I think there are some contexts where it's better to give instructions in a nonpast form than a command form. Like, let's say that I'm walking past the train ticket machine and someone is having trouble putting in money. I think お金をここに入れる んです is probably a more natural way to say it than a command form, because I'm really not giving a command, I'm explaining a procedure. "This is how you do X" is a different kind of thing than "You must do X!", even though we use the imperative in English for both. We use the imperative in English in cookbooks and instruction manuals and that kind of thing, but that isn't true in Japanese and that's just the way it works.

When I wrote "However other parts are like this" I wanted to contrast the ましょう form with the ます form, I was already aware that the ましょう form is used for this purpose, that's a pretty basic thing, it even maps to the English "let's do something". The point has been all along about the ます form apparently used for the same purpose. I am still unclear about this.

This is the impersonal form.

Fillanzea Wrote:お金をここに入れる んです

The money is put in here.

Which can be understood as a general instruction, because there is no other way the thing works. If so, then:まずCDを聞きながら、目で読みます = First, the CD is listened to while reading.

Which is just strange...

It's not passive; I don't see what's strange about "First, you will read the text while listening."

turvy Wrote:Let me post another example:

1. かの最初にあるストーリーピクチャーを見て、どんな内容かを考えましょう。
2. 会話では、CDを聞いて、大体の内容をつかみましょう。
3. 「ナレーション」では：
（A）まずCDを聞きながら、目で読みます。
（B）それからCDといっしょにリピートします。
　...

It's clear that 1 and 2 are instructions. As for A and B I take it as an "instruction" as well but I don't understand conjugation.

?? (A) First, while listening to the CD, (you?) will with (your eyes).
?? (B) Then, (you?) will repeat along with the CD.

the 〜ましょう, let's ~ (or whatever you translate it to) is kind of kindly giving a suggestion. It's suggesting strategic advice on how to approach some problem. The 〜ます bits are tactical, giving concrete instructions to carry out the strategy.

2. while listening to the CD, (you) read with your eyes. *(generic 'you')

at least this is how I interpret the difference in nuance in this case.

Perhaps it could also be thought of as: One ......(does something).
As in: 'One puts the money in here' or 'One reads the text while listening'

Also I was thinking that the reason that English cookbooks use the imperative form could be simply for the sake of brevity. In Japanese this is less of an issue because the subject can be easily omitted.

I was taught that 'instructions' and 'indirect command' are 2 related uses of non-past verbs. (btw, it was recently noted here that た-form of verbs can also be indirect commands.)

In terms of politeness, indirect command lies between plain and polite imperative:

　　Direct command　(polite): 　座りなさい　　　　　　　Please sit

　　Indirect command: 座る！／座るんだ　　　　Sit!

　　Direct command (blunt): 座れ！　　　　　　　　　 Sit!

Intonation indicates whether an utterance is a basic declarative or an indirect command:
座る　　I'll sit vs. 　　　　座る！ 　　Sit!

Negative　forms:
　　
　　Indirect command: 泣くんじゃない！ Don't cry!/Stop crying!
Direct command (blunt): 　泣くな！　　　　　

(btw, note that imperative isn't used only for ordering people around. In certain contexts, it can signal permission, consent, recommendation, warning, etc. (-from book on modality))

The "instructions" use (recipes, manuals, "how to" shows, etc.) gets categorized by my teacher as a form of indirect command. Fillanzea already mentioned that it avoids any direct command or favour-request forms (~てください.) As with regular use of non-past form, Vます is more polite than Vる (and more common in speech.) (It's aimed at unspecified readers/viewers - I had just assumed it has a weaker sense of command than above.)

The ambiguity between future tense and modalities (such as command) exists in English too. Some people take the view that there is no future tense, only various modalities. Thinking about the "shall" interpretation of the Japanese volitional, I suppose it's not so surprising that the lines between these get blurred.

