SammyB Wrote:From Core6k:

これまでで最高の結果が出たよ。

I've come across this までで a few times... Why is the second で needed here? Would the sentence also be grammatically acceptable without it?

Grammatically acceptable but wouldn't really mean the same thing. I've explained this before:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...3#pid91713

Although that explanation may not directly help you figure this one out.

callmedodge:
てみる means "try something and see the results"
ようとする means "try something" and either not succeed, or it's sort of like "about to do X". Your example sentence is odd because you usually need something else after it to show what happened when you tried to drink that prevented you from doing so.

じゃあ、ワインを飲んでみる - OK, I'll try drinking wine (and see if I like it or not)
ワインを飲もうとした時、地震が起きた - I was just about to drink the wine when an earthquake happened.

Your explanation was helpful but it's still a bit unclear.

I see now that これまで最高の結果が出た would mean something like "So far, we had the best result". <---- Perhaps compared to other people's results or something.

Whereas これまでで最高の結果が出た "it was the best result so far". <---- Perhaps compared to other results they had obtained previously.

Am I on the right track differentiating the meaning here? Obviously without context it's all a bit more difficult.

これまで最高の結果が出た doesn't make sense to me and I may be wrong that it's grammatically correct. I feel like you need some kind of continuing verb or state. If it's supposed to mean "The best results up to now", you need to make これまで part of the modifier (これまでの最高の結果).　(EDIT: Although google does have hits for this phrase so I may be off-base in saying it's wrong.)

これまでで最高の結果が出た may actually mean the same thing as これまでの最高の結果が出た. Just looking at google hits I'm having a hard time seeing the difference between これまでの最高 and これまでで最高. It almost looks like it's just "Up to now, the best" and "The best up to now" or something like that.

There are a lot of hits for これまで最高 also and it also seems to mean the same thing. But it's less common than the first two.

Long story short, I have no idea what's going on.

I emailed a company the other day about a product I'm ordering. Some grain stuff. And I was trying to figure out if they used pesticides and other -cides.

I got back:
お問い合わせありがとうございます。
ライ麦粒は農薬を使用しております。
北海道は他の地域より気温が低く害虫は少ないので他の地域よりは少ない量で済むようです。
いかがいたしますか？

I replied back but now I'm second guessing myself. They did say "Yes, pesticides are used on the rye seed." but now that I reread the 4th sentence I can't help but feel it says (now, my second guess) "Hokkaido has a milder climate and therefore fewer bugs and lesser output(?)." Originally I thought it was explaining "Hokkaido, compared to other regions, has a milder climate and so it has more pests. Compared to other regions it produces less output (therefore we use pesticides).

Er, the question is. Was I originally correct? There are pesticides used and its because of the milder climate and lower yield.

"Hokkaido has lower temperatures compared to other regions, and fewer harmful insects, therefore we are [probably] able to make do with a lower amount [of pesticides] compared with other regions."

Edit again: I'm not quite sure about よう, but I think it's in the sense of "I don't know for sure, but it's probably the case."

お問い合わせありがとうございます。
Thank you for your question.
ライ麦粒は農薬を使用しております。
We do use pesticide on our rye.
北海道は他の地域より気温が低く害虫は少ないので他の地域よりは少ない量で済むようです。
Compared with other regions though Hokkaido has a milder climate and fewer pests, and so the amount (of pesticide required) is reduced.
いかがいたしますか？
Has this answered your question?

と思いますけどぺらぺらではないから間違い点があったかも知らない。

「・・・本当よという風ににっこりと微笑んだ。」
I understand this, just wondering what the よ is doing. I suspect it's the typical よ usually at the end of a sentence.

「でもそれじゃ危くってしようがないだろう・・・」
"But if.... then it can't be helped." Don't understand the middle and what 危 is.

「あれは野井戸に落っこちたんだって」
This needs the context of someone who has read the book. I'm curious as to what definition of the kanji before 井戸 is being used. 野 brings up quite a lot in dictionaries.

「そのまま首の骨でも折ってあっさり死んじゃえばいいけれど、何かの加減で足をくじくくらいですんじゃったらどうしようもないわね。」
"If one breaks their neck and dies quickly that's good but to some degree if they break their leg and have to live [down there] they can't do much." Excuse my poor translation. I feel I do understand the sentence in it's entirety but I wanted a better grasp on 加減. Dictionaries bring up so many uses so what does it mean in this situation?

Quote:「・・・本当よという風ににっこりと微笑んだ。」
I understand this, just wondering what the よ is doing. I suspect it's the typical よ usually at the end of a sentence.

Yup.

Quote:「でもそれじゃ危くってしようがないだろう・・・」
"But if.... then it can't be helped." Don't understand the middle and what 危 is.

