HonyakuJoshua Wrote:@tzadeck i interpreted the comma after よりも to mean that the よりも went to the final noun and not the fukaku kara? did you deduce this from context or is there a grammatical clue in the sentence to suggest it means "older than"?

I just deduced it from context. It's not 100% clear exactly what よりも connects to by grammar alone, but I assumed it was the age of the counting system. The reason I assumed that is that it's not used as commonly as the two mentioned anymore.

oh ok! You are probably right, its just good to know I understood the sentence grammatically to people reading this thread it just goes to show how much knowledge of the subject is when translating.

I'm pretty sure Tzadeck is right that the よりも is contrasting the ages. "These words have been in use even longer than those words." I'm also pretty sure that SomeCallMeChris has it right that 数をあらわしたり、ものを数えるときに使う is modifying 「いち、に、さん、し」や、「ひとつ、ふたつ、みっつ、よっつ」, rather than the topic これ.

"These are words that have been in use even longer than the number and counting words 「いち、に、さん、し」and「ひとつ、ふたつ、みっつ、よっつ」"

spideymike Wrote:I'm also pretty sure that SomeCallMeChris has it right that 数をあらわしたり、ものを数えるときに使う is modifying 「いち、に、さん、し」や、「ひとつ、ふたつ、みっつ、よっつ」, rather than the topic これ.

"These are words that have been in use even longer than the number and counting words 「いち、に、さん、し」and「ひとつ、ふたつ、みっつ、よっつ」"

Well, grammatically it's either modifying 「いち、に、さん、し」や、「ひとつ、ふたつ、みっつ、よっつ」, or it's modifying 言葉 (it can't modify これ because it has to come before whatever it modifies). It could be the former too. They both could make sense but have different meanings.

Ah, I see. My "as opposed to" works, but @Tz is right that yorimo implies something like "even longer before" than the preceding group because even though it's obvious that these words (they are talking about ひ、ふ、み、よ) predate いち、に、さん、し (which are of Chinese origin and were introduced to Japan after the Japanese had already developed their language) it's not immediately obvious they predate ひとつ、ふたつ、みっつ、よっつ ひ as well.

Tzadeck Wrote:Well, grammatically it's either modifying 「いち、に、さん、し」や、「ひとつ、ふたつ、みっつ、よっつ」, or it's modifying 言葉

You are right, of course. I should have said 言葉. I was probably thinking about it semantically rather than grammatically when I said that.

Does it really work to treat it as modifying 言葉? Trying to interpret it that way I find myself treating:

数をあらわしたり、
ものを数えるときに使う、
「いち、に、さん、し」や、「ひとつ、ふたつ、みっつ、よっつ」よりも、古くから使われてきた

as an enumeration of three independent modifiers of 言葉. Is it ok to mix たり, 使う, and 使われてきた in an enumeration like that? It feels clunky.

That's a good point. Using 使う and a form of 使われる to both modify the same noun here really is clunky. Yeah, interpretting it as modifying 言葉 might be 100% wrong, even by grammar alone.

I think tzadeck is right, but my interpretation is grammatically possible if extremely unlikely. Some nouns DO have many clauses modifying them, ie in patents.

Splatted Wrote:「よけなければ当たる！　よければ当てる！」

couldn't it be like the following?

if you don't dodge, you'll be hit (by whatever)!, if you do dodge (I'll) make (something) hit (you)!
eg. using a ball
-> If you don't dodge you'll get hit by the ball! If you do dodge I'll (still) hit you with the ball.

where 当たる is intransitive meaning something like "come into contact" or "collide" and が marked thing is subject and に marked thing is the thing it contacts with. Note: the english word "hit" is transitive which could be the source of confusion.

The car(subject) hit (trans. verb) the tree (object)
車が(subject)木に(target)当たった(intrans. verb)。 = the car collided with the tree =/=the car collided(hit) the tree.

This is why it doesn't really matter whether you use が or に in a lot of cases. The meaning is the same. The rain collided with window. The window collided with the rain.

and 当てる is transitive meaning something like "to make (object) hit/contact (target)."
車を(object)木に(indirect object)当てた(trans. verb)。-> I ran the car into a tree.

nadiatims Wrote:「よけなければ当たる！　よければ当てる！」
couldn't it be like the following?

if you don't dodge, you'll be hit (by whatever)!, if you do dodge (I'll) make (something) hit (you)!
eg. using a ball
-> If you don't dodge you'll get hit by the ball! If you do dodge I'll (still) hit you with the ball.

It's clear from the rest of the story that that's not the case. The case is that the boy is hiding, and after shouting that bit, he shoots the water-gun and she tries to dodge. The story doesn't go into the details of the rules beyond that but it's clear there's only the water gun to dodge, and it's also clear that once she dodges effectively, she's won that round.

The quoted bit comes early enough though that those details aren't apparent until later. What you suggest crossed my mind only to be disproved by the context, but I wonder... -is- it really possible? Are natives as confused by that quote as non-native speakers until they read on and get the context? (If you're reading your native language you'd only be confused for tens of seconds at the most, so it's possible it really is that ambiguous.)

ok.

当てる can mean win/get a prize etc (by succeeding in the desired action eg 矢を的に当てる) so if that meaning is clear from the context it's probably correct.