The bus will arrive at 8 pm. (plain future)
You WILL eat all your green veggies! (command)
The borrower will/shall pay interest on the loan. (obligation)

Vましょう:

As others mentioned, the volitional is also considered an indirect command in contexts like a classroom where it's more of a command than an invitation to do something together. (It reminds me of annoying doctors who say things like "Let's stick out our tongue.") ;p In regular situations, volitional can be a suggestion to do something together or an offer to do something which benefits the hearer.

@turvy, ~た verbs and ~るverbs (non-past) each have a few different uses, so try not get thrown off if you encounter examples which don't seem to fit past or present/future tense. There are a few odd ones. [edited]

Can anyone help - I wonder what the third 漢字 in the following screenshot is?
I couldn't find anything similar that would make sense... it's supposed to be a truly technical term.
Thanks for helping out!

http://t02.img-up.net/?up=unknown-ka5f2f.PNG

自動搬送かな

yeah 自動搬送 for sure

I'm currently in the middle of reading a book called カーマロカ　――将門異聞. There I discovered a writing for the color red that I haven't seen before.

もう一人の男は、まるで対照的な、すらりとした細面の美男だった。色白く、鼻梁は細く、唇は朱を塗ったように紅い。

Because I got curious, I wanted to know the difference between red, written as 赤い and the red in this sentence 紅い. Besides possibly being just a simple choice of style I still would want to know what the difference is between both, if there is any at all, can somebody explain, please?

I found a couple of different opinions when I looked online, with posts from Japanese people.

One person said that in modern use 赤い covers a broader range of redish colors, whereas 紅い would refer to a color close to that of blood. (Certainly 紅[くれない] refers to a crimson red)

Another person said that 紅い might be used more when contrasting a color with another (but maybe he meant only in compounds like 紅白?).

Also lipstick is 口紅 so there would be a tendency to describe lips as 紅. It's usually translated as "crimson".

I'm a bit confused on this one. I accidentally realized I have two of the same entry in my deck, but they sort of conflict.

彼はやたらに話しかけてきた。 - He persistently tried to talk to me.

Looking up on ALC and in the dictionary, the entries seem to suggest that this doesn't mean "persistent" or "frequently" at all. But may "less often" or something like たまたま maybe? Could the translation be better? This is core6k.

vix86 Wrote:I'm a bit confused on this one. I accidentally realized I have two of the same entry in my deck, but they sort of conflict.

彼はやたらに話しかけてきた。 - He persistently tried to talk to me.

Looking up on ALC and in the dictionary, the entries seem to suggest that this doesn't mean "persistent" or "frequently" at all. But may "less often" or something like たまたま maybe? Could the translation be better? This is core6k.

Hmm, dunno, my dictionary lists words similar to persistent. Progressive 和英辞典 gives "(過度に) excessively, immoderately", which I think are pretty close to what persistent means in this context.

Persistent wouldn't be the best word to associate with やたら on its own, but in this particular context the meaning of やたら is pretty similar to persistent.

What dictionary are you using?


大辞林 pretty much gives the definitation as "without moderation or restraint".

Nagareboshi Wrote:Because I got curious, I wanted to know the difference between red, written as 赤い and the red in this sentence 紅い.

It's a way to make the reader think of a specific tonality of red, in this case crimson.
I love when the author uses different kanji to give a different nuance. Some examples I remember from visual novels:

Both 疾い (from 疾風) and 迅い (from 迅速) for はやい
昏い (from 黄昏) for くらい
蒼い あおい for azure
碧い あおい for turquoise (I think)

I punched it in on Weblio (やたら） and got:
秩序や節度のないさま. Which I took to mean "not regularly or in moderation. So how that comes out to mean "persistent" is what had me confused.

The problem is that you are translating 秩序 wrong.

Interestingly I just stumbled upon 薄肉 which signifies 'light red' but also 'thin wall'. Only some dictionaries provided me with the second meaning.