Adjective + って　is similar to noun + だって "Even if it's..."
"But then, it can't help but be dangerous," something like that.

Quote:「あれは野井戸に落っこちたんだって」
This needs the context of someone who has read the book. I'm curious as to what definition of the kanji before 井戸 is being used. 野 brings up quite a lot in dictionaries.

Jay Rubin translates this as "field well." It's a well sitting out in the middle of a field, right?
(Really long time since I read the book and I don't have it to hand.)

Quote:「そのまま首の骨でも折ってあっさり死んじゃえばいいけれど、何かの加減で足をくじくくらいですんじゃったらどうしようもないわね。」
"If one breaks their neck and dies quickly that's good but to some degree if they break their leg and have to live [down there] they can't do much." Excuse my poor translation. I feel I do understand the sentence in it's entirety but I wanted a better grasp on 加減. Dictionaries bring up so many uses so what does it mean in this situation?

The dictionary at dictionary.goo.ne.jp has an example sentence:
どうした加減か実験がうまくいかなかった
The experiment didn't go well for some reason.

So, I'm wondering if 何かの加減 may not be similar to どうした加減.

But すんじゃったら is not from 住む, it's the 済む that means "to settle/finish off (without anything worse happening.)"

"If someone breaks their neck and just dies straight off that's fine, but if for some reason they manage to escape with just a twisted foot, then there's nothing to be done."

yudantaiteki Wrote:callmedodge:
てみる means "try something and see the results"
ようとする means "try something" and either not succeed, or it's sort of like "about to do X". Your example sentence is odd because you usually need something else after it to show what happened when you tried to drink that prevented you from doing so.

Ah, that makes sense. I actually just took the sentence from Tae Kim and left out the second part. Thanks!

Another one. Not even sure now but I`ve stumbled upon this:

彼女は解決策を思いついた。

It`s specifically the 思いついた I`m curious about. Is the ついた　derived from 着く with the verb having a literal meaning of "Arrive at the thought of..."

Similar case with: 考えつく?

Edit: Quoting issues.

思い付く(P); 思いつく 【おもいつく】 (v5k) to think of; to hit upon; to come into one's mind; to be struck with an idea; (P)

callmedodge Wrote:It`s specifically the 思いついた I`m curious about. Is the ついた　derived from 着く with the verb having a literal meaning of "Arrive at the thought of..."

Similar case with: 考えつく?

These compound verbs are in some sense derived from verb1 + verb2, but in a lot of cases the meaning is not actually transparently obvious from the meaning of the two component verbs. I think overall it's generally better to just treat the compound verb as a word in its own right with its own unique meaning (as SammyB points out, that's how dictionaries generally handle them).

(There are some suffixes which are "productive" and basically can be applied to any verb, eg V + hajimaru to start doing V; I'm not referring to those here.)

当店では１０代の女性向きに作ったかわいいアクセサリーを扱っております。

This example sentence sounds odd to me, because actually it has to be 向け, right?! 向け　shows that something is especially made for X and in this case it's about accessoires for females, isn't it? Such example sentences confuse me ;_;

TheVinster Wrote:「でもそれじゃ危くってしようがないだろう・・・」
"But if.... then it can't be helped." Don't understand the middle and what 危 is.

i have a feeling this is probably a mistype of 危なくて （危ない）。

@Tori:
No, it can also be 向き. Google says 向け is about twice as popular as 向き, but not rare in this situation.

Here's another example sentence: ●小中学生向きに編集された新聞 a newspaper edited for the elementary and junior high school age group.

@IceCream

小中学生向きに編集された新聞 a newspaper edited for the elementary and junior high school age group.

This sentence does not sound awkward, because the newspaper could be also read by adults/those learning Japanese. There would be nothing wrong about that.

In case of 女性向きに作ったアクセサリー it sounds odd, because it sounds like also men could use those accessoires. At least that's what the explanation in DoAJG for 向け・向き says.

[Edit]
Interestingly, google corrected me when I entered "●小中学生向きに編集された新聞" to "●小中学生向けに編集された新聞" lol

Not men necessarily, but girls younger than 10 and older than 19 could use the accessories.

(Or men! I don't judge!)

um, well, i can't comment on the DOBJG as i don't have it, sorry.　But as far as i'm aware, 向き just means "suitable for" or "appropriate for". I have no idea other than that... (i can't find a similar rule in 大辞泉・大辞林 so...)

Here's another sentence from KOD though (just 向き though, don't know whether that affects DOBJG's rule?):
●その柄は女性向きです. That pattern is for women.

Yeah, Google seems to want to correct it to 向け, but there's still millions of matches for 向きに作った so i'm gonna ignore them

On Monday I have to do an activity at an event with some Junior high kids. So I'm doing a conversation activity where they talk to each other but have a card on their forehead that has an action that the other person must do. They must guess the action from the other person's behavior/etc. I'm putting Japanese on the card because I want to make sure no one is left confused as to some of the English, although most of it should be good enough for some. I want to check to make sure this Japanese will be understandable on a small card.

