corry Wrote:ごめんなさい軽い気持ちで入部するなんて書いたから期待させるだけさせて何て謝ったらいいか

What is させて doing there.

Even with magamo's great post I couldn't wrap my head around させるだけさせて
2 させる‘s　in a row.

Asked my tutor for help and she gave me some ex sentences.

If I would literally translate it "let me/you do as much as you let me do".
Wouldn't say it like that in English but seems like it's for stress on let me/you do (させる）。
Surprised it's not a jlpt grammar point as it's apparently very common.

example sentences:
期待する 期待させる
ハワイに連れて行ってあげると期待させるだけさせる
彼は私にハワイに連れて行ってあげると期待させるだけさせといて、実際は他の友達とハワイに行った。
飲む 飲ます
飲ますだけのます
友人は私に(ビールを)飲まして酔っ払わすだけ酔っ払わしておいて、後は何の介抱もない。
急ぐ 急がす
急がすだけ急がす
部長はこのレポートの作成を急がすだけ急がせておいて、未だレポートは社長に提出されていない。
働く 働かせる
働かせるだけ働かせる
あの会社は10時間働かせるだけ働かせておいて、何の賃金支払いがない。
テストを受ける テストを受けさす
テストを受けさすだけ受けさす あの学校はテストを受けさすだけ受けさせておいて、テストの結果報告をしない。
料理をする 料理をさせる
料理をさせるだけさせる
ご主人様はメイドに料理をさせるだけさせておいて、その料理を全然食べていない。

There's nothing special about させる here. It's called 使役動詞, and it is a notorious concept that is painfully obvious to the Japanese but very difficult to explain to learners whose native language doesn't have it. But if you already know what they basically mean, you can treat them exactly the same way in the (verb)+だけ+(て-form of verb)+(clause about expected action neglected) structure.

The example sentences you got from your tutor all entail certain actions that should've done by the doer of the first actions. The first action just happened to be the kind of thing that can be roughly translated as "let X do," "have X do," "make X do," etc. because that's the meaning of させる.

If you're still confused, the (verb)+だけ+(て-form of verb)+(clause about expected action neglected) structure is often used to express your frustration. The negative emotion is of course due to the fact that the expected second action was neglected. Your tutor seems to have given only examples of this type.

But obviously the original sentence in corry's question isn't about the speaker's frustration about not joining the club. It's saying that joining the club is something that had to be done but the speaker didn't keep the promise. It is emphasizing the sense of "should've done it but didn't." So, in this case, it's more like the sense of apology/regret, rather than frustration, that is emphasized. Since it's a structure to make the expectation explicit, you can use it in a joke to draw attention to the unexpected "didn't follow through" consequence, for example. The most typical use may be to express the speaker's frustration, though.

Also, JLPT or whatever doesn't call grammar rules basic because they are common. They say so when it's easier for them to teach. The easier to explain through translation etc., the more basic they claim a rule is.

If you doubt it, can you explain why native speakers use "advanced" grammar and don't really follow "basic" rules you learn? If your tutor ranked importance or whatever according to frequency, this nonsense wouldn't happen. Typical native speakers' speech would be full of basic stuff with a tiny amount of advanced stuff if they taught you truly basic stuff first and rare things later.

But is their policy really "easy-to-teach" first? Think why learners agree that "advanced" stuff is more difficult. It isn't hard because it's rare. It's hard to learn by following their method because it's the kind of thing who teaches it calls "advanced." Have you ever thought about why people who immerse themselves into native material tend to master "advanced" grammar rules before they do "basic" ones? This is certainly oversimplification. But I think you get the idea.

magamo Wrote:

Growl Wrote:What's this dialect? (It's dialect right?)

心配せんといてね
don't worry about me

Sounds like a variant of a dialect spoken somewhere in mid-western Japan. If it were the typical Kansai (or Osaka) dialect, it would be 心配せんといてな. It sounds like a mix of this dialect and another dialect spoken somewhere in Estern Japanese. There might be a region where your sentence is the most common version, though. Also, younger native speakers might find this form more natural than older generations do.

