qwertyytrewq Wrote:人[ひと]は 見[み]かけに<b>よらない</b>な。
You can't judge people by their appearance.

Which yoru does the verb to judge come from?

'Judge' is just one way to translate it, but による in this case serves the purpose of indicating something from which you can make a judgement or conclusion on, like 'based on', 'depending on' or 'according to'.

So it's like saying you can't only depend on a person's looks before judging them, or people don't conduct themselves according to/based on how they look, so you can't just judge them on looks alone.

'According to' can also fit another definition which looks similar to による (によると), so it's easy to confuse them.

天気予報によると、明日は雨のち曇りだそうです。

This one is used more to indicate something you've heard externally (the weather report in this case), rather than a decision based on your own judgement.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:人[ひと]は 見[み]かけに<b>よらない</b>な。
You can't judge people by their appearance.

Which yoru does the verb to judge come from?

Not 100% sure I'm right about this, but I've seen this or similar sentences before and I always assumed it was the "be based on, come from, according to, etc." meaning of による.

That is, the positive version of the sentence, an incomplete fragment, 人は見かけによる, would mean something like "people vary according to their appearance..." (this usually appears in によって form). But when you put it in the negative it sounds like "people do not vary according to their appearance." I.e., you can't judge which category they fall in based on their appearance.

(Edit: Looks like CaLeDee beat me to it)

Quote:That is, the positive version of the sentence, an incomplete fragment, 人は見かけによる, would mean something like "people vary according to their appearance..."

That's not a fragment; よる is a normal verb so it can appear at the end of the sentence.

I'm actually very familiar with niyoru as a grammar term (depending on, according to, due to/caused by etc) so it looked very strange to see it negatively conjugated and at the end of the sentence.

Reading the original sentence now, it sounds like "to not depend on a person's appearance".

If it was something like "ni yoru kota ga/wa dekimasen" (a person's appearance cannot be depended on), then it would sound a bit more intuitive to me.

Alternatively, it the actual word for judge was used, then the sentence would feel more complete.

Anyway, I get it now thanks.

yudantaiteki Wrote:That's not a fragment; よる is a normal verb so it can appear at the end of the sentence.

I phrased that badly--fragment is a somewhat technical term and it's not really what I meant. I meant that for some reason that sentence seemed strange to me without something after it (even if it is indeed a complete sentence grammatically). Maybe 人は見かけによるものだ or something. But looking at it now I realize I'm really not sure if one is more natural than the other, especially since in the negative it didn't need anything after it.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:I'm actually very familiar with niyoru as a grammar term (depending on, according to, due to/caused by etc) so it looked very strange to see it negatively conjugated and at the end of the sentence.

Reading the original sentence now, it sounds like "to not depend on a person's appearance".

If it was something like "ni yoru kota ga/wa dekimasen" (a person's appearance cannot be depended on), then it would sound a bit more intuitive to me.

Alternatively, it the actual word for judge was used, then the sentence would feel more complete.

Anyway, I get it now thanks.

Well, "人は見かけによらない" is what could be classified as a ことわざ so it's almost always used in that sense as opposed to "によることができない."

This taken from fleapedia.com (which is a great resource for getting a real feel for how Japanese people themselves interpret words/sayings):

人は見かけによらない（人は見かけによらぬもの）とは、人の本質は外見からだけでは判断できないものだということわざだが、残念ながら大半の人は本質どおりの外観を呈するのであって、外見は乞食だが実は王子様であったというような特殊な状況について、「人は見かけによらぬものだな」などと驚きつつ事実を認めるさいに用いるのがこのことわざでなのである。

Taurus Wrote:Sorry, by nuance, I meant a widely-accepted nuance. ie. is it a widely-used set phrase? Does it have a specific meaning in the context of business jargon/slang?　

Here is the original context though (the narrator is describing a meeting between his company - an ad agency - and another - a lingerie manufacturer):

メーカーの広報と交通広告代理店の営業という職種の違いこそあれ、立場は似たようなものなのだろう。いわゆる「お供の若手」というやつだ。

In case anyone was interested, I solved this. I thought the speaker was comparing the manufacturer and the agency; in fact he is comparing himself and his counterpart in the meeting, and he is saying that although they are just tagging along to accompany their bosses (although he goes on to say that his counterpart is taking a much more active role in the meeting). So I guess there is no real nuance!

Hey all! I started my first VN to commemorate my almost-finishing of Kore 6k (only 10 days left!) That being said, grammar is still kicking my butt. If anyone could help with these sentences, I would be most appreciative.

1) 配置されているキャラがそれぞれの個性により自己主張をし、様々な変化を呼ぶ仕組み。

From I understand: Characters that are arranged each have their own personality...
So, basically, I get everything up to 個性.

