vix86 Wrote:Separate question. You can't actually use はくしょん as a verb can you? I mean that'd be like saying in English "He achoo'ed." which is understandable but a little odd to my ear.

I've never heard it used like that. I've always heard people say くしゃみをする　or くしゃみが出る
Similar to 咳

I've been reading through the visual novel はなひらっ！, and I've come across a line I can't figure out. I've included additional lines for context, but the one I'm interested is bolded.

あまね：それにはまず、愛する人の口づけを……
佳織：なにー！？
小春：わー、可愛い猫のぬいぐるみ♪
佳織：この猫のぬいぐるみにでもしときなさい
あまね：んづゅっ
あまね：ぷはっ、これじゃなーい

And this is the image that goes along with this particular scene: http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd252...irac_1.png

From the context, I'm guessing it means something like, "Just do it to this stuffed cat", but I have no idea how correct that is.

佳織 is talking about the 口づけ that she would do to her 愛する人.
I'm not sure what's going on in the story, but you're right, Kaori is telling Amane to just kiss the stuffed cat.

Although note that にする is "decide on X" or "make it X", it's not the same as をする although here it's close to the same meaning.

Yucalus Wrote:佳織：この猫のぬいぐるみにでもしときなさい

By the way, grammatically it's from this
に でも して おきなさい
Of course, the てお slurs into と. The して is from する, the おき is from おく. でも means something like "or something."

"Just do it to (literally: make it/decide on) this stuffed cat or something."
This translation doesn't really include おく because it's hard to put in English easily, but the おく sounds like it just means "So that in the future when you need to actually kiss you'll have practiced." You'll find this as て + おく in most textbooks/grammar guides.

Thanks, that helped a lot. I figured しときなさい was a contraction, but I couldn't grok why おく would be there.

怠けていないで、手伝って。
"Stop slacking and help me!"

(From Core2k, so there's no extra context)

Can anyone tell me what type of で is being used after 怠けていない?

My first inclination is to think of it as the -でください minus ください で(Btw, is there a shorter term for this? "Request で" maybe?), but I don't think I've seen this type of で used with the V+ている form nor twice in a sentence before.

Thanks!

Onelove_yo Wrote:怠けていないで、手伝って。
"Stop slacking and help me!"

(From Core2k, so there's no extra context)

Can anyone tell me what type of で is being used after 怠けていない?

My first inclination is to think of it as the -でください minus ください で(Btw, is there a shorter term for this? "Request で" maybe?), but I don't think I've seen this type of で used with the V+ている form nor twice in a sentence before.

Thanks!

I think it's just the -te form of the negative of iru.

Xないで means "Without doing X". (なくて would be the normal -te form of ない)

As usual, DOBJG has a good discussion of ~nai de and nakute. Some extracted points:

* If a nai de clause expresses something one is expected to do, the translation is 'without ~ing', but if not, it is 'do not do ~ and ~', as in Ex. (a).

(a) 中田さん は 大阪 に 行かないで 京都 に 行った。
Mr. Nakada didn't go to Osaka; he went to Kyoto.

* ~nai de is often used to combine two sentences but can also be used with kudasai, hoshii, morau, and oku.

© まだ帰らないでください。
Please don't go home yet.

[more examples given in text]

* ~nai de is used only with verbs. It cannot be used with adjectives.

* ~nai de can be replaced by nakute only when the nai de clause indicates some cause for human emotion which is expressed in the main clause. Otherwise, the nakute version is unacceptable. [examples given in text]

nadiatims Wrote:It's a sentence connecting word (what do you call those again?)

A conjunction?

yudantaiteki Wrote:Xないで means "Without doing X". (なくて would be the normal -te form of ない)

Ah, ok. I only learned that rule a short while ago, so I'm not really used to how it's used yet. Thanks.

Can someone please confirm my impression that in very formal / religious / business japanese, ending with a -masu stem is essentially a more formal version of a -teimasu conjugation?

also would this be considered keigo, and if so sonkeigo or kenjougo??

thanks

dtcamero Wrote:Can someone please confirm my impression that in very formal / religious / business japanese, ending with a -masu stem is essentially a more formal version of a -teimasu conjugation?

also would this be considered keigo, and if so sonkeigo or kenjougo??

thanks

Could you give some example sentences?

I'm totally confused about what you are trying to ask because -teimasu is a -masu stem.

By the stem he means something like 食べ. And no, I don't think that suspicion is correct. I can think of a few special cases where classical 終止形 are used in formal Japanese that happen to be the same as the -masu stems (particularly あり), but it's not a general rule. And it certainly would not be used in spoken "business" Japanese.

Still don't understand the question.

kitakitsune Wrote:Still don't understand the question.

The ます stem is just putting the verb into its regular ます form, but droping the ます itself.
So, 食べる in regular ます form is 食べます and you drop the ます to get the stem 食べ.
帰る in ます form is 帰ります and you drop the ます to get the stem 帰り.

He's asking if a ます stem can be used like ています in formal speech.
So, he's asking: Can 食べ be used as a special formal way of saying 食べています?
Can 帰り be used as a special formal way of saying 帰っています?

I've certainly never heard anything like this, so I wonder where he's getting the idea.

I've never heard of it and it isn't in any of my books. @Dtcamero wouldn't chiebukuro be a better place to ask?

In more formal Japanese you'll find people use the masu stems in the same way as the て-form.

For example:
朝食を食べて学校へ行きました。
朝食を食べ、学校へ行きました。
Same meaning, but the latter is often used in news / fiction etc. They are often mixed to create variation.

I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm definitely sure that a masu stem does not function in the same way as ています. =)

Zorlee Wrote:In more formal Japanese you'll find people use the masu stems in the same way as the て-form.

For example:
朝食を食べて学校へ行きました。
朝食を食べ、学校へ行きました。
Same meaning, but the latter is often used in news / fiction etc. They are often mixed to create variation.

I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm definitely sure that a masu stem does not function in the same way as ています. =)

That's what I thought he was talking about, too. There's a small section in Tae Kim's guide dealing with it: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/formal (under "Sequential relative clauses in formal language")

ok well so then maybe there are two different situations for using the masu-stem, which I was mistakenly thinking were the same thing...

the first being a more formal version of a conjunctive -te verb, which zorlee pointed out, thanks...

but for the second, which comes at the end of the sentence, I have this biblical passage (it's actually the one from pulp fiction)... specifically the なり and possibly the あれ ending too?

「されば、心正しき者の行く道は心悪しき者の利己と暴虐によって行く手を阻まれるものなり。愛と善意の名によりて、暗黒の谷より弱き者を導きたるかの者に神の祝福あれ。なぜなら彼は兄弟を守る者、迷い子たちを救う者なり。主なる神はこう言われる。我が兄弟を滅ぼそうとする悪しき者達に私は怒りに充ちた懲罰を以って大いなる復讐を彼らになす。私が彼らに仇を返すその時、彼らは私が主であることを知るだろう。」

These are examples of forms found in literary style Japanese (older written styles when spoken and written Japanese were different). なり is a form of copula (です). I think あれ is an imperative form of　ある.　(Is the English version something like "May God bless those who...?).

There are different versions of Japanese translations of the bible - some entirely in colloquial style and some using forms from literary Japanese (to make it sound more serious and 'biblical', I suppose.) Think of "thou" and "thee" in some English versions.

thanks Thora, bingo だろう…

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the
tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through
the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike
down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.

...see how much easier it was to answer your question when you gave us an example of what you had in mind? :-)

dtcamero Wrote:The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the
tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through
the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike
down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.

This isn't from the Bible, for the record, haha. Most of it is made up for the movie, especially the first half.