In any case, the ね version is not what I would normally say when talking to people from Osaka (I was born and raised there). But I'm pretty sure I said exactly the same sentence more than once without knowing it when I was living in Kanto.

Edit: By the way, when I use the mixed version, I keep the pitch accent of the Osaka dialect. I read it in my head this way too.

How about this one ?
心配せんといてんかー

Seems similar to the other ones but why the か？　

socrat Wrote:How about this one ?
心配せんといてんかー

Seems similar to the other ones but why the か？　

Sounds like a typical phrase some people from Osaka or somewhere nearby would say when they get annoyed. It's not "never mind." It's more like "none of your business." If it was preceded by 余計な as in 余計な心配せんといてんか, it's got to be it. I can easily imagine my mom says exactly this. But somehow it's a bit odd if dad says it this way. He's younger than her, but not much. I don't know why I feel this way. I don't think I would use this phrase, nor does my brother. Oh, wait. He does. So it's probably not specific to a gender or generation. It certainly sounds like the Kansai dialect though.

A woman is deciding what bento to buy to his guy. Another guy comes in and says:
いいじゃない、そんなに隠さなくったって

I was expecting そんなに隠さなくてもいい. What is that った in there?

EDIT: Yeah, she's like she thinks she's hiding the fact she's caring about that it's obvious so everyone notices.

Growl Wrote:A woman is deciding what bento to buy to his guy. Another guy comes in and says:
いいじゃない、そんなに隠さなくったって

I was expecting そんなに隠さなくてもいい. What is that った in there?

EDIT: Yeah, she's like she thinks she's hiding the fact she's caring about that it's obvious so everyone notices.

It's a variant of auxiliary verb た that adds the sense of completion. If you want to skip the grammatical explanation, probably the simplest way to understand it is this:

いいじゃない、そんなに隠さなくても。(A more grammatically "proper" way to say it)

いいじゃない、そんなに隠さなくたって。(A colloquial version of the same thing)

いいじゃない、そんなに隠さなくったって。(Even more colloquial version)

The last two may be inappropriate in formal writing, although いいじゃない is already too casual in the first place. In normal everyday speech, I think I almost always use the last one.

A formal explanation is that it is a combination of た (完了助動詞) + とて (接続助詞) with a phonetic bent on each portion. The sound change from た to った (the first phonetic bent) is not completely accepted by everyone while the other change from とて to って is normal. If anything, とて sounds like classical Japanese or very formal language. "たって" should be treated as a single word in a decent monolingual Japanese dictionary.

This combination works as an adversative conjunction expressing a hypothetical condition. English doesn't have a conjunction that carries the same sense, so typically word-for-word translation into English fails if this word is used. In any case, そんなに隠さなくてもいい is close enough except that this doesn't carry the sense of じゃない.

From dinner:

Guy says to the manager: 支配人にお電話です
Manager: どちらさまから？
Guy: テレビ局の方だと｡

What is the part that is omitted that would come after the だと?

Growl Wrote:From dinner:

Guy says to the manager: 支配人にお電話です
Manager: どちらさまから？
Guy: テレビ局の方だと｡

What is the part that is omitted that would come after the だと?

It's "The person on the other side of the phone says..."

あ〜分かった！

As ever, Magamo, thanks for your help here. If you don't mind another Q...

magamo Wrote:ごめんなさい。軽い気持ちで入部するなんて書いたから、期待させるだけさせて、何て謝ったらいいか。

If you need to parse the whole thing within some limited prescriptive grammar (e.g., grammar tested in a standardized test), the best way to parse it may be to see it as a sequence of three incomplete sentences each of which has an omitted clause. In real life, the whole thing including ごめんなさい can be said in one breath as if it's a single sentence, which it is. But for the sake of easy parsing,
[...]
The whole sentence you gave can be understood as a series of "incomplete" sentences phrased more naturally than rigid grammar allows so that it sounds like something native speakers would say in real life rather than obviously contrived "proper" wording.