Look at the ground 地面に見て
Look at the sky 空に見て
Stare intensely at me 私を熱心に見つめる
Stare at your watch 腕時計を見つめる
Be shy 照れそうで
Be happy 幸せそうで
Be sad 悲しそうで
Be macho マッチョそうで
Talk loudly 大声で
Talk softly 静かにで
Forget your lines 自分の台詞を覚えにくいで
Read a book and talk 本を読みながら話す
Listen to music and talk 音楽を聞きながら話す
Do your hair and talk 髪をメイクしながら話す
Play video games and talk ゲームをしながら話す
Use your cell phone and talk 携帯を使いながら話す
Be very tired 激しく眠いそうで
Walk your dog and talk 犬を散歩しながら話す
Be very tired after just exercising 強い運動ばかり後そうで

vix86 Wrote:Look at the ground 地面に見て
Look at the sky 空に見て

Should both be を.

Quote:Talk softly 静かにで

静かに usually means "be quiet/shut up" so I think for this you need something like 小さい声で. You might also need しゃべる after this one and the previous one.

Quote:Forget your lines 自分の台詞を覚えにくいで

I'm not entirely sure on what the students are supposed to do here, but 自分の台詞を忘れそう or something like that (you can't put で after -i adjectives or other particles)

Quote:Be very tired 激しく眠いそうで

すごく眠そうで (で what?)

Quote:Be very tired after just exercising 強い運動ばかり後そうで

運動したばかりの疲れで (で what?)

IceCream Wrote:

TheVinster Wrote:「でもそれじゃ危くってしようがないだろう・・・」
"But if.... then it can't be helped." Don't understand the middle and what 危 is.

i have a feeling this is probably a mistype of 危なくて （危ない）。

It's 危なくて, but I doubt it's a mistype (unless TheVinster mistyped it!). I see なくて written as なくって commonly in dialogue (I guess it's expressing some real way of pronouncing it that I never notice). And Murakami often chooses to include or not include kana in non-standard ways after verbs or adjectives in kanji.

I think I remember asking my Japanese tutor about this sentence when I went through Norwegian Wood.

@IceCream @Fillanzea

I asked a native Just for your reference.

当店では１０代の女性向きに作ったかわいいアクセサリーを扱っております。
>女性のために作ったので、*特に*女性のためだってことなんじゃないか？女性向け　ほうが自然じゃない！？

>>トリ君の言うのが正しいと思うよ。

yudantaiteki Wrote:

vix86 Wrote:Look at the ground 地面に見て
Look at the sky 空に見て

Should both be を.

Quote:Talk softly 静かにで

静かに usually means "be quiet/shut up" so I think for this you need something like 小さい声で. You might also need しゃべる after this one and the previous one.

Quote:Forget your lines 自分の台詞を覚えにくいで

I'm not entirely sure on what the students are supposed to do here, but 自分の台詞を忘れそう or something like that (you can't put で after -i adjectives or other particles)

Quote:Be very tired 激しく眠いそうで

すごく眠そうで (で what?)

Quote:Be very tired after just exercising 強い運動ばかり後そうで

運動したばかりの疲れで (で what?)

で話す? The context of the activity should be clear enough that these don't need to be full sentences. The cards aren't large enough for full sentences either.

EDIT: The point of the activity is to guess their card on their forehead based on the other person's actions. They will be introducing themselves to each other.

@Tori: that's kinda odd. I thought Kenkyusha was compiled by natives?

Are you sure that you're not overthinking this? Because yes, 向け is more commonly used. However, think about how にふさわしい or 適している is used. Think about how "suitable for" is used in English.

"This is a coat that is suitable for women". It says nothing about men and whether they can or can't wear it. (i.e. the NOT group is underspecified). It means that it's been designed to meet women's popular tastes, or that it's been tailored for a woman's body. There's no reason you shouldn't use "suitable" rather than "for", though yes, "for" would be a much more common choice here, just like 向けに is.

4 〔適すること〕 suitability.
●万人向きである suit all tastes
・輸出向きの 《toys》 for export
・夏向きの服 clothes for summer wear; summer clothes
・事務所向きの部屋 a room 「suitable [fit] for an office.
●小中学生向きに編集された新聞 a newspaper edited for the elementary and junior high school age group.
●…向きの for…; suitable for…; suited 「for [to be]…; to sb's taste
・家庭向きの女性 a family-oriented woman
・万人向きのデザイン a design for all tastes
・映画向きの小説 a novel suitable for making into a film.
●その柄は女性向きです. That pattern is for women.
・彼は商売向きではない. He is not 「very businesslike [business-oriented].
向き不向き
●人にはめいめい向き不向きがある. Each person 「has his or her forte [is useful in his or her own way].
・営業の仕事は向き不向きがある. Some people are suitable for sales and others aren't.
向き向き
●お客さまそれぞれに向き向きがあるのでよくお話を伺ってから商品をお選びしています. Everyone has their own taste, so we choose products after consulting with customers.

