Blank Wrote:This one has me very puzzled. In あずまんが大王 (highly recommended if you haven't read it BTW), an injured cat is taken to the vet. The vet says, "体力的に衰弱しとるけど大丈夫だよ。"

Seems simple enough, but what's the しとる all about? I've think I've seen that a few places (most likely earlier in the same manga) and have never been able to figure out what it means.

Quick Google search, no idea if it's correct, but makes sense: http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:iZ1D...clnk&gl=us

しとる＝している

We use something similar in Kobe too but mostly in the past form i.e. 昨日なにしとったん？
俺もそう思っとったけど、やっぱちゃうな。

Or maybe they're not related at all.

That does make sense. Thanks!

Yeah, おる　seems to replace いる in many dialects. Not to mention, the slurring of a て followed by an お sound is seen commonly even in standard Japanese, mostly from the て + おく pattern.

The いる-->おる thing certainly happens in Kansai-ben (as the above mentioned about Kobe). In fact, いらっしゃいます even becomes おられます (though, people avoiding using Kansai-ben in polite language with people not from the area).

Directly from 花より男子:

中産階級のババアが作った メシだってことぐらいよ！

I don´t think I grasp the different variations of だって. Is this a だということ abbreviation, だった, or a って thing?
What can I do to tell the difference? Any hot tips?

Thanks!

I'm reading a review of a game called "勇者３０" here and I have been bashing my head against this sentence for some time now:

各アクションを行なうのに制限時間は特に設定されていないものが多い。

制限時間は設定されていない I guess would mean something like "there is no set time limit", but how should I interpret the 特に here?

The ものが多い at the end I guess is a variation of the ことがある pattern, so something like "There are lots of times when...". Am I right?

I'm also not sure how to link the first sentence to the second so that it would make sense. "For performing each action..."?

I'm trying to avoid translating this too literally, but it's just not clicking for me.

kono geemu wa kou yatte asobimasu.

Can someone enlighten me regarding the kou yatte?

lanval Wrote:kono geemu wa kou yatte asobimasu.

Can someone enlighten me regarding the kou yatte?

こうやって
(conj) thus; in this way

shang Wrote:I'm reading a review of a game called "勇者３０" here and I have been bashing my head against this sentence for some time now:

各アクションを行なうのに制限時間は特に設定されていないものが多い。

Looks like you already have it. I think of it as:
Many RPG games don't have specific time limits for performing each action. or
As for time limits for performing each action, there are often no set limits.

Having just described the benefits of being free to explore at leisure typical of RPG games, he then goes on contrasts that with the 30 second time limit imposed in the "勇者３０" game being reviewed.

特に　is translated variously as especially, particularly, in particular, specifically, etc depending on the sentence. Here, setting "specific" time limits sounds OK to me.

I see Thora has beaten me to the meat of the answer, so I'll just pick up on this point:

Quote:The ものが多い at the end I guess is a variation of the ことがある pattern, so something like "There are lots of times when...". Am I right?

もの in this context is referring to RPGs, so something like "in many games..." would be closer. (もの tends to refer to tangible things and こと to intangibles; I thinkことがある is a bit of a red herring here.)

Zorlee Wrote:Directly from 花より男子:

中産階級のババアが作った メシだってことぐらいよ！

I don´t think I grasp the different variations of だって. Is this a だということ abbreviation, だった, or a って thing? What can I do to tell the difference?

I see this as だ　ということ　abbreviation. btw ということ　is an extremely common phrase that gets added to sentences in ways that wouldn't be translated into anything in English. It's often to soften it or make it more indirect.

だった　is the past of だ　and wouldn't be changed to だって.

Not sure what you mean by って　thing. って　is often used as a shortened という. You'll also see it used the place you'd expect a は　or が　maker. You might think of that as "speaking of",　or "so called" (sometimes with a negative connotation). It's also used on it's own to casually start a sentence: って、というか、　ってか、　etc. But I'm not the person to ask about slang use - there may be other って　things.

People also start sentences with　だって. It kinds provides a smoother lead in or connection to what went before. While it might literally have the sense of "that being so", "that being said", "that being the case", I think people use it more as just filler expression.

There's also the pattern だって...から　where the pair have the sense of because.

[fixed typo: first ということ　was といること]

I have this in my notes, not sure where I got it from or why it's there, lol...

だって

In informal speech, hearsay is often reported in the following manner:
...(ん)ですって (female speakers only) [...(ん)だって informal]
...って (Someone) said that... [って here is a variant of the quote marker と]
e.g. 林さんの話によると, 明日しけんがないって
- I heard from Mr. Hayashi that there won't be an exam tomorrow
e.g. 林さんが新しいステレオをかったんだって - I heard Mr. Hayashi bought a new stereo

AさんはXだと言って私はYと思いました。 Mr A said X, and so I thought Y.
If you shorten this process, the だって has two common meanings apart from the one above:
"According to Mr A..."
or
"...I thought/I was lead to believe"

The dictionary and Japanese the Manga Way also have uses such as what Thora described, or " 'cause " (PL2 'because' at beginning of sentence) or similar to も/"also" in other cases...