Do you know other examples of words carrying a double meaning? Would be interesting...


btw: yeah, Weblio provided the meaning I was actually looking for, pretty good... Tangorin and Rikaichan didn't...

Tzadeck Wrote:I found a couple of different opinions when I looked online, with posts from Japanese people.

One person said that in modern use 赤い covers a broader range of redish colors, whereas 紅い would refer to a color close to that of blood. (Certainly 紅[くれない] refers to a crimson red)

Another person said that 紅い might be used more when contrasting a color with another (but maybe he meant only in compounds like 紅白?).

Thank you for looking it up for me! I haven't been reading 紅 as くれない but as あかい. The reason is that I understood 朱を塗ったように紅い to mean crimson, read あけ. But this can also mean vermillion, read either あけ or しゅ. Therefore my interpretation of this part of the sentence was "lips painted in a crimson like red." Just to make sure that I got it right this time, crimson is くれない and vermillion has to be あけ/しゅ right?

Odin89 Wrote:

Nagareboshi Wrote:Because I got curious, I wanted to know the difference between red, written as 赤い and the red in this sentence 紅い.

It's a way to make the reader think of a specific tonality of red, in this case crimson.
I love when the author uses different kanji to give a different nuance. Some examples I remember from visual novels:

Both 疾い (from 疾風) and 迅い (from 迅速) for はやい
昏い (from 黄昏) for くらい
蒼い あおい for azure
碧い あおい for turquoise (I think)

Thanks for the explanation! And I love how this author describes the facial features of the characters, their personalities, and the scenes where everything takes place. It is easy to imagine it all.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Also lipstick is 口紅 so there would be a tendency to describe lips as 紅. It's usually translated as "crimson".

I see, thank you! And, because you brought up the lipstick example; I think that the word in question was looking somehow familiar because of this kanji, and because lips where described, I could correctly guess that the color was meant even before I was looking anything up at all.

朱を塗ったように紅い I think is read as しゅ　を　ぬった　ように　あかい. At first I didn't pay attention to the okurigana and was just reading it as くれない but usually that doesn't have okurigana (and it doesn't really make any sense because くれない is not an -i adjective). The microsoft IME has 紅い（あかい） as a choice, so I'm sure that's it.

待ちに待っていた電話だった. Does it have any special meaning or is it just "it was the call I have been waiting for"?

Why not simply 待っていた電話だった?

Context:
A leaves B on short notice in a hairy situation, telling she will provide an explanation by telephone call on a specific time frame (i.e. tonight). This is B's narration of receiving that call.

Hey everyone.

I'm working on some (older) maps at work (date isn't actually known, but there's some older forms showing up, along with the old system of measurement), and this came up:
位置面積

Any search I've done comes up with it phrased more like 位置・面積, and on a lot of sites, but I can't for the life of me figure out what they mean together; separately I know it's "position" and "area". It looks like it's pretty common.

For context:
水田普通畑及桑畑の位置面積を表はす点図

Anyone have an idea of what 位置面積 should mean?

qwarten Wrote:待ちに待っていた電話だった. Does it have any special meaning or is it just "it was the call I have been waiting for"?

Why not simply 待っていた電話だった?

Context:
A leaves B on short notice in a hairy situation, telling she will provide an explanation by telephone call on a specific time frame (i.e. tonight). This is B's narration of receiving that call.

待ちに待っていた電話だった. ~ It was the long-awaited phone call.

待ちに待つ ~ to wait for a long time (or so says the dictionary)

raeesmerelda Wrote:Hey everyone.

I'm working on some (older) maps at work (date isn't actually known, but there's some older forms showing up, along with the old system of measurement), and this came up:
位置面積

Any search I've done comes up with it phrased more like 位置・面積, and on a lot of sites, but I can't for the life of me figure out what they mean together; separately I know it's "position" and "area". It looks like it's pretty common.

For context:
水田普通畑及桑畑の位置面積を表はす点図

Anyone have an idea of what 位置面積 should mean?

Probably just "position and area"?