It can be useful to imagine missing bits (to figure out meaning or structure), but I'm not sure I understand why this sentence wouldn't just be covered by classroom grammar as one normal sentence? Does it sound like an acceptable-but-not-textbook sentence to native ears?

て： [bad thing]して、　[apology]
Having done [bad thing], I must apologize.
～Vたから: [bad thing] = [cause]したから、[result]
left you with false hopes by carelessly mentioning
that you'd be admitted as a member.

Does this learner's sentence - その客は文句を言うだけ言って、帰って行ったよ - have the sense "did nothing but complain, then left." (ie too much complaining) or "just complained, then left." (ie we're lucky he only complained and didn't phone the police.)

btw, Isn't it 用言　rather than 体言 (since they're verbs)? だけ might be the noun-ish だけ　since it's modified by 終止形　(like clauseだけだ). (Then again, since it's idiomatic, maybe it doesn't have to make sense grammatically.)

Thora Wrote:It can be useful to imagine missing bits (to figure out meaning or structure), but I'm not sure I understand why this sentence wouldn't just be covered by classroom grammar as one normal sentence? Does it sound like an acceptable-but-not-textbook sentence to native ears?

It sounds like an acceptable run-on sentence that wouldn't appear in formal writing but is fine in daily conversations.

Before all the details, you need a verb or some equivalent word to make "何て謝ったらいいか" a complete sentence. What's lacking is obviously 分からない or one of its variations. So, at least this portion is an incomplete sentence, although you could say 何て謝ったらいいか分からない is so idiomatic and frequent you don't need to finish it.

Now, 期待させるだけさせて、何て謝ったらいいか分からない may be seen as a grammatically correct complete sentence, where "何て謝ったらいいか分からない" is the clause that normally follows the するだけして structure. If you interpret it this way, what is expected to happen is "I know how I should apologize," which isn't what the speaker means here. What the speaker is saying is that she made others believe she'd join the club, but didn't after all, so she's deeply sorry. The clause that usually follows after 期待させるだけさせて to make it a complete sentence is something that corresponds to the "didn't after all" part. Making others believe something doesn't really lead to "apology." So there's a logical leap if you interpret the sentence this way. So it is actually a run-on sentence of some sort that is composed of two incomplete sentences (or one incomplete sentence and a fixed phrase 何て謝ったらいいか if you will).

The same goes for 軽い気持ちで入部するなんて書いたから + 何て謝ったらいいか (分からない). This combination may be seen as a complete sentence. But the reason the speaker is sorry is that she didn't join the club. It's not because she said she was going to join them, although this interpretation isn't entirely impossible. What's really strange about this interpretation is that it doesn't flow well as a whole; you just don't say 〜だから、何と謝れば良いか分からない as a straightforward complete sentence when you're apologizing. It would sound like being rude or suffering autism or something so you're overly logical. When you're really sorry, you wouldn't say, "Because I did this, I'm sorry." You may say, "I'm sorry that I did this," "I'm sorry for this," and the like. But you don't say "the reason I'm sorry is that I did this" when you apologize. If you say "because" or something, it should be like, "Because I did this..., I'm sorry," where the "..." implies the bad thing you caused because you did something, i.e., it's more like "Because I did this, (you're in trouble). I'm sorry."

You may interpret 軽い気持ちで入部するなんて書いたから、期待させるだけさせた as a complete sentence. I think this can be within the range of grammatically correct and acceptable interpretations. But it still sounds like 軽い気持ちで入部するなんて書いたから、期待させた (which is a perfectly acceptable complete sentence) with the させるだけさせる structure attached to it, resulting in a run-on-ish sentence. But maybe it's acceptable.

Taking all this into account, the most natural interpretation is that it's an acceptable run-on-ish sentence that is a combination of three incomplete sentences: i.e., with proper punctuation, the intended meaning is

軽い気持ちで入部するなんて書いたから……　期待させるだけさせて……　何て謝ったらいいか……

I googled the sentence, and it seems like taken from anime or something. Some transcripts you can find online punctuate it exactly this way. So, at least one person interpreted it the same way as I did. In any case, if corry or someone can give me a link to a video of the exact scene, I might be able to tell from how the actor delivers the line.