Specifically:
だって、忙しいもの。(DOBJG?)
父さんだって酔ってるじゃありませんか。(JMW)

pm215 Wrote:もの in this context is referring to RPGs, so something like "in many games..." would be closer. (もの tends to refer to tangible things and こと to intangibles; I thinkことがある is a bit of a red herring here.)

Thanks! I somehow missed this altogether, even though I'm aware of the difference between もの and こと. Now it makes a lot more sense.

Zorlee Wrote:Directly from 花より男子:

中産階級のババアが作った メシだってことぐらいよ！

I don´t think I grasp the different variations of だって. Is this a だということ abbreviation, だった, or a って thing?
What can I do to tell the difference? Any hot tips?

Thanks!

That punctuation is a little confusing. It should be something like

中産階級のババアが作ったメシだ ってことぐらいよ！

i.e., [complete sentence as a clause] + ってこと (= ということ) + ぐらいよ！

You can use って as a casual version of という. Typical words that follow this kind of って include ことは, ことぐらい, わけ, ほどの, and every noun that often follows という (e.g., 人 as in 田中って人知らない？). You can also use つか or つーか for ってか at the head of a sentence in very informal speech. Here's an example dialogue where every って (or つー) is the casual version of という:

A: 別に何ってわけじゃないんだけど、まあ、その、なんでお前今日スカートはいてんの？
Not for nothing, but, er..., why are you wearing a skirt today?

B: ...スカート似合わない女で悪かったな。バカ！
I know I don't look good in a skirt. SORRY ABOUT THAT!

A: いや、悪いってことはないけど…　つーか似合ってるし。…えっ？ってことはお前女だったのか！
N-no. I didn't mean it. Actually you do look cute... Wait a sec. OMG you're a she?!

B: どういう意味だよ！女だってことぐらいすぐに気づけよ！
What do you mean by that?! Are you saying you didn't know that?!

A: ってことは結局俺ホモじゃないんじゃん！よっしゃぁぁぁぁぁぁ！！
So I wasn't gay for you after all!! Yeahhhhhhh!!!!!!

magamo Wrote:...

Haha. The truest love, surpassing gender and sexuality itself. ;p That's why Ikuta Toma should've gotten the girl... and why that fellow from Coffee Prince got the girl! ;p

lanval Wrote:Can someone enlighten me regarding the kou yatte?

nest0r Wrote:こうやって
(conj) thus; in this way

I'll just add - it might help also to think of it as やる being a casual する. And こう　from こう, そう, どう (like この, その, どの.) So you might have recognized こうして, which has the same meaning. You probably already know そうして and どうして too.

こうやって+verb has the "Verb in this way" sense. Similar to こういう風に. When it's used as a conjunction, it the sense of "thus" (which is a contorted "in this way" if you think about it).

shang Wrote:I'm reading a review of a game called "勇者３０" here and I have been bashing my head against this sentence for some time now:

各アクションを行なうのに制限時間は特に設定されていないものが多い。

制限時間は設定されていない I guess would mean something like "there is no set time limit", but how should I interpret the 特に here? The ものが多い at the end I guess is a variation of the ことがある pattern, so something like "There are lots of times when...". Am I right? I'm also not sure how to link the first sentence to the second so that it would make sense. "For performing each action..."? I'm trying to avoid translating this too literally, but it's just not clicking for me.

DIJG has a very helpful summary of もの in this usage. Apologies if you already knew any/most/all of this.

"Mono (da) is used to change the structure 'X wa Verb Phrase', which describes an action taken or received by X, to the structure 'X wa Noun Phrase da', which is used to present a characteristic of X. [It] frequently appears in newspaper articles. It is used when a sentence provides such information as a purpose, a reason, a cause or specific information about something introduced in the previous sentence. The copula after mono is frequently dropped in this usage."

So, in ultra literary terms, the sentence is discussing a characteristic of 'time limit to perform each action' with regards to 'thing introduced in previous sentence'. The characteristic in question is 'is not established specifically'. This all goes together to form the subject of the sentence, which is then modified by 'many'. In other words: [This is because][a characteristic of] time limit[s] to perform each action [is that they are] not established specifically [in] many [RPGs].

Or, in English: [This is because] many [RPGs] don't have specific time limits for performing each action.

