. On a separate note, I found a website that divided the poem like so:

いかなれば　 (5)
立もはなれずおもかげの (12)
身にそひながらかなしかるらむ (14)

But this looks wrong. Would I be correct to divide it like a 旋頭歌?

いかなれば (5)
立もはなれず (7)
おもかげの身に (7)
そひながら (5)
かなしかるらむ (7)

No, it's a normal waka. The third and fourth lines are おもかげの and then 身にそひながら. So it's 5-7-5-7-7. A sedoka needs a sixth line of 7.

yudantaiteki Wrote:No, it's a normal waka. The third and fourth lines are おもかげの and then 身にそひながら. So it's 5-7-5-7-7. A sedoka needs a sixth line of 7.

あっらら！I always confuse different poem forms. Anyway, isn't a sedoka a form of waka? Hopefully my counting/memory isn't jumbled again, but isn't 5-7-5-7-7 a tanka (another form of waka)?

Yes, tanka and sedoka are both types of waka. (Most waka are tanka, though.)

前に立って指揮をするように手を動かすと,...

I understood:

A hand movement activates the command to stand (?)

Can someone help me breakdown the grammar for 前に立って指揮? I don't understand how 前に fits in the sentence and what is the function of the て-form of 立つ.

Source: http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/easy/k1001539...11000.html

"If you stand in front and move your hands as if you were conducting, the characters (on the screens) will move, and the computer-generated voices will sing the song together."

(The 前に means "in front of (the screens)" and the -te form here is just "and".)

Hi everyone, does the following mean "her relationship with her lover Tsurumatsu":

恋人の鶴松との中を...

Koibito no Tsurumatu to no naka o....

My real question is, is it correct to say that "you can't join two nouns with "to" [other than when "to" means "and"]" so that is why there is a "no" after the "to" above?

(I remember reading about the rule that "you can't joint two nouns with "ni" so the "door to the garden" must be rendered as "the door of the garden"). Maybe this is a similar rule?

Thanks.

You can join two nominals with と; it's very common. You can also join two nominals with に; it's not as common.

と　means something akin to 'and' or 'with'
の　is like 'of'
so との　means something like 'with' [and of)

The grammatical distinction between と and との doesn't really exist in English.

john555 Wrote:Hi everyone, does the following mean "her relationship with her lover Tsurumatsu":

恋人の鶴松との中を...

Koibito no Tsurumatu to no naka o....

Yes.

john555 Wrote:My real question is, is it correct to say that "you can't join two nouns with "to" [other than when "to" means "and"]" so that is why there is a "no" after the "to" above?

I'm a little confused with what you have written, but my guess is that you're confusing 中 (naka-noun/preposition. inside/into) with 仲* (naka-noun. the relationship between people), as in "仲よくする" - to make up with someone. That 仲 is the subject of the sentence, which explains why the 'の' is there (to modify the noun), while the 'と' is there to act as 'with'.

I'm not a huge fan of giving hard-set English meanings to particles, though, and 'と' is one that really doesn't transfer over easily (it has at least 4 or 5 uses). We can use 'with' to capture some of its comparative usage, but try saying "駅と近い" (close to the station) using 'with' instead of 'to'ーit just doesn't work.

john555 Wrote:(I remember reading about the rule that "you can't joint two nouns with "ni" so the "door to the garden" must be rendered as "the door of the garden"). Maybe this is a similar rule?

Not really sure of the rule you might be talking about. コーヒーに牛乳を入れる is okay, and both coffee and milk are nouns there. With doors, you'd probably use 'へ' instead of 'に' 庭への扉, or just 庭の扉. I can't think of any instances where you could use 'にの', so maybe that's what you're thinking of?

'仲' and 'と' can be pretty confusing to work with, but I hope that helped a little, at least.