Thora Wrote:て： [bad thing]して、　[apology]
Having done [bad thing], I must apologize.
～Vたから: [bad thing] = [cause]したから、[result]
left you with false hopes by carelessly mentioning
that you'd be admitted as a member.

I don't understand what you mean here. But I hope I answered your question...

Thora Wrote:Does this learner's sentence - その客は文句を言うだけ言って、帰って行ったよ - have the sense "did nothing but complain, then left." (ie too much complaining) or "just complained, then left." (ie we're lucky he only complained and didn't phone the police.)

The first interpretation is fine, but the second one is not.

Another way to explain the 〜するだけして〜しない kind of sentence is "to do A to the extent that doing B is expected, but the doer of A didn't B." If I were to make your example sentence flow better, it'd be something along the line of その客は文句を言うだけ言って、何も買わずに帰って行ったよ. Your version is already fine though because it's obvious what you mean. It'd be extremely pedantic to say the first half and the second half don't match.

Also, you may already know this, but だけ here doesn't mean "only." It's something different from the usual "only" kind of だけ as in その客は文句を言うだけだった。

"too much complaining" isn't far off, and that's probably what happened anyway. But I think the literal sense is more like along the line of "to complain to the extent that you'd think he should be a paying customer (but actually he isn't) (or he didn't buy anything when he complained a lot)." I think most of the time it naturally entails a connotation of "a lot," "too much" or something along those lines, though.

If the first action always entails a naturally expected action regardless of its extent, this "a lot" sense is virtually nonexistent. Or you could say a nonzero amount of the first action is already a lot. An example is:

質問するだけしておいて、後は完全放置。(referring to the kind of situation where a new member posts a question on an online forum, and never comes back, e.g., he posted the same question on multiple forums, got an answer on one of them quickly, and completely ignores the rest of the forums, so people on the other forums think he's a rude person who just asks a question and never leaves a word even after he got replies.)

In this case, he may have asked only one question, and it can be short. It's totally expected for him to come back. But he's gone forever. Maybe you can say a short question is enough to evoke the sense of "a lot," "too much" etc., I guess.

Also, English word "when" sometimes behaves in a similar way, as in "He didn't come when he's the one who said we should come here," where the word "when" isn't really neutral and carries the sense of "there's a discrepancy between what was expected and what actually happened." When you say "when," you imply "he should've come." The translation of this sentence can be ここに集まれって言うだけ言って自分は来ない, although I think ここに集まれって言っておきながら自分は来ない is closer in that 言うだけ言って sounds like the situation is like it's really unbelievable he didn't come. For example, it is a very difficult thing to go to the place, so he really should've come when others came all the way. Or maybe he sounded like saying, "it is our duty to meet there!" Note that the "when" in the "so he really should've come when others came all the way" is also the same kind, but in this case the doers of the two actions are different ("he" and "others"), so it isn't really similar to 〜するだけして〜だ; the Japanese version requires that the doer of the expected action is the same as that of the first action.

Thora Wrote:btw, Isn't it 用言　rather than 体言 (since they're verbs)? だけ might be the noun-ish だけ　since it's modified by 終止形　(like clauseだけだ). (Then again, since it's idiomatic, maybe it doesn't have to make sense grammatically.)

Oops. Thanks. I fixed the post.

Ah, I see. Thank　you! I had actually misinterpreted it as the speaker apologizing for having telling someone they could join and then reneging on that invitation. (got stuck on my first impression, I guess, even though する seemed a bit odd.)

Thanks also for that other example and explanation. The subtle differences b/w ここに集まれって言うだけ言って自分は来ない and ここに集まれって言っておきながら自分は来ない isn't something I would grasp.

You don't need to respond to anything here. I ended up writing what seems more like 'notes to myself', but I'll post it in case anyone else was curious about this sentence.

Quote:Making others believe something doesn't really lead to "apology." So there's a logical leap if you interpret the sentence this way.