2) 攻略できるHPが少ないからと言ってふらふらと油断していると痛い目にあうかまね
BTW, 攻略 refers to a gauge that depletes as your protagonist's relationship improves with each character.
So the sentence means...something about feeling weak？
かもね is short for かもしれない, I think

3)あっというまに攻略できる人もいればじっくりいかないといけない人もいるわね。
No clue
The first part, あっというまに is a set phrase meaning "in a very short amt. of time"
I'm especially confused about the いかないといけない。

Sorry if this is too long! Honestly, I feel a little discouraged - so many strange grammar points when I thought I was doing well understanding my D(s)oJG. Although I guess having everything thrown at you at once is way different from learning it in isolation.

Hi Kuzonoha13, congratulations on your vocab progress. Since it sounds like this is your first time really getting in to native media I just wanted to share some general advice before getting in to the specifics of your questions. Some of it might be obvious or just plain wrong, but hopefully it will be helpful.

Firstly, the language level is obviously going to stay pretty much the same throughout, so the amount you need to make sure you understand before moving on can be drastically reduced. If you move on without understanding something in a textbook you can quickly find yourself getting left behind as it asks more and more of you, but with a VN there's absolutely no reason to think that the next section will be any more difficult than the last, so if something's giving you trouble just make sure you understand enough of the plot to follow what's happening and move on. If you're really stuck you can just move on and hope to pick up on what's happening anyway, but if there is one available I'd recommend you use a translation to fill the gaps, since that will ensure you always know what's happening which will make things much easier and more enjoyable.

Inference also goes a long way towards making something comprehensible, even at the higher levels (I bet even in English you find yourself relying on it, especially in noisy situations). It can be hard starting a new series (let alone a new series set in a culture your not familiar with and told through a medium you've not tried before), because you simply have no idea what to expect anyone or anything to say, but as you learn more about the plot, characters and setting (not to mention the writer's personal lexicon and idiosyncrasies), things will get a lot easier.

Finally, most difficult sentences are difficult because they contain multiple "easy" things that you still haven't quite got the hang of yet. Your brain can only cope with so much at one time so trying to parse a sentence containing multiple words/grammar points you're not completely comfortable with can be like trying to scoop your eyes out with a too small spoon, but as you get more practice with their component parts, these sentences will also start to fall in to place. This is another reason not to waste time on things you can't understand.

Okay, on to your actual questions:

1) 配置されているキャラがそれぞれの個性により自己主張をし、様々な変化を呼ぶ仕組み。
(This game is) designed in such a way that each of the characters spread (throughout this world) have their own personal traits through which they assert their individuality and undergo various changes. 　I think 呼ぶ is probably a typo here?

3)あっというまに攻略できる人もいればじっくりいかないといけない人もいるわね。
While there are people people you can capture almost instantly, there are also those with whom you must go slowly.
I think think the 攻略 meter is being used as a countdown to say that the more you get someone to like you the closer you are to "capturing" them.
いかない＝行かない = Not go
じっと行かない　＝　Not go slowly/carefully
いけない　＝　Bad/unacceptable
Xといけない＝　It's unacceptable to do X
じっといかないといけない　= It's unacceptable to not go slowly.

2) 攻略できるHPが少ないからと言ってふらふらと油断していると痛い目にあうかもね
I'm not really sure about this one since it seems to be talking about game mechanics which I know nothing about, but...
You might get in trouble if you say, "I can capture them because their HP is low" and thoughtlessly let your guard down.

Sorry this ended up so long. Hopefully you think it's worth reading anyway.

I've never played one of these games, which makes the context a bit hard for me, but I think it's something like:

1) 配置されているキャラがそれぞれの個性により自己主張をし、様々な変化を呼ぶ仕組み。
(It's a) structure in which the characters who appear act according to their individual personality and cause various changes.

2) 攻略できるHPが少ないからと言ってふらふらと油断していると痛い目にあうかまね
You mustn't be lazy and negligent just because your 'ability to capture' gauge is low--things might not turn out well for you.

3)あっというまに攻略できる人もいればじっくりいかないといけない人もいるわね。
There are people you can 'capture' quickly and easily, and others which you must treat very carefully.

I didn't try to make the English match up closely with the Japanese, nor did I spend a long time thinking about it, so I may have misinterpreted something or other

(Edit: Splatted beat me to it)

Splatted Wrote:I think 呼ぶ is probably a typo here?

or an idiom

Thanks DrDunlap I wasn't aware of that.

Tzadeck's version of 2 also seems much more likely than mine.

Edit: Or maybe "the amount of HP you can capture"?

Thanks for the tips! I did go through about a dozen volumes of Yotsuba&. It wasn't too hard, but I think that it's generally agreed upon to be on the easier side of things. This is proving to be more of a challenge, but the trade-off is that I'll (hopefully) learn a bit more. I also found a few items covered in the Dictionary of Advanced Grammar, which I had initially underestimated for not being as useful as the previous two (at the time). But it's probably worth it now to go back over it. I think what Splatted said about having multiple small things add up is an accurate explanation of my experience right now. But thanks to everyone for the translations, they've been very helpful.