I was actually mainly responding to Tzadeck who said something to the effect of 当たる is a very funky verb. I don't think this is the case, just that trying to equate it with the english word "hit" means you end up with translations that warp the syntax, leading to possible confusion.

edit:

Tzadeck Wrote:She would probably be marked by に in the first half of the sentence (what would you call that grammatically?), and is the subject in the second half. Incidentally, I think that to do that is probably applying English grammar to Japanese in an incorrect way--she's simply the topic, and that's that!

I think it would be:

（トートが）よけなければ（トートが）（水に）あたる！（トートが）よければ（トートが）あてる。

This is something Shiina Ringo said on 東京事変　last concert :

皆さん、雪の中どうもありがとうございます！ ボンボヤってるかい!?

What`s ボンボヤってる？

jpkuelho Wrote:This is something Shiina Ringo said on 東京事変　last concert :

皆さん、雪の中どうもありがとうございます！ ボンボヤってるかい!?

What`s ボンボヤってる？

"今回はラストということもあり、東京事変LIVEでは珍しくMCも少し長め。 Domestique Bon Voyageと題したツアータイトルを文字って「ボンボヤってる？！」 「ボンボヤってるかぁ～い？！」と言い合って会場を盛り上げたりラストMCでは、..."

Found using google. So basically the tour is called "Domestique Bon Voyage" and ボンボヤってる is Japanization of the term "Bon Voyage", and it's also turned into a verb.

How would you translate "active listening" and "passive listening" into Japanese? I want to explain to a friend about listening to podcasts.

For "active", the only word I can come up with is 積極的, but for passive I've come up with 消極的, 受動, and 受け身. I'm not sure what is the most appropriate.

I think you would have to explain what the concepts mean -- many English speakers don't know what those terms mean, and I have a feeling that literally translated into Japanese, almost nobody would know them.

partner55083777 Wrote:How would you translate "active listening" and "passive listening" into Japanese? I want to explain to a friend about listening to podcasts.

For "active", the only word I can come up with is 積極的, but for passive I've come up with 消極的, 受動, and 受け身. I'm not sure what is the most appropriate.

What about just using 注意して聞くこと and 注意しないで聞くこと?

yudantaiteki Wrote:I think you would have to explain what the concepts mean -- many English speakers don't know what those terms mean, and I have a feeling that literally translated into Japanese, almost nobody would know them.

Yeah, that's what I've been doing, but I was hoping someone would have an understandable translation of the technical term.

.

Slowly slogging through Clannad and doing sentence mining with a dictionary along the way, came across this:

やたらと自然が多い町。

From what I can understand, the protag says that he is going around doing whatever comes to his mind at the moment (impulsively - やたら), following spontaneous whims (自然). Then comes 多い町 (many..town?) and I'm stuck.

EDIT: Thanks yudantaiteki! The next sentence too was one I wouldn't have been translate, so thanks for that one too. Sudden difficulty spike it seems.

やたらと自然が多い is a modifier for 町 telling you what type of town it is. The town has a lot of nature (and やたらと indicates the speaker doesn't think that's a good thing). It sounds like maybe this is some rural town? (EDIT: I found the script of the next part; the speaker goes on to criticize how the hills make it take much longer to get to school than it would otherwise.)

From a past JLPT paper:
その小説家は、視力の衰えに脅かされな演ら小説を完成した。

I can't find 演ら in any of my usual dictionaries. Anybody know what it means or how it's read, or is it a typo?

I guess the sentence is saying something like the novelist completed his novel while threatened by weakening eyesight. Or something.

Anyway, as ever, any assistance gratefully received!

I am about 99% sure that's an OCR fail. It would make a lot more sense as その小説家は、視力の衰えに脅かされながら小説を完成した。　
(And your interpretation is correct.)

Okay, that's what I suspected... Thanks!

Today I hit the word 医師 in my core6k and I doubled checked to make sure 医者 was indeed the other word I know for it (sometimes I mix stuff up). I looked this up in EDICT and I noticed something. 医者 has the (sens) tag on the word which means it may not be the best word to use in places. Why or how is the word sensitive? Its the word I learned in my college classes as well, so a bit curious on this one.

vix86 Wrote:Today I hit the word 医師 in my core6k and I doubled checked to make sure 医者 was indeed the other word I know for it (sometimes I mix stuff up). I looked this up in EDICT and I noticed something. 医者 has the (sens) tag on the word which means it may not be the best word to use in places. Why or how is the word sensitive? Its the word I learned in my college classes as well, so a bit curious on this one.

医師 is the legally correct term--medical laws use the word 医師. Likewise, in a newspaper or news program only the word 医師 would be used, and you should do the same when writing formally.

医者 is applied wider than just actual medical practitioners. You could call an accupuncturist 医者, but not 医師. A medical license in Japanese is called 医師免許, so someone without a medical license couldn't call themselves a 医師.

(In the same way, in America and England "nutritionist" isn't a legally protected term, but "dietician" is. I could publish a book and call myself a 'nutritionist' and it would be A-OK legally, but I couldn't call myself a 'dietician' since I don't have a degree in the field)

That being said, most people use the term 医者 for a doctor when talking casually.