*仲 gets used in all sorts of phrases, so even though it's a bit clunky when you try to think of an English equivalent, it's a really good one to know.
仲直り・仲のいい・仲良し・仲が悪い, etc. etc.

yudantaiteki Wrote:"If you stand in front and move your hands as if you were conducting, the characters (on the screens) will move, and the computer-generated voices will sing the song together."

(The 前に means "in front of (the screens)" and the -te form here is just "and".)

Thank you so much! Reading this site has been helping me a lot.

FeloniousMonk Wrote:

john555 Wrote:(I remember reading about the rule that "you can't joint two nouns with "ni" so the "door to the garden" must be rendered as "the door of the garden"). Maybe this is a similar rule?

Not really sure of the rule you might be talking about. コーヒーに牛乳を入れる is okay, and both coffee and milk are nouns there. With doors, you'd probably use 'へ' instead of 'に' 庭への扉, or just 庭の扉. I can't think of any instances where you could use 'にの', so maybe that's what you're thinking of?

That's not really joining two nouns since the に is connecting コーヒー to 入れる. I think what john means is that "door to the garden" can't be 庭に扉; as you said にの isn't really used (that I can think of) so you would have to use へ instead.

hi, sorry i have a brief stupid question that I just can't figure out an answer for.

In this piece of text telling the life story of a famous artist, what is the author trying to say with the last bit?

晩年は障害者アートにも取り組み「日本障害者芸術協会会長」をつとめ、前衛芸術家の顔と教育者の両方の顔を持ち、後身の指導にあたった。

I can understand this as:
In his last years he was an advocate for art for the disabled, serving as chairman of the Japanese Art Association for Disabled People. He at once wore both the face of an avant-garde artist and that of a teacher...

but what does the 後身の指導にあたったmean? I have a feeling it's something pithy and simple like his teachings hit the mark.

any and all help is appreciated. thanks!

dtcamero Wrote:but what does the 後身の指導にあたったmean?

any and all help is appreciated. thanks!

It's following on from 教育者の両方の顔を持ち, just saying that he was a teacher of the next generation.

that's beautiful! thanks, I really appreciate it...

Roketzu Wrote:...

also I've come across this strange phrase 「一目虜然」, which i can't find in any dictionaries, online or off. I think it means 'obvious at a single glance' but I would be grateful for a second opinion.

here's a bit of text and my guess at understanding it...

時間の集積を視覚的に表現していることは一目虜然といえよう。

The fact that one can see the visualization of accumulated time is understood at first glance.

dtcamero Wrote:

Roketzu Wrote:...

also I've come across this strange phrase 「一目虜然」, which i can't find in any dictionaries, online or off.

It's supposed to be 一目瞭然, and as you've guessed, it means something is readily apparent or obvious.

Even native speakers don't know whether it's a long or short vowel sometimes, apparently

typo! no wonder... i'll have to keep that in mind as a possibility next time, thanks!

「いろんな人とお話できる方が楽しいだろうと思いたち、 再びお勉強を始めることにしました。」
I understand this sentence, but could someone tell me what the たち is doing on the end of 思い? Also, I feel kind of dumb asking this, but is 方 read as ほう or かた here?

「引用なので引用符をつけることを忘れずに。」
Is the ending of this sentence short for something? Like 忘れずにしておく or something?

HolyKotor Wrote:「いろんな人とお話できる方が楽しいだろうと思いたち、 再びお勉強を始めることにしました。」

It looks like a typo for 思いたら, and 方 is read ほう here. It's really the same contrastive use as the 方がいい structure that most first year texts teach, just with a different adjective.

Quote:「引用なので引用符をつけることを忘れずに。」
Is the ending of this sentence short for something? Like 忘れずにしておく or something?

Without context, I can't say for certain. The two uses that spring to mind is that it may be a sentence inversion; if you can stick it as a modifier in front of the previous sentence to describe how that sentence was carried out, then it's a sentence inversion. Otherwise, it's likely to be an expression of desire or volition, and you could maybe consider a trailing してほしい or しよう to have been omitted, depending on whether it's an instruction to someone else or a description of the author's own actions.