Best word for "Oi, stop hitting each other!" (I'm a teacher, this comes up a lot)?

Off the top of my head I can think of:

たたく
打つ　「ぶつ」
打つ　「うつ」
当てる

Not really sure which is most appropriate for a 7 year old kid smacking another?

なぐる, maybe?

Had a chat with the girlfriend who is normally absolute crap at explaining things:

たたく - tap, hit, generally not a serious strike
ぶつ - hit, punch, smack used with people
うつ - hit, collide with, smack/bump into, used of inanimate objects (e.g. "the rain is pounding on the roof")
当てる - to strike somebody with something else, from a pen right up to a car
殴る - to punch or smack very hard

She said it's probably best to go with たたく or ぶつ. In case you ever had to break up a fight and scold the kids afterward. Hah.

What does 上り電車 mean, and in what ways is it used? There's a Core sentence これは上り電車です, that's translated "this train is going downtown".

I'm officially dumbfounded.

Naguru is punching like in a fight. So if they're punching you can say that

Tataku is hit
You could also say 手を出すな it has the other meaning about being violent besides the literal meaning which is also a valid use of this phrase
You could say 暴力は something

You could just say やめろ やめて おとなしくしろinstead of being specific

Stansfield123 Wrote:What does 上り電車 mean, and in what ways is it used? There's a Core sentence これは上り電車です, that's translated "this train is going downtown".

I'm officially dumbfounded.

I think it's just Tokyo-bound train, both 上り and 下り can be used to mean something like "up-town" and "down-town" (respectively) bound train/bus.

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:Naguru is punching like in a fight. So if they're punching you can say that

Tataku is hit
You could also say 手を出すな it has the other meaning about being violent besides the literal meaning which is also a valid use of this phrase
You could say 暴力は something

You could just say やめろ やめて instead of being specific

Yeah, my usual go-to is やめなさい or just 何々はだめ but sometimes I need to be specific, especially when they like to pretend they didn't do anything. I hadn't heard of 手を出す, I'll try that out and see if I get any funny looks. Thanks!

afterglowefx Wrote:

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:Naguru is punching like in a fight. So if they're punching you can say that

Tataku is hit
You could also say 手を出すな it has the other meaning about being violent besides the literal meaning which is also a valid use of this phrase
You could say 暴力は something

You could just say やめろ やめて instead of being specific

Yeah, my usual go-to is やめなさい or just 何々はだめ but sometimes I need to be specific, especially when they like to pretend they didn't do anything. I hadn't heard of 手を出す, I'll try that out and see if I get any funny looks. Thanks!

You'd probably get a confused look or two..
手を出す has the nuance of starting or getting involved so it would be odd to use after they'd already started smacking each other. If they aren't actually punching each other then たたく is the precise verb you want. 喧嘩するな works too, of course. For those general fighty times.

afterglowefx Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:What does 上り電車 mean, and in what ways is it used? There's a Core sentence これは上り電車です, that's translated "this train is going downtown".

I'm officially dumbfounded.

I think it's just Tokyo-bound train, both 上り and 下り can be used to mean something like "up-town" and "down-town" (respectively) bound train/bus.

Just to clarify:
下り電車 - train going from the city center
上り電車 - train going towards the city center (downtown) (I guess this one is counter-intuitive...)

Inny Jan Wrote:

afterglowefx Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:What does 上り電車 mean, and in what ways is it used? There's a Core sentence これは上り電車です, that's translated "this train is going downtown".

I'm officially dumbfounded.

I think it's just Tokyo-bound train, both 上り and 下り can be used to mean something like "up-town" and "down-town" (respectively) bound train/bus.

Just to clarify:
下り電車 - train going from the city center
上り電車 - train going towards the city center (downtown) (I guess this one is counter-intuitive...)

So this is Tokyo-only, or is it used in any city?

here's the quote from anime called kingdom

"一人も生かしちゃ帰さねえ！ 一人もだ！"

the sub translates it as
"I won't let one of them go back alive! Not a single one!"

The part I don't understand is "生かしちゃ帰さねえ". What grammar is used? I completed tae kim grammar but I still couldn't get the hang of spotting grammars in real examples.

help is greatly appreciated

"kaesanee" is the "tough"/slangy version of "kaesanai", which is the negative form of the verb "kaesu" = "to let someone return". You are probably familiar with the verb "kaeru" = "to return"; "kaesu" is the transitive version of that verb.

"ikashicha" is slang for "ikashite". "Ikasu", in this context, means "to let live" (it's the transitive version of "ikiru" = "to live").

(Sorry for the romaji; in the office without a Japanese IME.)

Edit: I wrote originally that "ikashicha" was "ikashite shimau"; that was a mistake. Apologies.