I was indeed thinking that someone would apologize for having misled or disappointed someone (it being mutually understood that the promised action didn't happen and is the source of the disappointment.)

I'm sorry that I led you on by hinting that we would marry. (obviously didn't marry)
I'm sorry that I misled you by saying I would join when I wasn't really serious.
(obviously didn't join)
軽い気持ちで入部するなんて書いて　期待させるだけさせて　ごめんなさい。(?)

But I can see that I'm tweaking the English a bit to sound normal and the sentence as worded is more a succession of utterances. I can feel its run-on quality, but not that anythings missing for the apology. That elusive intuition. sigh...

Quote:[re:その客は文句を言うだけ言って、帰って行ったよ.] Your version is already fine though because it's obvious what you mean. It'd be extremely pedantic to say the first half and the second half don't match.

It's a teaching example ......good thing grammar teaching isn't too pedantic. My thinking was that if Aするだけして　conveys the implication that some B didn't occur, B needn't be explicit stated. If that implication isn't wanted, Aして　alone can work . So I thought B could be as easily inferred in the apology sentence. I think I get the difference now.

Quote:Also, you may already know this, but だけ here doesn't mean "only."

Yup, it was my attempt to indirectly convey a sense of 'not doing action B' by using 'just complains' or 'nothing but complains'. It's a weird one to translate, isn't it.

@socrat: Thanks for the examples. The combination of explanation and examples is perfect.

What is that たら after 思って, is that equivalent to 思ったら?

メールしたと思ってたら、送れてなかった

It's 思っていたら, the い in -te iru is often contracted. (This is also a common use of たら that is not conditional, it just means "When I was thinking...")

Another dictionary question:

や‐しょく【夜食】
１ 夕食後、夜遅くなってから食べる簡単な食事。《季 秋》

What does 《季 秋》 mean?

Notice that 季 is bolded.

It means it's an autumn 季語, for composing haiku/waka.

Stian Wrote:Another dictionary question:

や‐しょく【夜食】
１ 夕食後、夜遅くなってから食べる簡単な食事。《季 秋》

What does 《季 秋》 mean?

Notice that 季 is bolded.

季 (き) means season and 秋 (あき) is autumn. Therefore I'd say it's a seasonal word relating to autumn.

EDIT: yudantaiteki beat me to it...

あ〜 そうかそうか、ありがとう

Oh, thanks to the both of you.

Does that mean anything outside poetry? Or would it be strange to eat 夜食 on a summer evening? :p

Is it いいだと思う or いいと思う, it seems is the first one, but isn't いい an い形容詞? What am I missing?

A more interesting question:

From dinner:

Someone is complaining because of a change of plans in the menu. The part I don't understand is bold.
向こうがやれっつってるからやってんだろ こっち！

Growl Wrote:Is it いいだと思う or いいと思う, it seems is the first one, but isn't いい an い形容詞? What am I missing?

If you're talking about something along the line of "Looks fine to me," it's いいと思う.

Growl Wrote:Someone is complaining because of a change of plans in the menu. The part I don't understand is bold.
向こうがやれっつってるからやってんだろ

You can understand it as a coloquial version of と言っている. More specifically, the first half っつって is a very informal version of と言って, and you can skip い in ~ている in an informal situation. So you get っつってる from と言っている.

I can't figure out the meaning of っていうか here based on the "or rather; or better; perhaps I should say; or, how should I put it; I mean" っていうか from common dictionaries.

何か俺だけちょっと違うっていうかさ みんなとは

Growl Wrote:何か俺だけちょっと違うっていうかさ みんなとは

It seems pretty straightforward, I don't understand the point of confusion.
It reads to me like,
"Maybe you could say there's something a little different about me. Compared to everyone else."

「疲労感なのか、悲壮感なのか、くたびれた影のようなものが額から首にかけてかかっている。」

I'm looking for a translation on this. Having a bit of a hard time understanding it as a whole. "She wore a sense of fatigue or patheticness that made her resemble a tired silhouette."