IceCream Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:In informal speech, hearsay is often reported in the following manner:
...(ん)ですって (female speakers only) [...(ん)だって informal]

watch out to not confuse it with this ますって or ですって, used to mean something like, "i already said this / i already told you / im telling you!" this is used without the ん.
e.g. 違いますって、いいですって etc. both men and women use it.

That would be just a variation of the informal って as a quoting particle (with assumed '言う'), no? Weird, I didn't notice the bit about the (potentially omitted?) explanatory quoting version as 'female speakers only' in the notes I pasted. I guess it's just related to formality...

I've also read that having, say, PL3 endings (like -います) in the quoted sentence indicates it's a direct quote (though this would require an explicit reference to a speaker as well I think), but in conjunction with colloquial って (with implied 言う after it) I can see it adding that kind of emphasis like 'already' in the context of a speaker referring to something they just said. (JMW mentions that most often, what's quoted, complete or not, is left PL2, and the larger sentence ending determines the politeness level. Some other Google Book mentioned that when you add something of a higher politeness level than the overall sentence modifier, this adds emphasis. Now I'm rambling... )

I don't know, think I'll just worry about more stuff like that as I come to them. ;p

I usually don't respond in this thread - outside my comfort level. When I do know the answer, I have no idea what level of explanation would be good. But I wondered if we weren't relying too heavily on Magamo先生. I figured he deserved a bit of a break. Unfortunately, I don't know that many of us could come up with the helpful and amusing dialogues and examples he does!

Incidentally, Magamo, "So I wasn't gay for you after all" sounds a bit Borat-ish or Great Gatsby-ish (different "gay"). Probably would be: "So I'm not gay after all." I wouldn't want you be at a bar one day and say: "Sorry, I'm not gay for you." Some ambiguity there. haha (You might also leave off the "Yeahhhhh!!!!!!!!" (unless of course your imaginary character held view that being gay is a bad thing.)

IceCream Wrote:lolol magamo & thora.

nest0r, i haven't heard your version yet either, so i'l look out for it.

but, a more causal way of using って to say that you already said somthing is　ってば / だってば

I didn't want to mention the だってば for fear of being called a Narutard.

Hahaha, Magamo! =)
I got it, thanks!

I started on Tokyo Dogs today. A question:

ニューヨークに　たこ焼きの屋台が出てるわけがねえんだよ。
嘘じゃないですって。 「焼きたて　ほくほくやで～」って言ってましたもん。
大阪人が？
いや　黒人が。
絶対　嘘だ！

They´re talking about whether or not there´s a たこ焼きの屋台 in NY. My problem is the ほくほくやで part. I know that ほくほく means something along the lines of dry and tender, when it comes to food. Is it then ほくほく屋, as in 酒屋, or? It can probably also be ほくほく　+ や + で...

Anyone? =)

やで means something roughly like だよ in dialect

harhol Wrote:

shang Wrote:各アクションを行なうのに制限時間は特に設定されていないものが多い。

DIJG has a very helpful summary of もの in this usage. Apologies if you already knew any/most/all of this.

"Mono (da) is used to change the structure 'X wa Verb Phrase', which describes an action taken or received by X, to the structure 'X wa Noun Phrase da', which is used to present a characteristic of X. [It] frequently appears in newspaper articles. It is used when a sentence provides such information as a purpose, a reason, a cause or specific information about something introduced in the previous sentence. The copula after mono is frequently dropped in this usage."

I'm not convinced this is that usage of もの, largely because this sentence follows neither of the two forms the DIJG lays out (which are 1. もの [だ | である |etc] at the end of the main sentence, or 2. a sentence like that quoted with と). If the authors had intended the entry to apply to more general use of もの as a nominaliser they wouldn't have put "(da)" in the heading (compare the entries for こと in DBJG).

Thanks. Now I don't understand the のが in sentences like this:
いろいろ さがした のが みつからないんです.
And the wo in
りょうり を つくる のを 1いち じかん かかります.
Never had that in uni, where can I find any info about that? I didn't see it in Kanzen Master.. ><

And thirdly: why does my solution say:
dareka no naite iru koe ga kokoemasu, and not wo kikoemasu? And what does "dareka no naite" mean anyway?

lanval Wrote:Thanks. Now I don't understand the のが in sentences like this:
いろいろ さがした のが みつからないんです.

If you insert a comma after the が does that make it clearer to you?

Quote:And the wo in
りょうり を つくる のを 1いち じかん かかります.

Are you sure this one is right? I thought かかる was intransitive (doesn't take を)...

Quote:And thirdly: why does my solution say:
dareka no naite iru koe ga kokoemasu, and not wo kikoemasu?

It's が here because 聞こえる is intransitive -- it never takes を.

Quote:And what does "dareka no naite" mean anyway?

You've broken the sentence in the wrong place -- try looking at it as だれか の [ 泣いている 声 ] and see if it makes more sense.