2 〈適していること〉
¶輸出向きの 《toys》 for export
･若者向きの雑誌 a magazine directed at young people
∥ここの料理の味付けは万人向きだ. The seasoning of the food served here suits all tastes.
2 《適合》
━[形] (…にふさわしい) suitable (for…); (人が…に適する) suited [P].
━[前] (…のための) for… 《指記号むく1; むきふむき》.
¶このコートは若い人*向きです This coat is for young people.
･彼はまったく政治家*向きだ He is particularly suited to be a politician.

*************************
(bound, headed) for….
●東南アジア向け綿製品 cotton goods for export to Southeast Asia
・海外向けの放送 broadcast 「for a foreign audience [to foreign countries]
・南米向けのラジオ放送番組 a radio program beamed 「at [on to] South America
・子供向けの科学雑誌 a science magazine (intended) for children; a 「children's [child-oriented] science magazine
・成人向けの映画 an adult movie
・独身者向けのマンション a singles apartment complex
・病人向けの食事 a diet suitable for invalids
・専門家向けに作られた製品ですから, 一般の方には不向きかと思われます. This product is designed for specialists and may not be suitable for the general public.
・大統領の演説は国内向けだった. The President's speech was meant for a domestic audience.

(bound [headed]) for
¶東南アジア向けの輸出品 export goods headed for Southeast Asia
･幼児向けのテレビ番組 a TV program directed at preschoolers.

━[前] (行き先･対象などが) for… 《指記号むき1》.
¶これは子供*向けの番組です This is a 「program for children [children's program].

**********************

Can you see the difference in nuance from these example sentences? Neither of them seem to suggest anything about the "not" group to me. It seems to be more of a difference in nuance than anything.

@Tzadeck: oh yeah!!! that makes more sense, i didn't think of that perhaps it's in some Japanese accents, i dunno, but i've definately heard girls trying to be cutesy doing that with なくて.

I don't know what DoAJG says about the difference between 向き and 向け, but if it says something along the line of one being used only when something is exclusive to certain things/people while the other may accept exceptions, I don't think it's the most accurate explanation.

As I wrote on this forum before, when these two words refer to quite similar concepts, the difference lies in the fact that 向け is more about the target or destination while 向き is more about if something is suitable, appropriate, etc.

It's true that this difference can result in 向け being exclusive to the target in many situations. For example, これは中国向けの製品です means that China is the target, and it's the destination of the product, i.e., the product in question will be exported to Chine (from Japan). In this sense, no country other than China would buy it. And if you say これは中国向きの製品です, certainly the exclusivity disappears because it simply means that the product is the kind of thing that sells well in China. But this is definitely not the essential difference that entails all the other minute differences. The exclusivity occurs simply because it often naturally follows from context. So, basically you can use 向き when you mean something is suitable/appropriate for X rather than X is the target, whether it's elusive to X or not.

Now if you ask if 当店では１０代の女性向きに作ったかわいいアクセサリーを扱っております。is ok or not, it's yes and no. First off, it's grammatically correct, and everyone gets what it means. I wouldn't be surprised if this use is very common among native speakers. But I don't think a professional copywriter would use 向き in this case either.

The reason I personally don't use 向き in this particular example is that this can sound very sexist. For instance, if a shop clerk says これは女性向けの柄です, it simply means that the target market of their products with that particular color, pattern, design, etc. is girls. It's a business decision made rationally by taking into account social norms, traditions and whatnot. If you start accusing the shop of being sexist on the ground that little girls are the main target market of, say, pink shirts with a cute teddy bear, probably you're going too far. But if someone says a certain color is "appropriate" for girls, it can be controversial.

So, I'd say 女性"向け"に作ったかわいいアクセサリー is better, and probably this version is more common in professional and business context. But the reason why this is better and more common isn't because かわいいアクセサリー is only for girls. It's more like it's strange to send a message that cute accessories are appropriate for girls. Since 向け works great without being sexist at all, there is no reason not to use it here.

Just to clarify for those with no access DoAJG – the dictionary has this on 向け:

DoAJG Wrote:a suffix that adds the meaning of “aimed at”

On 向き, the dictionary states:

DoAJG Wrote:The suffix muki looks similar to muke, but it has a different meaning. That is, muki carries the meaning of “facing” or “suitable for”[...]

for what its worth I usually check this stuff with chiebukuro and would also use

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kodanshas-Effect...4770028504